Bismarck Tribune - North Dakota News - The rich should have to pay for their own mess

The rich should have to pay for their own mess

Oct 10, 2008 - 04:05:23 CDT

By ARMAN GOPLEN
Bismarck

A few months ago, I commented to a few friends that my three-part plan for corporate America was sock it to 'em, sock it to 'em, sock it to 'em. The remark was made in jest, but at the same time Ihad no idea how bad things were.

The Sept. 18 issue of USAToday stated that the federal government had promised $300 billion to enable people to meet their mortgage payments, and $600 billion to financial institutions. Then we were told that another $700 billion was needed to save the financial markets, and if we didn't do it yesterday, something dire will happen.

Maybe. Do these guys know? Is it possible to work from the other end? Can we pay the people instead of Wall Street?Or do a combination of both?

Whatever the case, the $700 billion could be contributed by the super rich. According Forbes Magazine the combined wealth of the 469 billionaires in the U.S. is $1.6 trillion - over twice the $700 billion required. If each would give 44 percent of his wealth to the government, we'd have the $700 billion.

I suppose that 99 percent of those who read this letter will think my idea is crazy. But why?Most of us know that in a fair world no one would be able to work long enough, hard enough or smart enough to make a billion dollars. Surely someone who has made a billion in our unfair world knows this. Maybe we should push and bully them a little. Maybe a lot. If we ask young people to risk death and devastating injury in dubious adventures in Asia, we shouldn't worry too much about asking old men to part with money they will never need.

So what of the future? It is clear that many rich people need some oversight and control. To that end I suggest a $2 million per year maximum wage, and a $1 billion cap on personal wealth with any excess going to the government. Socialistic? yes. But that is better than what we have, now - which is the government taking from the middle class and giving to the rich.

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Comments

to fiscal conservative wrote on Oct 18, 2008 12:29 AM:

" When you imply that Obama is more fiscally conservative than Bush or Mac it becomes clear that your anti-war stance is your primary cause and fiscal responsability a nice cover. Call yourself what you want but your mask is slipping. "

mom-of-teens wrote on Oct 17, 2008 10:56 PM:

" Dew, kinda of stupid comment, don't you think?? Who says there aren't rich Democrats?? Just because Republicans are greedy and selfish doesn't mean that Democrats don't have the ability to get ahead on their own; people could do much better if it wasn't for the greedy always wanting more than they deserve. And as far as "inquiring minds" go, CLOSED minds don't exactly qualify!!

Quote from Karl Rove "Americans love to hate, hate to think, and fear anyone who does not look like them." Kinda sounds like the attitude toward Obama to me!! Karl Rove is a REPUBLICAN, by the way!!! "

Fiscal Conservative wrote on Oct 17, 2008 9:59 PM:

" The Bush administration and now McCain by his wanting to continue with the same fiscally irresponsible policies is producing Obama Republicans. Not 100% sure I'm there yet but what else is there to vote for? We need to do as Ron Paul said in the Republican Primaries, "It was a mistake to invade Iraq...and we need to get out." He was the only fiscal conservative Republican in the primaries. I wish I could have voted for him.

If we stay in Iraq, we need to let them know they have 6 months to set up their own government and be able to take over. If this doesn't occur, then we start to pump oil to pay for the 1991 Gulf War and this war as well. After enough oil is pumped to pay for this total, then we double that amount into a Swiss or other account to pay for the next country that either can't control itself or harbors "Terrorists." This would be the strongest "Anti Terrorist Message" we could send to the world. Instead of the Current UN, we should have an organization whose central focus is to combat terrorism. "

Dew wrote on Oct 17, 2008 4:49 PM:

" To common sense wrote on Oct 15, 2008 3:49 PM:

" Well if you looked at Obama's tax proposals one could conclude that he thinks anyone over the $250K per year mark is rich, as these are the people he is targeting for the tax increases."

It would seem that way but, what most people do not understand is that Obama will raise ALL the taxes to the Clinton Era.... in which case I do believe my taxes will double even if I do not make 250 Gs! "

L wrote on Oct 17, 2008 3:57 PM:

" It would be interesting to know which party is favored from all the people coming from different walks of life. I know it is not likely to be 100% any one way. What I mean is which party do the majority of professionals vote, blue collar, religous, homeless, people who have recently found themselves needing public assistance, people on their 3rd or 4th generation of living off the system, prisoners, government workers, drug users, self employed, Hollywood. If we could actually see the voting results, it may help us that are undecided to see which side we would like to be a part of. "

ljfrommin wrote on Oct 17, 2008 2:51 PM:

" To ex ND---a lot of us have PC's in our office now! (it's true) and find these sites entertaining during breaks (trying to quit smoking so much). As for lawyers favoring Democrats, my guess is that most of the crooks already in jail also favor Democrat candidates. "

NYxND wrote on Oct 17, 2008 12:00 PM:

" It is getting really difficult to visit these comment boards lately without being offended and disgusted by those who seem (I can only imagine) to never leave their house. I'm guessing posting their angry comments must take up most of the day.

