Bismarck Tribune - North Dakota News - Supporting life the No. 1 issue

Supporting life the No. 1 issue

Sep 29, 2008 - 04:05:24 CDT

By BILL MITZEL
Bismarck

Bill Patrie's Sept. 9 letter proclaims that we here in good old North Dakota should vote for Obama because he is committed to understanding and working issues that affect our rural communities, among which are health care, the economy, the war in Iraq, agriculture, schools, low wages, and on and on. I read the letter a couple of times, searching for one of those "major issues" Patrie seemed to miss, but to my chagrin it wasn't there.

How can Patrie, I wonder, place all those "major issues" ahead of abortion, of which Obama is a supporter? Obama's record says he's not only pro-choice, he's pro-abortion. And we should vote for this? Omigosh.

This mindset that the killing of our babies is not a "major issue" among people like Mr. Patrie has weakened America. Let us first support life. How can anything else be as important as that?

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Comments

Daycare Mom wrote on Oct 14, 2008 9:00 AM:

" I'm praying for these people who posted on this board. It's scary to see this kind of non-belief in Bismarck ND. Hopefully they will find Christ before it's to late. "

Rugby Reader wrote on Oct 6, 2008 10:19 PM:

" And McCain/Palin ain't it! "

Quick question wrote on Oct 6, 2008 9:55 PM:

" To teacher: I just have to ask, if religious people are weak minded and need a reward (heaven) to have a reason to do the right thing, why do athiests and probably even yourself do the right thing? If it isn't for a reward, it would probably be to avoid a consequence, like jail? I don't know, that's why I am asking. I guess we all do what we think is right for a reason, my reasons are religious beliefs, societal gudelines, laws, ethics, and don't want to pay a fine or sit in jail. I don't steal from others because I know what that would feel like if someone stole from me. I think they call that something like the golden rule, treat others as you would treat yourself. I wouldn't exactly call that heaven, but it makes life on earth a lot less complicated. I can behave just as well having religion as those who don't have religion. I still fail to see the big connection between having religion and knowing right from wrong. Who are you to judge if I am right or wrong because our opinions don't match? Having respect for others opinions isn't right from the bible, it's from attitude and personality, and I think people without religion have those qualities, too. So tell me again how weak minded and selfish I am and how I need to be bribed by the promise of heaven to do the right thing. "

Curious wrote on Oct 6, 2008 8:18 PM:

" To 'teacher' who wrote: "However, I believe anybody has the right to believe whatever they may, no matter how wrong."

So, who gets to decide what is "right" and what is "wrong"? "

Bis Prof wrote on Oct 6, 2008 4:35 PM:

" Dear VoR:

Of course you can own Canadians! I have a few myself. Anyway, back to why I'm really writing: I'll bid $150 for your daughter! "

Quick Question wrote on Oct 6, 2008 3:48 PM:

" Of course athiests have morals. I wasn't meaning they didn't, I was saying that so many people blame the morals some of us have on religious beliefs, when in fact, religion has little to do with the "code of behavior" and knowing right from wrong. People insult religion and say we are against abortion because of religious beliefs, and laugh at the bible, when in fact those are not the ONLY reason we can be against abortion. People blame the beliefs of others on "religion" when I was simply pointing out that even those without religion can be rightous and know right from wrong. My disagreeing with killing innocent babies isn't because I go to church, it's simply because it's wrong. Mostly what I learn from church and the bible is how to treat others and find joy in situations. My concepts of right or wrong are called conscience. "

Honest Omar wrote on Oct 6, 2008 2:25 PM:

" Hey Facts: I'm still waiting for your answers to VoR's excellent questions. They are relevant, they are pertinent, and they are central to helping us understand why there is huge philosophical gap between those of you who still believe that the Stone Age scribblings of an ancient, sand-dwelling, ignorant and superstitious society have ANY relevance to anything, and those of us who do not. Please don't disappoint. "

teacher wrote on Oct 5, 2008 10:39 PM:

" To quick question,
Your view is very narrow minded and unfortunatly far to common. Implying that atheists have no moral guideline. The same argument was made for "converting" the heathen natives when the Spanish, French, Portuguese, and British came to the Americas. Clearly ANY society establishes codes of conduct. Religion may or may not play a part. Personally I think most religions are for weak minded selfish individuals who need a "reward (heaven)" in order to have a reason to do the right thing. However, I believe anybody has the right to believe whatever they may, no matter how wrong. "

Quick question wrote on Oct 5, 2008 9:50 PM:

" What does structured or established religion have to do with simple morals and ethics and right from wrong? Don't we have a few proclaimed athiests on here who can tell us, because they don't believe in religion are they totally unmoral or unethical in how they behave and get along in society? Where do they get their sense of decent behavior because it isn't from religion, we know that. So what guidelines do they live by? Can the athiests believe in murder because if they don't follow the ten commandments they can do as they please? I'm just wondering, for all those who poo-poo the bible and all that, who do they answer to? Is there a law against cheating on your spouse? Or telling lies or gossiping? How do the non-religious know how to behave in society? What set of guidelines do they follow? "

Voice of Reason wrote on Oct 5, 2008 9:16 PM:

" To Facts, I'm anxiously awaiting your reply to my last post. You really said it all on Oct. 3, 2008 at 11:35 AM: with your brilliant post. I was particularly inspired when you said, "Unfortunately, people are too lazy or adverse to the clear teachings in the Scriptures. If people would only faithfully and obediently follow the Bible as the only source of truth and authority, our nation would once again be a Godly nation and that is a fact!!!"

And also by your rebuke to MamaMia Oct 3, 2008 11:35 AM: when you said, "In other words what you are telling us is that you are too lazy to verify my facts or that you know I'm telling the truth and you don't have the character, honesty, or intergrity to admit it. How sad!!!"

Not to mention how you put that atheist Deb in her place on Oct 4, 2008 3:54 PM: by saying "Deb, easy answer, the public schools should teach the Muslims, the Jews, the Buddists, etc... about the Bible, prayer, and the 10 Commandments just like our Nation did for the first 150 to 170 years, period!"

Rev. Jerry Falwell said it best when discussing 9-11 with Pat Robertson on 9-14-01 said, "Throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way--all of them who have tried to secularize America--I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen."