In reference to the demographics of wealth between one party and the other, I just have a few things to say. The modern conservative movement was founded on an outsider intellectual movement; an "Anti-Liberal/Scholarly" Scholarly group of think tanks and magazines. This has led to a social-class warfare prepetrated by the Republican party against east and west coast pointy-headed intellectuals. This disdain for liberal intellectuals has led to a general distaste for the eduacted class as a whole. Now Republicans are alienating entire professions. "Lawyers now donate to the Democratic Party over the Republican Party at 4-to-1 rates. With doctors, its 2-to-1. With tech executives, its 5-to-1. With investment bankers, its 2-to-1. It took talent for Republicans to lose the banking community."(http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/10/opinion/10brooks.html)

The evidence points to the fact that as far as intellect and wealth, The republicans are pushing both away with their unsavory class warfare. How ironic that the policies of the right do absolutely nothing to benefit those who are embracing them. "

ljfrommin wrote on Oct 17, 2008 11:27 AM:

" Aparently Arman is not in a union, for he would know that his pension is tied directly to the stock market. (side note---union pensions now own over 12 times more oil company stock than oil company empoyees do!) "

MamaMia wrote on Oct 17, 2008 8:22 AM:

" Geez Dew! Rich Democrats? Ever hear of 3/4 of Hollywood and all the Kennedys? "

Dew wrote on Oct 16, 2008 11:29 PM:

" mom-of-teens wrote on Oct 16, 2008 5:16 PM:

" LM, or better YET, when everyone is RICH or prosperous in their own right.....who will NEED a handout??? Think of it that way. When people are self reliant, they don't need you "poor" rich Republicans to lean on.

I always wondered why there were no 'rich Democrats! Are they too stupid to make their fortune that they have to rely on handouts to 'get rich'?
Inquiring minds want to know! "

mom-of-teens wrote on Oct 16, 2008 5:16 PM:

" LM, or better YET, when everyone is RICH or prosperous in their own right.....who will NEED a handout??? Think of it that way. When people are self reliant, they don't need you "poor" rich Republicans to lean on. You would all have one problem with that though. Who would be around to make you all feel superior over everyone else?? "

LM wrote on Oct 16, 2008 1:04 PM:

" If you earn from the rich you are in charge of your own destiny. If you take from the rich your destiny is set. If you take from the rich, what reason do the rich have to risk money starting businesses. There will always be people with more money then others. If you continue to take their money, soon everyone will be poor. When everyone is poor, who are we going to expect to hand out the free rides? "

To common sense wrote on Oct 15, 2008 3:49 PM:

" Well if you looked at Obama's tax proposals one could conclude that he thinks anyone over the $250K per year mark is rich, as these are the people he is targeting for the tax increases. But, speaking as one who makes over $250K, I wouldn't consider myself rich by any means. I live comfortably, but not extravagantly. There is a segment of the population like myself, stuck in that just over $250K category that are going to get hammered when Obama implements his new tax policies ensuring that I will never reach that truly "rich" status because I'll be giving it all to Uncle Sam. "

common sense wrote on Oct 15, 2008 3:33 PM:

" does "rich" really have a specific definition? WHat do you define as "rich" Mr. Goplen? "

Online Editor wrote on Oct 15, 2008 12:49 PM:

" To Southpark: Attacking ideas or the story are fine, but not other writers. "

Rollin in the dough wrote on Oct 15, 2008 11:42 AM:

" Wouldn't everyone if given the chance like to be wealthy? There's some real animosity here for those that have done well. Don't fault someone for being sucessful and accuse them of not being a Christian because they have money. That's just stupid! "

MamaMia wrote on Oct 15, 2008 11:17 AM:

" Southpark: I suggest a $200 Obama contribution to start out with, then more as the election nears. They're out on East Rosser and would love to see you! Again, welcome to the party! You rock! "

Southpark wrote on Oct 15, 2008 10:58 AM:

" Mamamia: You live in your own fairy tale world don't you? I am hardly on the "Obama Wagon" as you put it and wouldn't give my hard earned money to either campaign. I have a mind of my own mamamia, unlike you, I can think for myself. Yes, I believe Obama will win because of brainwashed Americans such as yourself. Enjoy your free ride off of all the hard workers backs. "

Richy Rich wrote on Oct 15, 2008 10:31 AM:

" Why so hard on the rich? Is that what we all work for...to be better off then the year before. I also don't know anyone who has worked for someone who is poor! "

NYxND wrote on Oct 15, 2008 9:55 AM:

" I have found that if prepared properly (I like to marinate overnight, then slow roast) the Rich, often tough and gamey, can be quite toothsome. "

MamaMia wrote on Oct 15, 2008 9:52 AM:

" Southpark: Thanks so much for coming around and jumping on the Obama wagon! We appreciate your support. See people, you can reason with some people to a point where they see the truth. God Bless You, Southpark and welcome to the party! P.S. They're still taking contributions out there on East Rosser at the Obama headquarters. "

Dew wrote on Oct 15, 2008 7:44 AM:

" Catalyst: I agree with you that we all should be accountable... I am much older than you and I grew up poor so I learned early on not to waste anything. I will not bore you with the details but believe me, there are not many people more fugile than me. That said, I can understand how the 'poor' people were led to believe that they could own a home without a down payment when the people from ACORN were working to get them into houses they could not afford! If you have a group of people working in your area to help the 'poor' and I do believe they were helping them in many ways, when that group tells a person "YOU do not need a downpayment and just small monthly payment to own a home of your own" don't you think it would be so very, very, very temptiing to go ahead and do it? I mean, these 'big shots' are telling them they can do it and they helped them TO do it! I can not blame those people!
I do blame others for wanting too much, a house , a boat, a new car, a new truck, a jet ski, the kids are dressed to the nines, TVs in each bedroom, all the Game Boys, etc... 'nothing is too expensive for my kid'! I always looked at all the 'toys' these big houses have sitting around in the yards and wondered, what will these people do if one of them loses his/her job for a month. And it is happening! "

To Mama Mia wrote on Oct 15, 2008 7:00 AM:

" Southpark is right. You want to blame everything on the Bush administration, but your own candidate, Obama, was one of those pushing for low income people to be able to get mortgages. He was all for people who couldn't afford homes to be able to get one, after all we needed to be "fair". He also took campaign contributions from Fannie & Freddie, basically in exchange for agreeing to look the other way. So if you want to blame this mess on anyone, look to people like Obama who likes to dole out money like candy. "

dof wrote on Oct 15, 2008 6:38 AM:

" Southpark....A-men, to your last post to MamaMia, it could not have been said better! "

Southpark wrote on Oct 14, 2008 11:04 PM:

" Mama Mia: you need to take off your political madness blinders. If you think this mess is due to one administration, you need to go back to the 5th grade. This mess has been years in the making and is the direct result of mistakes made by both parties. Your distaste for Bush is impairing your ability to make sense. My guess is your distaste for Bush is mostly due to monkey see monkey do like most American's. You will get your wish. Obama is going to win this election. I have no doubt about it. The mainstream media, the campaign money he has magically flowing at his fingertips and all the big shot celebrity endorsements will see to it that he wins. I hope for your sake you are ready to pay the bill for all the big plans he has. If you think all his dreams don't come with a price tag you are sadly mistaken. For those of us that do pay our bills, our mortgages and pay for our own health insurance, we will foot the bill for those that don't. The American dream will only apply to those that don't earn it. Kindof like the younger generation. Its all about "entitlement"..... sad............ "

Catalyst wrote on Oct 14, 2008 4:42 PM:

" I completely agree with you when it comes to accountability, striving to become better off financially, and living beyond his or her means. I am all for people getting up off their rears and making something of themselves, regardless of their situation.

It is very difficult to find a job in a struggling economy. Especially a job that pays the bills. The price of everything goes up at an alarming rate (almost seasonally) yet wages go up annually and not even enough to compensate for the cost of living.

Part of the issue is that we live in a society where we have to have the most, the best, the biggest , and the fastest. I am almost 26 and can attest that my generation lives for now and if they don't change their ways we are going to be in this situation for years to come.

There is no doubt that there needs to be more financial responsibilty in this country. I saw earlier comments stating that it is all the governments fault. BS. I think that Americans are just as guilty. They have every opportunity to look into loans and not buy on impulse. "

Dew wrote on Oct 14, 2008 4:08 PM:

" VoR wrote on Oct 13, 2008 10:53 PM:

" To OLEB-ND, Oh yeah... this economic melt-down is all Clinton's fault.

I don't think the person meant that it was ALL Clinton's fault... nor was it ALL Carter's fault but, YOU and others have been blaming Bush for ALL of it! Everytime one turns around it is Bush's fault! Well, we have the Democrats on tape saying Fannie and Freddie were rock solid, Barney Frank, Maxine Waters, Chris Dodd, Gregory Meeks were putting down the people that WERE trying to get a handle on this! Do you want me to post the tapes again?

VoR also said:
I'm sorry to hear that Obama's tax plan will cause you so much harm. I hope you can manage to scrape by on your quarter million plus annual income after the Bush tax cuts are allowed to expire. "
So are you telling me that everyone will get a tax increase because Obama will raise the taxes to the Clinton years? I thought HE said he would not tax those that make under $250,000. I don't believe Obama can possibly not tax the middleclass, (95% of the people will get a tax cut?) .... 40% of the people do not pay any taxes right now.... "

To Catalyst wrote on Oct 14, 2008 3:46 PM:

" You're right, maybe the middle class do need a break, but you also have to ask the question why? Are they not making ends meet because the cost of living is too high, or is it because they are living beyong their means with houses they can't afford, driving new cars, and buying their kids and themselves expensive clothes. I do make more than $250K/year, but it hasn't always been that way. There was a time when I was making MUCH LESS. But, I always managed to stay within my means and never ever had credit card debt. I lived in a modest home and drove 10 year old cars, and in fact still do so today. My point is that you have to make your lifestyle fit your budget and if you're in debt, then you are simply living beyond your means and need to adjust your spending. I can't imagine expecting the government to bail me out because I bought a house I couldn't afford in the first place. That's just the way I was raised and I don't mean to offend anyone, but there has to be personal accountability instead of blaming the government for the mess we are in. "

VoR wrote on Oct 14, 2008 3:07 PM:

" WASHINGTON (AP) The government put itself four-square into the country's banking business Tuesday, resorting to what President Bush conceded was the unwelcome choice of buying into the system to loosen paralyzed channels of credit.

The president said the decision to buy shares in the nation's leading banks a kind of federal intervention not seen since the Depression era was "not intended to take over the free market but to preserve it."

But the administration was clearly conflicted by the action.

Said Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson: "We regret having to take these actions. Today's actions are not what we ever wanted to do but today's actions are what we must do to restore confidence to our financial system."

At a news conference last month, Bush defended his administration's increasingly aggressive market interventions to deal with the biggest upheavals on Wall Street in seven decades. "

VoR wrote on Oct 14, 2008 3:04 PM:

" To To VoR & To Catalyst: Our national debt is $10 trillion dollars. We have just bailed-out our capital markets by cutting a check from the US Treasury. Explain to me again, Whos taxes should be effected most? "

Catalyst wrote on Oct 14, 2008 2:41 PM:

" I completely agree with you. It should be fair across the board, but we don't need to be pointing fingers at the middle class right now.

Remember what your folks used to say, "Life isn't always fair." This is the same case. There isn't a whole lot we can do right now.

The other thing that you should be aware of is Obama has stated tax breaks for those indivuals and families who save their money. There will probably be a lot of fine print with that and who knows if that will work.

You can't deny that the middle class needs a break right now though. The middle class is the back bone of the U.S. Without the work and services they provide, we would be in a far worse position. "

Catalyst wrote on Oct 14, 2008 2:34 PM:

" Maybe Ross Perot wasn't so crazy with his "Flat Tax" thinking. I agree that you shouldn't be punished for making more money, but I also believe that we do have a responsibility and obligation to help the weak and impoverished of this country.

Let's say I 'donate' another $2,500 a year to the federal government. It won't affect me. I can still put food on the table, pay the bills and give my children a solid education.