What a wise and prophetic soul, like you. "

Honest Omar wrote on Oct 5, 2008 8:42 PM:

" Hello Facts - be sure to check your 'facts' before you attempt to advance any. Here is a part of a treaty with Tripoli, drafted in 1796 under George Washington and signed by John Adams in 1797: As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
VoR - Great questions!!!!! I can't wait to see the NON-answers!! "

To rugby reader wrote on Oct 5, 2008 2:01 AM:

" The wars and lives lost in them are a result of decades and generations of greed and power hungry nations, things brought on by adults and leaders that we now must live with. Hardly compares to the tearing apart of an innocent little body who has no voice or choice. I don't care who people are, or what kind of athiest they claim to be, who can deny that a pregnancy is a miracle, not a right, but a real priviledge. The power hungry webs we weave as nations are our own set of problems, innocent babies have nothing to do with that. "

Abortion law wrote on Oct 5, 2008 1:56 AM:

" So Obama supports the law. Maybe the law is wrong. Laws have been wrong in the past, and this one may just be wrong, too. Yes, in the old days it was different, and babies were allowed to be born and adopted. There was shame, and was that so bad? As opposed to today's society that doesn't look twice and doesn't uphold any morals, ethics, or expectations for it's people? Look at the numbers that the abortion clinic logs, don't tell me it's mostly incest or rape, it's plain laziness and selfishness. I do believe this issue is important in elections, because if the candidate has such little regard for life, why would he care about anyone at all? Respect for life tells a lot about a person. Sure, a woman has a choice with her body until her body is carrying yet another body. The choice she should have made would have been before the life was created, when it WAS her body, not their body. No excuses in this day and age for an unwanted pregnancy. And, ask anyone who is adopted, are they glad their mother didn't make the decision for them to kill them years ago? The reason people are threatened when the 10 commandments and such are taught in schools is that no one wants to be held to those standards anymore, it's easier to live life without those basic rules, and easier to raise kids without holding them accountable for ten such basic morals. It's much harder to live life by the commandments, and people simply don't want to answer to anyone or anything. So - out of sight out of mind - take the rules away and we don't have to bother raising our kids to any accountability nor do we have to live that way. "

VoR wrote on Oct 5, 2008 1:37 AM:

" To Facts,
As you so clearly wrote on Oct 1, 2008 8:07 PM: " I firmly believe, however, that the most important issue in government is to allow and permit public schools to teach the Bible, prayer, and the 10 Commandments."
Since you insist, here a some facts.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them?
(Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God instituted government in the Book of Genesis and it still exists today.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan, VoR "

Rugby Reader wrote on Oct 4, 2008 6:58 PM:

" If supporting life is the number one issue, why are we conducting and condoning wars in Afghanistan and Iraq?

http://ivaw.org

Peace... "

Meagan wrote on Oct 4, 2008 6:36 PM:

" To Jim S: Palin did charge women $1,200 for a rape kit in Wasilla. This was featured on CNN, and the AK legislature actually had to pass a law requiring localities to pay for rape kits, just because of this law Palin put in. Here is the link from CNN http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/21/palin.rape.exams/ "

Voice of Reason wrote on Oct 4, 2008 4:27 PM:

" To Car Geek, Frankly I'm a bit disappointed that congress was all distracted by this whole Wall Street rescue operation. No one had time to introduce a last minute flag burning bill like before most national elections. At least they were able to find time to add another $140 billion in pork to the bill before they passed it, then cut and ran out of town, oops, I mean adjourned.

Did you notice that McCain voted "for" the bill, then said Bush should "veto" it, on the same day. Oh...and did you catch that they were able to slip-in that $25 billion auto industry bail-out this week too. It hardly got any coverage at all. I guess it was pushed off the front page by the O.J. Trial. He's finally going to prison. Yippee! What a great country!

I couldn't help but notice that when they were discussing universal healthcare these very same congressmen were outraged that it would cost $110 billion but I suppose all that last minute pork was even more important than a national healthcare plan. At least now we can't say that this was a do nothing congress. They defiantly did something...to the whole country.

It's kind of strange in away, almost like they think we won't remember this flagrant, disgusting insult to us all 4 weeks from now. I won't. "

reality wrote on Oct 4, 2008 3:57 PM:

" Have anyone noticed how people justify taking unborn life by the most illogical and inconsistent reasons. Such as: Individual choice trumps life and negates personal accountability. Unwanted kids grow up in slums and poor neighborhoods and get killed ..so The war in Iraq is killing people too.... Only women have children so only women can decide... men shut up... Well....
LIsten to your heart and then tell me these things..better yet listen to the beating heart of the unborn and repeat these illogical and unethical reasons
After all, economics, and sexual freedom is more important right!!!!! "

Facts wrote on Oct 4, 2008 3:54 PM:

" To Deb: You said: "no, the founding fathers had it right. it just took time to hammer out the on-the-ground details of how to most fairly and justly administer the tenets of the Constitution and Bill of Rights." Deb, you can't say on hand that the Founding Fathers had it right and then say on the other it just took time to hammer out the on-the-ground details of how to most fairly and justly administer the tenets of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Either the Founding Fathers are right or the Supreme Court in 1962 and 1963 was right, but not both!!

You also said: "Let's for a second think about your premise that the Bible should be taught in public schools - what would you do with the Muslim & Jewish and Buddist students when you're teaching the Christians about the Bible and God & Jesus and all the rest of that junk?" Deb, easy answer, the public schools should teach the Muslims, the Jews, the Buddists, etc... about the Bible, prayer, and the 10 Commandments just like our Nation did for the first 150 to 170 years, period! "

Facts wrote on Oct 4, 2008 3:44 PM:

" To Buzz: You said: "The founding fathers new this to be true, and that is why we have seperation of church and state." What's wrong with you people! The Founding Fathers never ever used the words "seperation of church and state" our the Nation's founding documents! Please go back and re-read your Nation's history! Good grief!!! "

BIP wrote on Oct 4, 2008 3:37 PM:

" I get a little surprised by the moral superiority of the Republican party that people get tricked into believing year-after-year. It's so obvious it's just a platform to get elected and re-elected. We have John McCain who left his first wife after she faithfully waited for him to return from war after he saw she wasn't the beauty star he married (they say gay marriage violates the sanctity of marriage -- what about divorce?) -- and beloved Republican Reagan left his first wife, too; gay-hating Republican Senator Larry Craig who was later caught patrolling for gay sex in a Minnesota restroom; the overall Republican lack of concern for the poor despite the Bible's emphasis on helping them; the pro-life stance on unborn babies yet being pro-death penalty despite the hundreds of incarcerated individuals on death row who have been vindicated with DNA; etc. "

Car Geek wrote on Oct 4, 2008 12:08 PM:

" Bush, the Republican-dominated Congress and the Conservative Supreme Court had ample opportunity to pass a pro-life bill. Instead, like all previous years, Republicans use pro-life and anti-gay marriage stance only as a platform to get elected so they can accomplish their true agenda: passing expensive bills that cater to the lobbying groups that donate millions to their party, reduce taxes for the super wealthy and put the burden of private company losses on the backs of taxpayers. Hopefully Americans this year will not be so foolish to be duped by the Republican bate-and-switch that they fall for year-after-year. "

Deb wrote on Oct 4, 2008 11:58 AM:

" Facts: no, the founding fathers had it right. it just took time to hammer out the on-the-ground details of how to most fairly and justly administer the tenets of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Let's for a second think about your premise that the Bible should be taught in public schools - what would you do with the Muslim & Jewish and Buddist students when you're teaching the Christians about the Bible and God & Jesus and all the rest of that junk? "

Buzz wrote on Oct 4, 2008 10:06 AM:

" To Gee Jay: Shame on you... Being lazy is not what creates poverty. I suggest that before you start throwing stereo types around, you educate yourself on the topic of poverty and what it means to be poor. "

Buzz wrote on Oct 4, 2008 9:46 AM:

" To Facts: The founding fathers believed in the idea of freedom of religion, not just in your idea of religion. Also, if your whole premiss is going to be that we should teach religion in schools; then following true to our founding fathers, which idea of religion should we follow? (Catholic, Protestant or one of the many other religious beliefs?) I respect your belief, but just because you believe it does not mean I should have to or that my children should have to. Ask yourself this question? If it's ok for your beliefs to be forced on me, will it be ok for my beliefs to be forced on you. If the answer is no; then leave religion out of it, or you may just have to face that possibility some day. The founding fathers new this to be true, and that is why we have seperation of church and state. "

Teacher wrote on Oct 4, 2008 8:37 AM:

" To FACTS,
so the "way it was" with the founding fathers was better you say? So.. when prayer was in school.. at various times.. women, blacks, and Indians could not vote.... African Americans could not go to the same school as whites..... or live in certain areas... or counted as only 3/5 of a person until 1865... or could be owned .. while Japanese were "interned" during WWII just for being Japanese.... ALL of these FACTS..a legacy of sexism, racism and bigotry.... are also part of the "godly heritage" you speak of... and I presume you support a return to these to? "separate is inherently unequal" and Roe V wade decisions came at roughly the same time... "

BJB wrote on Oct 4, 2008 8:25 AM:

" Bill...so, the "Christain right" is responsible for the war? What about all the Dems that voted for the war? Please explain yourself. Also, these brave men and women were not drafted into war....they volunteered. And your comment about "draft young republicans"....a low blow, Bill. I'm disapointed and offended. "

Frustrated wrote on Oct 4, 2008 7:13 AM:

" To Mama Mia and VOR - What logic! What if the mothers of Mother Theresa, Martin Luther King Jr, Thomas Edison, Louis Pasteur and I could go on and on....
would have had an abortion. Again, STOP and think what you are saying!!! "

Amanda wrote on Oct 4, 2008 2:49 AM:

" "....used primarily to avoid the inconvenience that arises from choosing to have unprotected sex."

I've seen a couple people say this (or something close to it). How do you know that every abortion is the result of UNprotected sex?! Plenty of people use protection and you know what? It FAILS. It's not 100%. Condoms break, pills get forgotten, and even surgical procedures (tube tying & vasectomies) can FAIL. Don't assume that because a person is having an abortion that they are doing it because they didn't protect themselves to begin with. "

Voice of Reason wrote on Oct 4, 2008 1:48 AM:

" To Matt,

First, You are correct that a "right to abort" is not specified within the wording of the document.

Second, US government 101: The constitution "IS" what the Supreme Court says it "IS", nothing more, nothing less. That's the reason the "Probable Cause" threshold to obtain a search warrant spelled out in the Fourth amendment can now be interrupted as "Reasonable Suspicion".

That's why this discussion always gets back to the Roe v. Wade ruling which codified a woman's right to privacy under the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.
If this ruling were ever to be overturned this issue would again return to the state's rights category.

Considering where public opinion is today the implications would be predictably horrible. Abortion would be legal in a patchwork of states across the nation. So if a woman of moderate means or better wished to end a pregnancy she would just have to get in the car or hop a plane to get to a legal state, whereas poor women would be left the choice of having the child or seeking a back-ally abortion, and don't kid yourself back-ally abortion clinics would return to our country overnight. So, in essence, abortion would then be illegal only to the poor.

I'll not presume to venture an opinion on whether I think abortion is right or wrong.

Matt, Like you, due to my gender I will never personally be confronted by this dilemma with it's weighty religious and moral implications. So this is also an area where I feel uniquely unqualified to moralize or preach. It 's just wrong, in my view, to judge others for a decision I will never have to face. If I'm not mistaken Jesus weighed in on that too. "

Matt wrote on Oct 3, 2008 11:41 PM:

" As a matter of conscience, knowing that something is wrong doesn't require a poll or survey to tell you. School shootings, mass murder, driving drunk, rape, inscest, etc., everybody would acknowledge are wrong. This conclusion did not have to come from data collected in a study, poll, or survey either. No, It is part of ones consciousness; self-knowledge. It is understood then that the taking of a human life is wrong. Like abortion, all these other acts mentioned here were at some point a choice too, as far as that goes, even though they are known to be wrong. The exception is that abortion has been granted a privacy right which is false since a transaction resulting in an operation by a physician is not private. "

Rugby Reader wrote on Oct 3, 2008 10:05 PM:

" Support life!

Vote for the candidate who is pro-life and anti-war, and who supports funding for stem cell research.

God bless and peace... "

Facts wrote on Oct 3, 2008 6:40 PM:

" To Deb: So please tell me why then that the Bible, prayer, and the Ten Commandments were all taught in the public schools during the first 150 to 170 years of our Nation's history and is no longer taught in the public schools today? Did the Nation's Founding Fathers have it all wrong? Did all of the Supreme Courts up to 1962 and 1963 interpret the wrong governing documents of our Nation? I'm really curious to find out how much you really know about your own Nation's history! "

GeeJay wrote on Oct 3, 2008 6:14 PM:

" To Hopeless GOP: "Do you understand what that means?" yes perhaps people will have to take personal responsibility for their actions, get off their lazy butts and be part of the solution and not the problem. ohhh those poor, poor people "

DanfromIL wrote on Oct 3, 2008 6:09 PM:

" I am against abortion, but it is not an issue for government. It is an individual choice that should be based on your beliefs. Keep religion out of government, vote Democratic! "

Facts wrote on Oct 3, 2008 6:07 PM:

" To Honest Omar: Prove it with evidence please!!! "

MamaMia wrote on Oct 3, 2008 1:56 PM:

" FACTS: Please follow your own advice -- especially your last sentence. you write "

Hopeless GOP wrote on Oct 3, 2008 1:40 PM:

" How ridiculous.....The GOP wants to end Abortion and it also wants to stop welfare. Do you understand what that means? A large portion of people who have abortions cannot afford children. So the GOP plan is going to add how many millions of children to an already exhausted welfare system that the GOP doesn't want to pay for. Great plan. That should help out the economy! Brilliant thinking as usual. A second grader could figure out that spells disaster. "

Buzz wrote on Oct 3, 2008 1:36 PM:

" I'm pro-choice because I have not seen the right do anything that would put their money where there so called values are. They constantly vote in people who dangle the abortion isssue in front of christians to get elected, and then vote against ever bill that would help these girls or women who are having these children. You see this time in and time out, "save the fetus and abandon the child and mother." Every christian I have talked with about this issue are very proud of themselves that they are against abortion, but when you ask them why they vote for people that deprive these children of important programs to help them grow and have a chance by cutting their funding; they seem to have no answer other than abortion is bad. I might be willing to listen to a christian more closely on this issue when I see them putting these children and mothers ahead of making sure they have the biggest church on the corner. I bet Jesus would appreciate action more than just words by his devought, on this issue. If your going to be against abortion; then make sure you encourage your legislator's who you vote in to make sure to fund these programs for these children and mothers, and also open your wallet (not just for the collection plate) and open your home, so you truley can be a concrete solution, and not just more feel good retheric, so you can sleep at night without having to invest anything to the effort you so passionately believe in. "

Deb wrote on Oct 3, 2008 1:33 PM:

" mom-of-teens: you're spot on -

"If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament" - Floryence Kennedy ". "

Deb wrote on Oct 3, 2008 12:14 PM:

" Facts: I'm an athiest. I do not believe in your Bible. I'm also a tax paying citizen. my kids go to public school. I do not want your dogma taught to my children. If you want to teach the Bible's "lessons" in school, send them to one of many, many Christian schools. Keep your teachings out of my public school.

Regarding the founding fathers: ask Thomas Jefferson what he thinks about your "based on Christianity" hypothesis. Our government was formed separate from any religion for precisely the reasons I outline above. If we teach Christianity in schools, then we have to teach Buddism, Islam, Taoism, Shintoism... and the list goes on and on.

I find myself less and less surprised everytime a Christian comes onto these boards thumping their bibles and spewing the same old rhetoric. Y'all gotta get over your bad selves. "

BILL G-A-R-R wrote on Oct 3, 2008 12:11 PM:

" I know it's been stated time and time again here, but the Christian right stops caring about babies once they are out of the womb. Senseless war is just fine with them. They have the most blood on their hands in history. If you know Bill Mitzel, ask him what his thoughts on gay people are. Frightening!
Draft young republicans! "

Honest Omar wrote on Oct 3, 2008 12:02 PM:

" FACTS: Your post was nothing BUT "misguided and misinformed personal opinions"!! "

mom-of-teens wrote on Oct 3, 2008 11:49 AM:

" To Matt, what poll have you taken lately that leads you to believe that everyone thinks abortion is wrong? Rape and incest are wrong. War and mass murder are wrong. School shootings are wrong, driving drunk is wrong. I could go on and on about the things that are "wrong"; and abortion doesn't come close to those I've mentioned. Abortion is a choice, it is a private thing, a medical procedure, and none of the governments' or anyone elses' business if a woman chooses to have one!! If you think that only teens have abortions you are sadly mistaken. ADULT women capable of making their own choices have them also! The only reason it is an "issue" as you said, is because right wing religious nuts MAKE it an issue!! If men were capable of getting pregnant then this wouldn't BE an issue. Abortion would be legal, no if, ands, or buts, no one would care! Funny how those who so strongly oppose abortion are the same people who support children living in poverty, war, abuse, neglect, corporate greed, and don't want to change THOSE things! HMMMMM...... "

mom-of-teens wrote on Oct 3, 2008 11:39 AM:

" There are plenty of Americans who are pro-choice!! If pro-choice means pro-abortion; than pro-life also means anti-choice! What right does this man have to judge Obama for being pro-CHOICE when he and his Republican friends so clearly support the WAR!!! HELLO??? Baby killing??? WAR qualifies also, don't you think?? This is why Obama didn't bother to waste his time in ND! The hypocracy runs rampant here! I wonder if the writer knows or has ever met a rape or incest victim. I tend to doubt it! "

Facts wrote on Oct 3, 2008 11:35 AM:

" To MamaMia: In other words what you are telling us is that you are too lazy to verify my facts or that you know I'm telling the truth and you don't have the character, honesty, or intergrity to admit it. How sad!!! Remember, comments and responses must be based on truth and facts instead of misguided and misinformed personal opinions!!! "

Honest Omar wrote on Oct 3, 2008 10:10 AM:

" FACTS: I particularly like that your bible advocates slavery, genocide, the stoning to death of errant children and unfaithful wives. It is regrettable that these excellent practices have fallen into such disuse. "

In the Know wrote on Oct 3, 2008 10:04 AM:

" Yeah.....Mr. Mitzel will vote Republican because of the most important issue, abortion. He will ignore the economy, the wars, the erosion of rights and the fact that the Republicans lie to us at every turn. If Mr. Mitzel is a farmer, he will vote McCain even though McCain has worked hard to gut the farm bill every time. Not only will Mr. Mitzel vote for McCain, he would vote for Bush again. This is the mentality we are dealing with here. "

Me wrote on Oct 3, 2008 8:51 AM:

" I don't understand how anyone can be pro-life and pro-war.
You do realize the people die in wars, right?

You republicans confuse me. "

MamaMia wrote on Oct 3, 2008 8:48 AM:

" Good one, VoR! Add to that the mothers of Ted Bundy, Gary Ridgeway, Dennis Rader and Jeffery Dahmer. I could totally be a force for good! "

MamaMia wrote on Oct 3, 2008 8:44 AM:

" FACTS: I am far too benevolent person to mentally spar with you. It's like pulling a gun on an unarmed person. Have a great weekend! "

Jim S wrote on Oct 3, 2008 8:37 AM:

" To Choice is a womans right. I hope you will retract your statement about Palin and her wanting to charge rape victums for an abortion kit. It is a false statement, a freakin lie. You are spreading cancer. You continue to watch NBC, vote Democrat, live in the dark and you will continue to be part of our countries problems and not the solution. "

Voice of Reason wrote on Oct 3, 2008 3:40 AM:

" Something to ponder.

What if way back in the summer of 1888 Karla Hitler had aborted her fourth child? "

Matt wrote on Oct 2, 2008 11:25 PM:

" The truth is everybody knows abortion is wrong. It is a matter of conscience. If that were not the case, it wouldn't be an issue. The right of privacy was employed to strike down abortion laws in most states, because the right to abort is not found in the Constitution. "

Pro-Life Democrat wrote on Oct 2, 2008 9:24 PM:

" What surprises me with supposedly "pro-life" people is that as soon as the child is out of the womb, these kids are pretty much out on their own.

There are 9 million children in this country that don't have health insurance. How many kids die each year simply because their parents can't afford to take them to the doctor's office? Whatever it is, we all know that it's far too many.

And how about the millions of poor elderly who have to make the decision between paying for medicine and buying food? It doesn't make sense to me that McCain wants to put our troubled Social Security into an even more troubled market; he will literally starve our pensioners to death.

And of course, the death penalty--I'm sorry, but the Bible says "thou shall not kill", not "thou shall not kill unless proven guilty by a jury of your peers". Leave the punishment to God, for it is infinitely worse than anything we can do here on Earth.

That's why I'm voting Obama--because life doesn't end at childbirth. "

Facts wrote on Oct 2, 2008 9:10 PM:

" To MamaMia: Give me your very best effort to prove my factual statement wrong! You will only end up chasing the wind since our nation's historical record proves itself accurate! Now get busy and good luck!!! "

Bis Prof wrote on Oct 2, 2008 7:26 PM:

" To NDSU student:

Because you attend the state's main Ag college I imagine the campus is full of biology and zoology professors. Perhaps you should take up this issue with them and see what they say. I readily admit that the biological sciences are not my forte. "

VoR wrote on Oct 2, 2008 4:53 PM:

" Just a logical question. Since you believe that human life begins at conception and since murder has no statute of limitations when why arent you seeking a law requiring that every woman who ever had an abortion be charge with murder and anyone who assisted her be charged as accessories to murder?