This is something that needs to be done. We need take responsibility and get this country out of the situation we are in, because the government sure hasn't taken the lead.

Just for fact, I don't fall in the $250,000 a year group. I live within my means and save my money. I suggest that everyone do the same. "

To Catalyst wrote on Oct 14, 2008 2:20 PM:

" I don't have a problem paying taxes at all. I appreciate the nice roads and the schools and everything else the taxpayer's money pays for. But, my point is that because someone is successful and makes over $250K per year, Obama wants to tax them even higher while the rest of the country gets no tax increase. It's simply not a fair system and I don't believe one should be penalized because they've done well for themselves. I think if you're going to hold taxes for one group you should do it for all, and if you want to increase taxes, then everyone should get an increase. "

To VoR wrote on Oct 14, 2008 2:13 PM:

" Are you just a wee bit jealous of people that have been successful in this country? You seem to have a big old chip on your shoulder about the well-to-do. You've have the same chance as everyone else to strike it rich in this country. Don't hold it against those that have done well for themselves and tax them into oblivion because of it. Jealousy is such an ugly thing. "

Catalyst wrote on Oct 14, 2008 2:00 PM:

" To 'To Voice of Reason' I have no problem paying taxes. Yeah, the tax taken out of my checks take a considerable chunk out that could go to my retirement fund or savings, but to have good streets, federal assistance for families that truly need it, clean water, and money going to education, I have no problem with that.

Without taxes, we don't have the day-to-day things that we appreciate.

Do I agree with unnecessary spending? No. If we want to change how our money is spent, we have to take action here and consider who we have representing our local and state governments and who is mandating our laws.

To finish, if this wasn't an election year no one would be bringing up these topics. I think we need to hold ourselves responsible for bringing these topics to the forefront all of the time. "

VoR wrote on Oct 14, 2008 1:16 PM:

" To voice of reason wrote on Oct 14, 2008 8:02 AM:
" The notion that you're being patriotic by paying taxes is ridiculous. I'm sure the founding fathers never dreamed that we would be taxed to death like we are today. "

Apparently you didn't notice which party has been in control for the last 8 years. This has been an excellent economy for the wealthy. We are a fabulously wealthy nation. The wealthiest in the history of the world, with the highest overall standard of living.

I'm sorry to hear that Obama's tax plan will cause you so much harm. I hope you can manage to scrape by on your quarter million plus annual income after the Bush tax cuts are allowed to expire. "

MamaMia wrote on Oct 14, 2008 8:12 AM:

" Repubs get in for 8 years and mess everything up. Then the Dems get in for 8 years and spend the time cleaning up the mess. Then the Repubs get in and the whole cycle starts again. Life is hard. Go Obama, but be prepared to shovel a lot of Repub you-know-what. "

To voice of reason wrote on Oct 14, 2008 8:02 AM:

" The notion that you're being patriotic by paying taxes is ridiculous. I'm sure the founding fathers never dreamed that we would be taxed to death like we are today. The successful people in this country are being asked to give above and beyond their fair share to the government because there are too many that either cannot or will not take care of themselves. This has nothing to do with being a Christian, but rather equality and fairness in this country. Obama's message is that if you are successful making more than $250K per year, you will pay more in taxes than you already are. I don't want a president that penalizes people for achieving the American dream. In this great country, everyone starts out with the same chance to be successful, so no whining about those that are. "

Dew wrote on Oct 14, 2008 6:47 AM:

" Voice of Reason wrote on Oct 13, 2008 10:23 AM:

" My, my, my, Isn't it interesting to see how much resentment those who have been successful have for those who haven't. Ill bet many of them consider themselves as Christians too.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe the reason that they worked hard and do have money to 'feed the poor and help take care of the sick' through their tithing (not through Government mandates) is because they were and are Christians? The Lord helps those who help themselves, I was always told! I certainly think that applies in this age as well as when I was growing up! Maybe you remember from school days, who said, " He who does not work, does not eat"? "

VoR wrote on Oct 13, 2008 10:53 PM:

" To OLEB-ND, Oh yeah... this economic melt-down is all Clinton's fault. Ya know one day last week I saw a guest on Wolf Blitzer's program trying to hang it all on the Carter Administration. No kidding really. It's too bad that all of those Republican Presidents in between couldn't fix the problems. I guess the answer to to elect nothing but Republicans from now on. Yup, That'd sure fix everything alright. ;) "

OLEB-ND wrote on Oct 13, 2008 4:51 PM:

" We have been spending too much money for a long time. However this banking and loss of jobs crisis started with the policies of the Clinton administration. Nafta which was pushed for by Clinton has cost the U.S. thousands of jobs which have gone out of the country and the residual loss of many of their suppliers. The Community Reinvestment Act from the 90's was the start of the subprime loans and it grew and grew. The Clinton administration for some reason felt everyone was entitled to own a home. Banks, savings and loans and mortgage companies were told you make these loans or you will be out of business. So they made them and you see what it caused. Banking deregulation with less oversight was signed by Clinton. In 2003 the Republicans called for more oversight of FNMA. Barney Frank (committe head) stopped it saying all was fine. So you all can decide where the problems came from. The lesson here is to tell the government to stop trying to micromanage our lives. You see who basically has caused this whole fiasco. "

Amused wrote on Oct 13, 2008 1:48 PM:

" To:"To Voice of reason"-
I hear you loud and clear- I am small business owner. The sacrifices made between my spouse and I with 14-16 hour days, only to be rewarded by "You don't pay enough taxes" gets old. What conservatives realize is that in a free market economy, private enterprise can thrive, which in turn creates jobs. This also creates wealth (something government does not do). The beauty of it is that we are all eligible to take part at whatever level we choose. Americans of all vocations can prosper in this climate, if they want to! Penalizing people with goals and dreams is a one way ticket to socialism. That will be a devastating ride for America. "

To Voice of Reason wrote on Oct 13, 2008 12:57 PM:

" I'm the one who wrote about working long hours and being successful. You have no idea what I give back and I really resent the fact that you bring Christianity into this. If you really must know, I tithe to my church, I give to many organizations in the community, I volunteer my time with community youth programs, and I pay in the top percent tax bracket every year. I'm sure if we stood side by side and compared our giving, I would be way ahead of most people. So don't call me un-Christianlike if I don't want my taxes increased or I don't somehow want to give more of my hard earned money to deadbeats who took out mortgages they couldn't afford. When I give back, I want it to be on my own terms, not because the government says I have to. You have no clue and when the governments wants to take up to 40% of your paycheck, I'm sure you won't be thinking how patriotic you are when you hand that money over. I think you're the one who has the problem with wealthy people and not the other way around. "

Voice of Reason wrote on Oct 13, 2008 10:23 AM:

" My, my, my, Isn't it interesting to see how much resentment those who have been successful have for those who haven't. Ill bet many of them consider themselves as Christians too.

Last week Sarah Palin stood before a cheering crowd and made fun of people who think that paying taxes is patriotic. Just in case any of you fortunate types are reading this, I'd like to let you know that nobody likes to pay taxes. But those of us who can measure our worth in areas beyond our financial success understand that with great success comes the responsibility to give something back to the nation that provided them with the conditions that in many cases made their success possible. "

Tommy wrote on Oct 13, 2008 7:27 AM:

" Lets punish all those rich people that made it in our country. All of those that are living the "American Dream" Punish those successful people. How dare they get rich in our country without giving us some. Lets make a new law that states that nobody can be richer than their neighbor. Or maybe we should just change the name of the country to China or something.. Shame on those rich people. how dare they think that they can become successful in this country. "

To 2th dr wrote on Oct 13, 2008 6:50 AM:

" Thank you for comment...I agree with you 100%. I too have worked VERY hard to get to where I am at and have done very well. When others are out having fun, I am often working. When many are punching their time clock to go home for the night, I am looking at 3-4 more hours of work before I can leave. After the kids go to bed at night, I take out my briefcase. How do I get rewarded for all that hard work and dedication? Obama wants to raise my taxes and people like Amar think it's okay to take some of my money to help the country out. I think NOT!!!!!!!! "

VoR wrote on Oct 12, 2008 11:47 PM:

" To 2th dr, WOW, I was going to write a response to your post, but the more I considered it the more I realized how well your own words say it all. "

2th dr wrote on Oct 12, 2008 7:11 PM:

" I consider myself well to do, but I don't see the reasoning in paying higher taxes, just because I am rich. I made my choice....I am doing what others can't....or won't...so why should I have to pay more than the bum who chooses to live on food vouchers? "

VoR wrote on Oct 12, 2008 11:46 AM:

" To Fiscal Conservative,

10-09-08
"NEW YORK (AP) In a sign of the times, the National Debt Clock in New York City has run out of digits to record the growing figure. As a short-term fix, the digital dollar sign on the billboard-style clock near Times Square has been switched to a figure the "1" in $10 trillion. It's marking the federal government's current debt at about $10.2 trillion.
The Durst Organization says it plans to update the sign next year by adding two digits. That will make it capable of tracking debt up to a quadrillion dollars.
The late Manhattan real estate developer Seymour Durst put the sign up in 1989 to call attention to what was then a $2.7 trillion debt."

(BTW, in case you didn't know, The clock went dark from 2000 to mid-2002, because the debt had been receding and the sign couldn't count backward. But it has been climbing steadily since, and some experts think the financial bailout attempt will add more than another trillion dollars to the total.)

And if you add in all the debts that used to be counted - Social Security debt to retirees, Veterans commitments, etc - our debt has actually ballooned to 53 Trillion... How's that for a staggering number. "

The Point wrote on Oct 12, 2008 11:06 AM:

" Bill:
Who ever said life was fair? "

Fiscal Conservative wrote on Oct 12, 2008 10:30 AM:

" To VoR,

The new liberalism is what President George W. Bush has done with his fiscal policies the past 7 years. He is the biggest liberal president we have ever had. His liberalism has been demonstrated by increasing federal spending and increasing deficits that help big business and big oil. This spending borrowed money has had an effect of keeping stocks and the economy artificially high.

This is sort of like a businessman who continues to borrow and buy big vehicles, equipment, etc. This gives the impression that things are going well. It helps provide jobs and income for people. When in reality a day of reckoning is coming. The days of reckoning for this great nation are now upon us. How bad will the effects be is yet to be determined. The new President and Congress will have to make some very difficult decisions. We cant continue to spend as we have! This bailing out some of the wealthy who just want more can not be sustained.

Im glad the biggest liberal president of all time will be leaving office in a few months. I foresee a lot more belt tightening for all Americans. We also need to make tough decisions as to what Washington is going to support fiscally and what they will not.
We really blew the War on Terror. Now they are stronger than ever and we as a Nation have spent $ 5 trillion on the wrong issues. The biggest wrong issue was Iraq. Invading Iraq was good for big business and big oil companies. Now we have a huge mess! "

VoR wrote on Oct 12, 2008 12:02 AM:

" To Halatbis, You wrote on Oct 10, 2008 8:30 AM: "The congress told the banking system that 'you will make loans to people who do not qualify---or else' That was the Redlining congressional hearings.
The problem with the free market system is not the lack of regulation, it is the over use of legislation by congress to force un-natural behavior onto the financial industry. Say "hello" to your Liberal Democrat friends---the economic engineers who brought this on us all. "

A most interesting and serious charge. Please tell us all where we can read this, thanks "

VoR wrote on Oct 11, 2008 11:58 PM:

" Get Real, On Oct 10, 2008 you wrote 12:11 PM:
" Freddie Mae and Fannie Mac are government agencies. This is a government bailout, not a wall street bail out. It is not the rich that need oversight, it is government that needs oversight. "

You really need to check your facts!... These are in fact NOT government agencies. That's actually a big part of the problem. Freddie Mac is a stockholder-owned corporation chartered by Congress in 1970 as a government sponsored enterprise or GSE in order to expand the secondary mortgage market in the United States. Freddie Mac, along with Fannie Mae, buys home loans from mortgage lenders and either holds them in its own investment portfolio or securitizes them into mortgage backed securities (MBS) which can then be sold to investors.