After all if a woman has the right to kill an unborn child who has full rights at conception. Then she should have the right to kill the kid at any point before its turns 18 right?

Also, how come so many right to lifers, support capital punishment? Just wondering. "

Deb wrote on Oct 2, 2008 4:25 PM:

" YIKES "pro choice republican" --- WOWZA.

those darn minorities right - always with their hand out!!!

YIKES!!! "

Deb wrote on Oct 2, 2008 4:24 PM:

" citizen: no.

"NDSU student" said: "the moment that the egg and sperm join, that is a genetically distinct individual"

there's just all sorts of wrong in that statement. I'd start with revising the use of "moment" and "individual," but who am I to correct someone who is blatantly swapping fiction for fact in order to prove their point? "

Grumpy Old Republican wrote on Oct 2, 2008 4:13 PM:

" I'm a good fence-sitting type on this topic. I feel it should be removed from the political arena completely. It's not my job or yours to judge someone who opts for abortion. That's God's job.

I personally view abortion as being a disgusting, selfish, murderous form of after-the-fact birth control used primarily to avoid the inconvenience that arises from choosing to have unprotected sex.

That being said, I also find it reprehensible that anyone (especially us men) can possibly say that a bundle of cells the size of a pinhead can have more rights than the woman to whose internal organs it is attached.

The biggest problem I have with the pro-life (or anti-choice?) wing of "my" party is that they really really care about and want to protect and nurture babies...right up to the point where they're born. "

citizen wrote on Oct 2, 2008 3:53 PM:

" Deb, a fetus has the same genetic make up as the mother? "

Pro Choice Republican wrote on Oct 2, 2008 3:48 PM:

" I am a pro choice Republican, the only thing I find crazy, most of the same people that are pro choice are also the ones trying to protect everyone and everything else. Animals, minorities, and poor people are supposed to be given everything, but an unborn child has no rights. It just seems ironic to me. "

NDFREEZE wrote on Oct 2, 2008 3:24 PM:

" Its plain and simple -- leave it up to the person or persons whos child it will or won't be.
Why does everyone stick their noses in other peoples lifes, it doesn't effect you. "

Deb wrote on Oct 2, 2008 3:18 PM:

" NDSU Student: there's so much wrong with your "biology" post I don't even know where to start. But here's what I will say: you quote what you think is a scientific fact (which it isn't) and then you go right into an opinion, as though the scientific fact backs up your opinion. First, it's a bad habit to get into - and second, it's unfortunately used a lot by people to prove their points.

Thankfully we live in a country that lives by the Constitution and not the Bible. And thankfully science is valued more than fairy tales. "

harpua wrote on Oct 2, 2008 2:43 PM:

" NDSU Student...So if I knocked up my girlfriend this weekend, I should be able to go and get a social security card for the fetus on Monday? "

Choice is a Womens Right wrote on Oct 2, 2008 2:04 PM:

" In a 2006 Alaska debate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcafMXWwNPI) Sarah Palin stated that she would choose life for the child even if her daughter was "Raped"! In addition, as mayor of her town Wasila, AK, she required the woman victims of Rape to pay for the Rape exam if they came into the hospital (approx $1,000). Those two stances on Abortion by Palin are not shared values with most American Women. Nobody can refute this FACT about Palin. Watch the video. This should scare the heck out of most women to think that Palin's religious views are so "right wing" that she would make you have a rapists baby. Belive me, she will try to get Supreme Court Justices appointed to overturn Roe V Wade. Can you imagine having a rapists baby? How absurd. "

To annoyed wrote on Oct 2, 2008 12:46 PM:

" You said in your post this young person has to live with the fact that his real mother ditched him because she was raped. Lets think actually think about the child. Pro-Life is about the child. The child is alive, and that is whats most important. Pro-life isnt about restricting the rights of women (though some people may view it that way) its about allowing the most innocent life to continue living. "

NDSU student wrote on Oct 2, 2008 11:48 AM:

" Really, the jury is still out on when life begins? According to biology, the moment that the egg and sperm join, that is a genetically distinct individual. So I would say at the moment of conception is when life begins. If the cells were just the woman's cells, then your argument makes a great deal of sense. The fact is, that is a genetically different person from the mother. "

agrre with JP wrote on Oct 2, 2008 11:38 AM:

" I completely agree with JP. I think that people are (or should be) smarter than that. Great comment! "

Honest Omar wrote on Oct 2, 2008 11:30 AM:

" JP - I fervently hope that your last sentence is correct, but I have little confidence. Once they put on the bible blinders, reason is the first to fall. "

JP wrote on Oct 2, 2008 11:14 AM:

" If you are pro-life you best be protesting at most hospitals... if they perform a vasectomy aren't they also "taking away the opportunity of a life." While I do not agree with abortion... I do believe in having the choice. I also believe most voters are more intelligent than to decide an election based on one issue... "

annoyed wrote on Oct 2, 2008 10:42 AM:

" here we go again. Why don't we just have getting a haircut be unconstitutional, too? What a woman does to her body is her choice. When it wasn't her choice, as in rape, and she becomes pregnant, it is stll her choice to do what is best for her. No I'm not being selfish. I'm thinking about the now teenage brought into this world and given up for adoption at birth. Sure the new parents love this child, but this young person has to live with the fact that his real mother ditched him because she was raped. Let's actually think about the child. "

To Bis Prof wrote on Oct 2, 2008 10:34 AM:

" All I can say is well said. You are obviously a very educated person. I am blown away by your statement. It just makes obvious sense. Oh and to Facts: They will never teach the bible or religion in public schools because not every religion believes in the bible and not ever child in public schools is a christian. There are so many other religions out there why should one push a religion onto someone that they do not believe. Open your eyes. Pushing a religion onto someone who has different beliefs is rude. You can sit and read your bible all day long and believe what you believe, but don't push something onto others they don't want to learn. Even with me being a christian, your statement really offended me. Let people practice what they want to practice and if it's not to your liking deal with it. and move on. "

MamaMia wrote on Oct 2, 2008 10:13 AM:

" FACTS: It is very obvious that you don't let FACTS get in the way of your twisted opinions. "

Bis Prof wrote on Oct 2, 2008 12:49 AM:

" To NDSU student;

The right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness seems a valid argument against abortion when considering the phrase "right to life." However, the issue is far more complex. For example, a woman is pregnant. At this time it is still her body, correct? So the state mandates that the cells growing within her have rights. Now the state has the right to tell her what to do regarding her pregnancy? Let's review. First, we the have the complex issue of the woman as an individual with rights versus the fetus as an individual with rights, bearing in mind that the fetus is not unlike a parasite at this point for it cannot exist without the mother. Second, to use a clich phrase, "the jury is still out" on when life actually begins. Is it at the moment of conception? How so? This must be proven. Third, if the state begins dictating to pregnant women that they must have their babies, is this not a totalitarian regime not unlike Hitlers? "

NDSU student wrote on Oct 1, 2008 10:02 PM:

" Ok for all those that think all those opposed to abortion have only the Bible behind them supporting their opinion/argument: what about the very right to life that abortion is denying all the babies that are aborted? This right is the first one listed in the Declaration of Independence, and is considered unalienable. How, then, is abortion even constitutional? "

Facts wrote on Oct 1, 2008 8:07 PM:

" While I support Mr. Mitzel's statement, I firmly believe, however, that the most important issue in government is to allow and permit public schools to teach the Bible, prayer, and the 10 Commandments. God instituted government in the Book of Genesis and it still exists today. America is a nation that is founded on Christian values and principles based on the Bible. If you don't believe me, all you need to do is to examine the founding documents of our nation, study the lives of our nation's early fathers, and examine the markings in and our nation's federal buildings in Washington D.C. and you will clearly see the evidence of our nation's Godly heritage. Unfortunately, people are too lazy or adverse to the clear teachings in the Scriptures. If people would only faithfully and obediently follow the Bible as the only source of truth and authority, our nation would once again be a Godly nation and that is a fact!!! "

farmer wrote on Oct 1, 2008 7:57 PM:

" To Karen, What a self-centered statement! You want your freedom to make a choice, but in turn you are taking that same freedom away from one of God's babies. Think about it and pray real hard about whom you vote for. You will hear if you listen! "

Choice is your right wrote on Oct 1, 2008 6:19 PM:

" Someone can personally be against abortion but have the insight to allow every woman choose for themselves. Chances are, the Pro Life advocates justify their abortion stance based on their religion. Question...why should you be able to push your religious views on others people. You shouldn't. This nation has freedom of religion as well as separation of church and state. We don't allow religious zealots (Muslim, Jewish, Mormon or Christian) to decide for Americans what they have to believe including Pro Life. So its fine if you believe that abortion is wrong and not for you but you have "NO RIGHT" to tell anyone else how to live their life. Religious Extremists will not steal this election based on 1 issue voting, the American people are too smart for that this time around. "

Karen wrote on Oct 1, 2008 4:45 PM:

" Freedom is the right to choose. I will not vote for anyone who threatens to take a choice away. "

To All wrote on Oct 1, 2008 4:16 PM:

" I can't believe Mr. Mitzel has the nerve to say that abortion is the top issue facing this country. I agree that life is valuable to a certain extent. On the other hand, I have food to put in my children's stomachs, bills to pay, and my family to take care of. So, to be honest with you all, I don't care.

Maybe I'm a pesimist and maybe I'm heartless, but when all is said and done we all die. We can all argue, fight and disagree until we are blue in the face, but the fact is that no one here is willing to quit complaining and take action on either side.

And just for clarification, I personally would not allow my wife to have an abortion unless it would conflict with her quality of life. In which case it is legal. I could really care less if a neighbor, friend, co-worker, or relative had an abortion. I have more important things to take care of. "

Online Editor wrote on Oct 1, 2008 2:55 PM:

" To This is Nuts: The reason your comments were deleted is because they were in poor taste. My opinion has no value in this debate, my job is to try to keep it civil. "

womens choice wrote on Oct 1, 2008 2:30 PM:

" I agree with to a reader.... if you don't support abortion then don't ever have one. It has been deemed legal in the U.S. and if you don't like it then too bad. Abortion is not what needs to be the main focus in this election. there are many many other topics of more importance. It is the women's decision whether or not they want to have an abortion. Taking that away is wrong. There are many crcumstances in which a woman may decide she wants to have an abortion, and whatever the reason it is her decision and there is nothing anyone can do to stop her. Whether it is becauce of incest, rape, her life's in danger or whatever other reason the woman decides. It is none of our business. The fact of the matter is that it is legal. If someone has a problem with it they have the right to express their opinions in any which way, whether it be protesting outside of an abortion clinic or writing a letter to the newspaper. But basing your decision on who to vote for for president because they are either pro choice or pro life is wrong. There are more impartnat issues to look into when choosing who to vote for. "

harpua wrote on Oct 1, 2008 11:27 AM:

" Palin supports manditory government birthings... "

Pro Birth Control wrote on Oct 1, 2008 11:27 AM:

" According to the study "Trends in Premarital Sex in the United States, 1954-2003," 9 out of 10 people have sex before marriage, even those that abstained during their teens. Wouldn't it be great to live in a world where there is comprehensive sex education and access to complete health services for all, so that there never would be an unintended and unwanted pregnancy? This is the view Obama holds, one of MANY reasons I'll be voting for him. "

My Opinion wrote on Oct 1, 2008 10:11 AM:

" In my previous post I mentioned "You're All Nuts" and that is a mistake. I meant "This is Nuts" as the poster. My Bad! "

My Opinion wrote on Oct 1, 2008 10:10 AM:

" I'd like to ask people like "You're All Nuts" and those who support adoption instead of abortion - Exactly how many children have you adopted? Children born and bred in the US? There are thousands of children who need homes - so You're All Nuts - how many have you adopted? And...have you adopted only babies? Or, have you adopted older children? I ask this because I personally have adopted 2 older children (older than 10) and it is a significant challenge. I'm curious to all the anti-abortion people, just exactly how have you taken care of the unwanted yet born children in the US.

To Whatever: Your statistics were surprising only because I had not seen them before. But, from those statistics, it shows that the self-same people who are touting anti-abortion are the ones who are having abortions.

I myself - Pro-Choice - what I would choose I do not know because I have not yet been in that position. I cannot judge another person's choice - it is not my place - nor is it my business. To the Christians - you were told in the Bible "Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged." Anyone who chooses to have an abortion must live with that choice and it is nobodies place to say if the choice was right or wrong. That is between the person having the abortion and their own beliefs and conscience. What I believe, I believe, but that does not mean that anyone else must believe the same way. "

This is nuts wrote on Sep 30, 2008 10:55 PM:

" To Whatever, so what Church are you attending that you see that the members are NOT providing Foster Care, Donating to those in need and adopting children of all races? I have always witnessed just the opposite of what you just stated.

Your percentages are obscured by total populations within the individual sectors. "

whatever wrote on Sep 30, 2008 10:13 PM:

" Where are all the Christians, how come they are not lined up to become foster parents, or adopt children. I don't see christians knocking on doors to help a single mom who needs transportation, or volunteering at a homeless shelter. Or mentoring to a teenager. I love what Jesus did for this world but I really do not like Christians. If churches would do what they are sapose to do and actully help people we wouldn't need the government. "

whatever wrote on Sep 30, 2008 10:00 PM:

" Abortion is an important issue. But I think having a home and putting food on the table for my children are just as important. I think the right and the left are both wrong on this issue. Here are some interesting statistics from abortionno.org

Who's having abortions (religion)?
Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical".

Who's having abortions (income)?
Women with family incomes less than $15,000 obtain 28.7% of all abortions; Women with family incomes between $15,000 and $29,999 obtain 19.5%; Women with family incomes between $30,000 and $59,999 obtain 38.0%; Women with family incomes over $60,000 obtain 13.8%.