The federal takeover of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac refers to the placing into conservatorship of government sponsored enterprises Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by the US Treasury in September 2008. It was one financial event among many in the ongoing Subprime mortgage crisis.

Now this gets Kinda complicated but it's important. The agreement the Treasury made with both GSEs specifies that in exchange for future support and capital investments of up to US$ 100 billion in each GSE, at the inception of the conservatorship, each GSE shall issue to the Treasury US$ 1 billion of senior preferred stock, with a 10% coupon, without cost to the Treasury. Also each GSE contracted to issue common stock warrants representing an ownership stake of 79.9%, at an exercise price of one-thousandth of a U.S. cent ($ 0.00001) per share, and with a warrant duration of twenty years.

That legal mumbo jumbo means that we the taxpayers now own about 80% of these guys for the next 20 years, then they become private again and we the taxpayers put that stock back into the marketplace.

If Freddie & Fannie were government agencies all along this would never have happened. "

Blue Eyed Indian wrote on Oct 11, 2008 9:31 PM:

" Does anyone in ND really think comrad conrad didn't know something was amiss?Maybe he was blinded by all those shiny "coins" he got from Countrywide! I am sure we are so smart we will send him back to D.C. FOR MORE. "

Vetter wrote on Oct 11, 2008 5:49 PM:

" Obama studied Saul Alinsky, Acorn hired him to train their community agitators. this group sued banks for not giving high risk loans in depressed areas. Obama was one of the attorneys in a class action against Citibank.

HUD released informaion last week. FIVE million illegal aliens were givien sub-prime mortgages over the last few years. WHAT? ...... They have NODOC loans where you didn't even have to provide a social security number, or job history. FANNIE FREDDIE, Carters equal housning act. in 77. Clinton accelorating it, and Democrats getting sweetheart deals from Countrywide, And huge campaign donations. Dems blocked calls for reform EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. So STOP blaming Bush, he called for reform 12 times in 2008 alone! "

IT HAPPENS wrote on Oct 11, 2008 4:55 PM:

" Vetter you have got to learn to let it go. You Reps are so desperate these days you will try anything wont you? Yet you all seem to forget this guy who actually approved the annenberg foundation grant to ayers!!! & he's longtime republican & he's currently working for mccain!!!

David T. Kearns

Chairman of the Alexandria-based New American Schools Development Corporation (NASDC)a 1991 school reform initiative of President George H. W. Bush; former Deputy Secretary of Education (19911993) under Secretary of Education Lamar Alexander in the George H. W. Bush administration; former president, CEO and chairman of Xerox

Why is mccain palling around w/ terrorist sympathizers????
Time to get off your high horses. For everything you can find on Obama people can find 10 things on McCain, thats what 26 years of flip-flopping gets you.

"I JUST HAVE TO RELY ON THE GOOD JUDGMENT OF THE VOTERS NOT TO BUY INTO THESE NEGATIVE ATTACK ADS. SOONER OR LATER, PEOPLE WILL FIGURE OUT THAT IF ALL YOU RUN ARE NEGATIVE ADS, YOU DON'T HAVE MUCH OF A VISION FOR THE FUTURE, OR YOU'RE NOT READY TO ARTICULATE IT."
--John McCain, Feb. 21st, 2000

That was then, this is now:

"Sen. John McCain and his Republican allies are readying a newly aggressive assault on Sen. Barack Obama's character, believing that to win in November they must shift the conversation back to questions about the Democrat's judgment, honesty and personal associations..."

Get use to saying it "MY FRIENDS" President Barack Obama!! "

Eli wrote on Oct 11, 2008 10:54 AM:

" Not everyone deserves to own a home. It's very expensive and there were many that bought homes knowing full well they couldn't afford them. All I hear is people blaming the banks, government, Wall Street, CEO's, etc., but where is the personal accountability? These people should have had some self discipline and said NO, when the bank offered to lend them this money. I wouldn't dream of taking a loan for several thousand dollars knowing that I couldn't afford it. And, if I was dumb enough to do that, then I certainly wouldn't expect my government or anyone else to bail me out! While in Chicago Obama pushed for loans for low income people who wouldn't otherwise afford homes. He was one of the those who took lobbyist money from Fanny & Freddie and looked the other way. Now, people are going to vote him into office as president? If you want to share your money with every Tom, Dick, & Harry down the street, be sure to vote him in because that's the kind of programs he pushes. You have to be responsible, hard working, and diligent as a home owner. There are too many deadbeats out there that got loans they didn't deserve and couldn't afford and now those of us who do pay our mortagages on time are having to foot the bill. I am so ANGRY about this mess! "

Decent debate wrote on Oct 11, 2008 9:32 AM:

" We actually have the facts coming out in this group of comments. I agree with EVB, I hope the shareholders not only vote these CEOs out but they should face criminal charges. This is not another Bush problems, it is a mess way beyond the current president and the democrats are the ones who pushed for the loans to people who couldn't afford them. Tell me, how did that help these people? Get a loan you can't afford then lose the house? Apparently these people believed the banks that told them they could afford something that they should have known they couldn't. Let's get mortgages back to the old standards - how much you can afford with a down payments. "

CW4RETIRED wrote on Oct 11, 2008 8:13 AM:

" TO EVB: Good point, EVB. I sit on the board of directors for a local organization. The board sets and approves salaries. They also set policy and are responsible for keeping the organization moving in the right direction. In many cases, board members are elected by the shareholders. Therefore, a class action lawsuit against the CEO and the board of directors might be appropriate. If they violated the law or showed gross negligence, they would be liable for criminal and civil actions. If we don't hold them accountable as an example, we are just waiting for the next bailout. "

EVB wrote on Oct 11, 2008 7:28 AM:

" I have a question. Where are the stockholders in these companies? Do they approve the business plan? Do they approve the outlandish salaries? Do they just let it go for their personal return on their investment? Where was the accountability? If the CEOs lied, shouldn'g there be court battles going on and not buy out packages? In most jobs, if one lies, makes mistakes, etc. they are simply FIRED! "

Nat wrote on Oct 11, 2008 6:49 AM:

" Arman, go back to bed. It's not the rich's responsiblity to get us out of this mess! They didn't create it, why should they pay for it? That's penalizing someone for being successful. Last I checked, this was America. Would you like it if someone told you you had to pay x amount of dollars to help the people who are struggling? I'm guessing you would flip out if that happenned. "

Vetter wrote on Oct 10, 2008 11:31 PM:

" Amused....Kelsey Grammer BLAMES Obama for this mess, and is a conservative... I agree with you, Obama is a Socialist Radical. "

kenny wrote on Oct 10, 2008 10:19 PM:

" This is not a rich mans problem in whole. Part of the problem are these idiotic people who actually thought that making 40000 a year would cover there 1500+ a month mortgage. This was warned of four years ago and barney frank and his pals did nothing. I don't care really any more who is to blame. But fixing a cut in our economy with a piece of duct tape will not work. It will just put us further in the hole. The whole system is terrible for the "working class" and it is about time the WORKING CLASS'S voice is heard. GIVE THE WORKING CLASS THE BAILOUT MONEY AND WE'LL TEACH YOU HOW TO FIX THE PROBLEM!!!!!!! "

Blue collar man wrote on Oct 10, 2008 9:44 PM:

" What this country needs is a recession that lasts about 2 years, then everyone would realize the true value of the dollar! "

CW4RETIRED wrote on Oct 10, 2008 7:32 PM:

" TO ARMAN: It's obvious you and Obama believe in the same redistribution of wealth. Do yourself a favor and read about billionaire Ross Perot's biography. He began working jobs at age seven. When he went to work for IBM, he met a full years sales goals in two weeks. He then started his own company because IBM would not listen to his advice on how their sales could be improved. He DID work long and hard and smart. He also was the only candidate that warned us about NAFTA and most Americans said he was nuts. Also, read the book, "On Wings of Eagles" to find out how he treated his employees. Then you go up to him and tell him he makes too much money and that you should get over half of what he owns. Tell him he didn't work hard enough to earn that money. You want to tax his hard earned success, Arman. Neither you nor I have worked that hard or that smart and we are where we are because of it. Anyone who looks for a handout from successful people like Ross Perot are part of the "It's all about me" culture we've created in America. They will dicatate to Americans how much salary is too much and take anything over that limit to distribute to everyone else. Sound familiar? It should, but it didn't work so well in East Germany, Russia, Cuba, North Korea and other places. Did it Arman? "

Halatbis wrote on Oct 10, 2008 4:53 PM:

" To Ann: well said. I agree until the last sentence about Obama. We will see how this plays out; however, we will never know which person would be the best for the predicament our nation is in. Just as the Iraq and Afghanistan debate, we won't know till we are long gone if the Iraq thing worked. After all, the jury is still out on the Korean situation--we are still there after 50 years--but we do know that South Korea is infinitely better-off than is the North. Did we do good? The people of NK may think we stopped too soon. Such is the dilemma of the road not taken. "

Along comes Ann wrote on Oct 10, 2008 4:45 PM:

" She writes:
" I get sort of a chuckle reading all these comments, how everyone knows THEIR view is the correct one", then goes on to try to convince us that HER view is the correct one. God help us if Obama is in the Oval Office. Talk about a chuckle... "

Ann wrote on Oct 10, 2008 2:00 PM:

" I get sort of a chuckle reading all these comments, how everyone knows THEIR view is the correct one. What really caused this whole mess is a combination of things, including The Federal Reserve, mortgage brokers, Wall street firms, the Bush administration, the Clinton administration, Congress, and some home buyers. Being a Democrat, as much as I would love to blame this whole thing on Bush, the root causes lie with all parties involved. I love this answer on factcheck: "The U.S. economy is enormously complicated. Screwing it up takes a great deal of cooperation. Claiming that a single piece of legislation was responsible for (or could have averted) the crisis is just political grandstanding." That being said, I have way more faith in Obama getting us back on the right track Mccain! "

Internet Bully wrote on Oct 10, 2008 1:09 PM:

" HAHAHAHAHAHA thanks Arman you made my day and possibly my weekend. The 'rich' did not get this nation into this 'mess'. It was middle class like 90% over people reading this paper is. You ask how? Because EVERYONE wants to be the guy next door. It was the middle class that bought more house then they could afford, put the brand new boat and truck on a loan from the bank, that fancy Gucci dress and bag on the credit card all in an attempt to make them selves feel superior to the other person next to them. Now the bills have come due and we can't pay them. Unfortunately, there is no fix to this mess except for making the people that charged every thing pay it back. The gov't slapping them on the wrist and paying off everything for for them IS NOT going to help as that person will go and do the same thing all over again and we will be in the same mess in another 20-30 yrs. "