For those of you who value pro-life as the most important issue in this election I would challenge you to put your values and belief into something real and and dig into your pockets and donate moeny to support programs that prevent unwanted pregnancies and to support adoption programs. There are a couple of non-profit adoption agencies in Bismarck, Catholic Charities and Village Family Services. "

This is nuts wrote on Sep 30, 2008 7:15 PM:

" Prof; God is no more resonsible for the miscarriages of babies then He is resposible for the shooting accidents of the world.

Using the fact that there are miscarriages to support the practice of abortion is as lame as saying that it is ok for people to shoot people because many are shot accidently anyway.

Fine, it's not the best analogy.

You would have to believe in God to understand how the sins of the world effect us all. "

NYxND wrote on Sep 30, 2008 6:10 PM:

" Bis Prof.

To answer your question about how it affects us all.

1. As stated by Wow, it would appear that society would lose out because of some bizarre futures-market of human potential logic.

2. Duh. By advocating and turning a blind eye to the practice, Society as a whole is sentenced to eternal damnation.

I'll try to think of some other ways... "

Real Guy wrote on Sep 30, 2008 5:56 PM:

" I love being called "judgmental" because I am and am proud of it. Being judgmental is about discerning right from wrong and abortion is wrong.

Very seldom is there ever a truely justifiable reason for an abortion, only to save the life of the mother. Surely you pro abortionists know that it is well documented that rape and incest account for only about 1% of all abortions nationwide. In most cases adoption is a reasonable alternative.

I just don't understand what thrill you pro abortionists get from the killing of babies. "

Bis Prof wrote on Sep 30, 2008 4:24 PM:

" To: This Is Nuts

I'm sorry, but your hunting analogy is not an effective retort to Omar's "god as an abortionist "statement. Could you please expound?
Thank you,
BP "

Bis Prof wrote on Sep 30, 2008 4:16 PM:

" Many of the posts here state that abortion affects all of us, yet this statement is not supported with examples. i would like someone to expound upon how abortion affects all of us. "

kewpie wrote on Sep 30, 2008 1:38 PM:

" The pro life issue is a smokescreen that has been abused by republicans.
During this administration, we had a so-called pro life republican president, a so -called majority of pro lifers in the house and senate, and abortions were left untouched. You all have fallen for a classic lie. The republicans are no more pro life in practice than the democrats. However, republicans are banking on you making that a single issue so they can get reelected. On abortion, both parties are on equal ground, with equal disregard for the unborn. "

This is nuts wrote on Sep 30, 2008 12:54 PM:

" Omar, There are also thousands of hunting accidents each year does that then make it right to just shoot people?

Where do you pro-abortionists draw the line, a baby in the womb isn't dependent on their natural mother, a baby is dependent on human care in and out of the womb. That is why it is possible to have surrogate mothers and extremely premature babies thrive.

When is it wrong to end the life of a baby? Is it ok as long as it is hidden in a womb, and is it still ok to end the life as the baby is birthed as long as it is still partially hidden. Does only become wrong when it is totally out of the birthing canal and often dumbed in a bathroom trash can?

How can you be so bold and arrogant as to draw the line? "

LJK wrote on Sep 30, 2008 12:25 PM:

" The term "pro abortion" makes it seem like somewhere out there exists a group of women who dream of or truly desire an abortion. I've known a lot of women who have terminated pregnancies, but none who were giddy about it or took the decision lightly. One thing I've never understood...the concept and consequences of an unwanted pregnancy (single parenthood, potential welfare recipients, marriages that are established for the wrong reason and will most likely dissolve) all fly against the family values promoted by conservatives. It seems like abortion would be high on their list as a means to prevent the further destruction of family stability (and please don't give the adoption arguement as a viable solution to abortion; most young unmarried women do not put up the baby for adoption, and that's a fact.) And speaking of that, I remember an interview with Bush Sr., wherein he was asked what would happen were any of his granddaughters to become pregnant (they were young girls at the time). His response was that "It would have to be a decision for the family to make". Interesting that when his own family was involved, he wanted the option of choice available, but he apparently thought no one else's family deserved that same consideration. Whether or not they are legal and safe, abortions happen. Trying to deny that reality will not change it. "

Mandan wrote on Sep 30, 2008 12:03 PM:

" to real guy I missed your previous comment about prolife being about innocent and weakest among us and you bringing in the disabled, sick and elderly? I am disabled and my son has been ill all his life and my husbands grandfather is 83 yrs old and not one of us would be considered weak much less innocent by any means so do not try to say that pro life is about anything other than what it really is, a bunch of people that think they should be moral police and tell women what they can do with their bodies! It has NOTHING to do with anything else!

to a reader: you are correct about the verse and those that use the bible for their pro life baloney should actually read it although I do not believe that religion should be brought into any laws! "

Mandan wrote on Sep 30, 2008 11:52 AM:

" To real guy: your list of bad choices only points at women and why is that? Your number one is BULL because if there were not sick men out there we would not have rape and incest now would we! number 2 why is there a man out there having sex without a life commitment as you say? 3) birth control is not 100% BUT why isn't the man responsible for it? And for your last ridiculous point, many rape victims do not want to relive the crime everyday until the birth and then with incest you have got to be kidding me. Yeah that 8,9,10, etc age girl should have to go through this, and possibly die so that you can have your way? I don't think so! I have had to watch that young girl die in childbirth because of people like you that thought she should go through the pregnancy for an adoption, unfortunately in the end both 9yr old and baby(stillborn) were dead! "

Honest Omar wrote on Sep 30, 2008 10:53 AM:

" To This is Nuts (and all the other anti-choicers)
You surely must know that thousands of embryos/fetuses are spontaneously aborted every year, often without the knowledge of the woman, making your god the biggest abortionist of all. "

NYxND wrote on Sep 30, 2008 10:51 AM:

" Wow wrote: "Taking that life could be taking the life of the next scientist that could have cured cancer, or developed the next environmentally efficient power source...so you see it is of great importance to choose a president that is pro life! "

Actually Wow, in the ideal pro-life world there wouldn't be any advances in science and no break-throughs to cure cancer. See, science wouldn't be taught in school and new and progressive research wouldn't be allowed due to moral and religious objections. So your argument really makes no sense. "

warmachine wrote on Sep 30, 2008 9:10 AM:

" A reader - Sorry....references to verses in the bible are not crushing rejoinders in a rational debate. "

farmer wrote on Sep 30, 2008 6:40 AM:

" I am a republican farmer that often gets asked why I vote republican when the democrat politicians give more to the farmers. I believe that when I get to heaven someday, God will not care if I was happy with my farm bill, enjoyed good commodity prices and drove new equipment. He will not be impressed with my bank account or stock markets, those are all things that pertain to me and not Him. But He will care if I voted for someone that had the power to protect life and did not. For all the lives that were lost in Iraq, something had to be done to stop the way the people were being treated over there for such a long time. "

NYxND wrote on Sep 30, 2008 12:02 AM:

" hey real guy.