Deb wrote on Oct 10, 2008 12:44 PM:

" Uh... that's not Socialism... that's Communism. If you are one of the majority of people who haven't figured out how to make a billion or more dollars a year - that's your fault, not the billionaire's fault. "

Kauk43 wrote on Oct 10, 2008 12:28 PM:

" This is a good debate, but let's not forget the guy who represents us in Congress. I'm talking about Earl Pomeroy. Pomeroy benefited from AIG, Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac, as well as a whole lot of out state insurance companies. He profited and from what I hear, he is an AIG investor...hmmm...He does all of that and then he votes for a bailout. Pomeroy's opponent Duane Sand said the bailout was a sham from day one. Pomeroy shouldn't be allowed to get away with this kind of thing. People call the newspapers and demand they publish justice!
Vote Duane Sand this year. Let's give Earl his packing slip. Sand 08'. "

Get Real wrote on Oct 10, 2008 12:11 PM:

" Freddie Mae and Fannie Mac are government agencies. This is a government bailout, not a wall street bail out. It is not the rich that need oversight, it is government that needs oversight. "

Amused wrote on Oct 10, 2008 9:05 AM:

" Kelsey Grammer said yesterday that he is 100% for Obama but he and a lot of his actor friends have cashed in stock and moved their millions off shore because they all know their taxes will increase dramatically under Obama's plan.....If Hollywood is protecting their money, I predict you will see a ton of big business move out of the US again if Obama gets in! Yah..... that'll be change for the better- I and guarentee if Obama gets in, Socalism is going to suffocate America- so Mr Goplen will get his wish. "

warmachine wrote on Oct 10, 2008 9:05 AM:

" So you want to redistribute someones EARNED money to someone who hasn't EARNED that money? And you want to push and bully the rich a little....maybe a lot? Arman do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, because you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. "

Halatbis wrote on Oct 10, 2008 8:30 AM:

" To Ezra: you are so right that most people do not thave a clue about how we got into this mess, and if Waxman, Frank, Hoyer, Dodd, Conrad and Co. have their way the blame will be put on the "greed" of the bankers and Wall street. Once again the congress will insulate themselves from any culpability in this fiasco and destruction. It is not the failure of the free market system---it is the fact that a free market system has not existed for decades---thanks to the meddling of congress. Go back to the CRA--the Community Reinvestment Act passed by congress over 20 years ago. The congress told the banking system that 'you will make loans to people who do not qualify---or else' That was the Redlining congressional hearings.
The problem with the free market system is not the lack of regulation, it is the over use of legislation by congress to force un-natural behavior onto the financial industry. Say "hello" to your Liberal Democrat friends---the economic engineers who brought this on us all. "

Law wrote on Oct 10, 2008 8:30 AM:

" This problem started with the govt encouraging credit companies to give out loans to people who could not afford to pay them back. As long as the value of the house went up it was ok, but once the value dropped all of those loans became bad paper. Banks therefore became unstable and the panic set in, the President and Congress hurried a bailout plan to help their lobbyist pals and it didn't work. Now the taxpayers are going to be left holding the bag for all this stupidity. Restricting people's pay is ridiculous. So do you think the Bill Gate's of the world would stay in America if you restricted their personal wealth. We would have a max exodus of brain and ingenuity and be left with noone but deadbeats and handout seekers. "

Grumpy Old Republican wrote on Oct 10, 2008 8:11 AM:

" I'm just as ticked off about the big time corporate welfare that is draining our economy as the next guy. But the idea of a maximum income or net worth? What are you thinking??? This is not a communist nation. "

Chatter wrote on Oct 10, 2008 8:11 AM:

" As a family that pays our mortage, what do we get our of all this bail out. We made reasonable and wise choices along with doing our homework before purchasing a home. Why is it then we have to foot the bill for the slackers? "

BabyT wrote on Oct 10, 2008 7:55 AM:

" To wrong state... Check your facts. That is a long lived urban legend about ND. IIRC we are ranked around 17th or so. Check the IRS data. "

Jerry wrote on Oct 10, 2008 7:51 AM:

" Why is this newspaper not reporting on those that were really responsible for the market crash? How much money did Senators Dodd, Obama, Conrad, and Frank, among others, take from the mortgage industry? What role did these senators have in forcing the mortgage industry to provide loans to people that can't afford them? If you want to blame the rich, blame the rich that work in Washington, including one of North Dakota's own.

Perhaps, if we were under a Fairtax system, their wouldn't be any tax breaks and loopholes for the morons in Washington to negotiate with, like the $150 billion of pork that was added to the "Emergency Bailout".

Blame "The Rich", I think not. "

Criss wrote on Oct 10, 2008 7:26 AM:

" The letter states "Most of us know that in a fair world no one would be able to work long enough, hard enough or smart enough to make a billion dollars."

Sounds like another observation from the living room sofa.

"Opportunities are usually disguised as hard work, so most people don't recognize them." "

Ezra wrote on Oct 10, 2008 5:16 AM:

" You hit the nail on the head, no one wants to admit or face the fact that welfare for the rich is what caused this problem. CEO pay of three hundred times what workers make and the other Bush endorsed trickle down nonsense is what brought this on. The rich got a free ride on Iraq. For the first time in history taxes were lowered on the rich during a war. I don't think your idea is crazy, it is an idea most people cannot embrace because they have no clue how we got in the current finical mess. "

wrong State wrote on Oct 10, 2008 4:54 AM:

" The writer of this letter lives in the wrong State. IF you look at the way North Dakota is. There are more millionaires per capitia then just about any other State. North Dakota is a State were the rich get more then the poor guy that works for aliving. "

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