Do I really have to point out that this is 2008 to you? Even saying that, do you realize the biological nature of our species that contradicts all the "choices" you list? Every scenario you paint has been an issue since the dawn of humanity. It is only through non-governmental moral guidance that our children can be educated to act responsibly. You belittle our human nature by your list of "choices." I guess what I am trying to say is that by your interpretation you would have a society where every girl who has reached puberty wear a chastity belt. Look, I agree with you that there are many choices an individual has to make that lead to an unwanted pregnancy, But by your rational you are advocating for MORE government involvement in personal matters. Something that is not the job of the government and more the fault of parenting. It is a lack of responsibility on the part of the family and not a lack of responsibility on the part of the government that there are unwanted pregnancies. The government did NOT create the problem of unwanted pregnancies. The government is only trying to provide the best possible solution to the problem. The problem begins in the home.

So I will again propose my solution, which I have posted here every time this issue has come up. Mandatory reversable vasectomies for every male who has reached the age of puberty. This surgery will only be reversed once the individual has proven himself capable of securing a healthy and responsible environment for any offspring. Basically it is a call for a License to Procreate.

I think the numbers would support me that this idea would work much better than Abstinence-Only education, which (according to the data http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/28/earlyshow/health/health_news/main3976972.shtml) is only leading to more STI's and "immoral" behavior. What do you think? "

to real guy wrote on Sep 29, 2008 9:54 PM:

" all those choices you named off, not yours to make either. but it does show how the pro-lifers love to judge. The truly sick part is using religion to justify it. None of you truly know God's will; it's merely your interoperation of it. "

Real Guy wrote on Sep 29, 2008 6:23 PM:

" If it weren't so serious and sad, I would get a kick out of you pro abortion zealots who call yourselves "pro-choice." We forget about the choices woman make that lead up to an abortion. (1) the Choice of putting themselves in a high risk situation; (2) the Choice of having sex with someone they do not intend to make a life commitment to; (3) the Choice of not using birth control; (4) the Choice of chosing an abortion over adoption.

Also, I abortion is the the only issue you believe in "choice" on. I happen to be pro-choice on education...allowing parents to chose to send their children to a private school so they can have a better education. Now that's my kind of choice.

Nixon did not legalize abortion. I was 7 unelected radical supreme court justices. If abortion had not been forced upon us, but decided by a vote of the people or a legislative process, it would not be the divisive topic it is today. "

Because wrote on Sep 29, 2008 3:59 PM:

" The act of preservation of life is not radical. The people who think that they can judge others based on thier being Christians (total oxymoron by the way) and tell people that they are affecting our entire nation by having a discreet medical procedure in the same way or worse than a failing economy is. As others have stated, being pro choice does not mean one has to choose to have an abortion. I never would or could, but what does it do to me if Miss Jones in the next state has one? It doesn't. It truly doesn't. That is my point. "

A reader wrote on Sep 29, 2008 3:53 PM:

" The anti-abortion people tend to forget that not everyone agrees with their definition of life, not even the Bible. Keep in mind the biblical definition of life is the first breath, NOT before. (Genesis 2:7) So you are backing biblical morality with your own definitions of when life begins to suit your own needs. Makes you wonder WHERE you made up your morals then? They aren't what is generally approved in America, and are not biblical in nature. Hmmmm... "

Wow wrote on Sep 29, 2008 3:28 PM:

" Christian I am...radical I'm not...When did the preservation of life become radical...sheesh! "

Because wrote on Sep 29, 2008 2:41 PM:

" If I, a stranger to you, have an abortion it doesn't effect you and you don't even know about it. That is why it is not a major issue. A major issue is one that affects everyone, not just radical Christians. "

Mitzee wrote on Sep 29, 2008 1:52 PM:

" Yes, this is nuts!!! I would never have an abortation--but I don't have the right to tell someelse what to do with their body---how about those who have their tubes tied and use other forms of birth control and by the way didn't I read somewhere that roe v wade came into law in 1973----wasn't Richard Nixon president at that time??????---so why blame the "liberals" There are issues far more important then this that is on the table now!!!! BANKS AND ECONOMY -- feeding and educating children is very improtant too. "

Punker wrote on Sep 29, 2008 1:29 PM:

" Is this Russia? This isn't Russia, is it Danny?!?! "

Respect Life wrote on Sep 29, 2008 1:04 PM:

" There is no need to bring religion into this issue. In fact it shouldnt be because we have the freedom of religion in this country and our laws are independent of any religion. But, the respect for human life is an inherent trait to all human beings, no matter what your beliefs are. Everyone knows that killing another person is wrong. So why is killing an unborn child any different? "

Real Guy wrote on Sep 29, 2008 12:49 PM:

" I think all you pro abortion nuts are missing the larger picture. Being pro-life isn't just about abortion, its about larger values. Being pro-life means valuing INNOCENT human life and caring for and protecting the rights of the weakest among us, the unborn, disabled, sick, elderly, etc. It was Thomas Jefferson that said life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness are our most inalienable rights.

You pro-abortion zealots are so narrow minded and uncompassionate! "

Wow wrote on Sep 29, 2008 12:30 PM:

" Sparky...your anger speaks volumes. Why can pro-death have a voice and not prolife...sad! "

Mandan wrote on Sep 29, 2008 12:30 PM:

" Mitzel there are way more important problems in this time than YOUR OPINION on a law that is already on the books That is not going to change! Abortion is not a priority or an issue except to the people that think they should tell somebody else what they can or cannot do with their bodies! And I don't want to hear that this is not their body we are talking about because it is! You have no idea what most women are going through when they go for an abortion, most are rape or incest or medically not able to go through a pregnancy. There are a very tiny few who use it as birth control which I think is ridiculous but that is their choice and if they do that too many times they will probably not be able to have a child later but that is their fault.
People like mitzel, wow and this is nuts want to tell others how to run their lives but I am pretty sure their lives are not so pure and innocent to "throw stones"! So get over yourselves! "

Grumpy Old Republican wrote on Sep 29, 2008 12:22 PM:

" There are MANY issues to look at when determining how to cast one's vote in an election. Folks who vote "one-trick-pony" style, focusing on a single issue and ignoring all others, should stay home on election day. "

Deb wrote on Sep 29, 2008 12:20 PM:

" For the record, Mr. Mitzel, NO ONE, including Barack Obama, is "for" or "pro-" abortion. NO ONE is a "supporter" of abortion. Those of us who believe in equal rights of all Americans are pro-CHOICE.

I'm wondering, Mr. Mitzel, if in your world, it is an abomination against God or society or whatever for a man to get a vasectomy? I mean, he's potentially robbing the world of a future scientist, isn't he? I'm wondering, if in your world, it wouldn't be better to just ban all medical procedures on the reproductive organs - just let God do his will???

Obama '08 "

ToThis is Nuts wrote on Sep 29, 2008 12:07 PM:

" Ok, let's return the laws back to when Jefferson and the boys created a land that was FREE from any one particular religion being supreme. Let's go back to that original principal. Others over the years have changed the original laws to better fit YOUR moral and beliefs. "

Sparky wrote on Sep 29, 2008 12:01 PM:

" To Wow, if you think that every abortion robs us of a future scientist, etc. you had better be having sex EVERY opportunity you have and having child after child until you are incapable because with your logic, every time you decide not to have sex, you are robbing society of a future scientist, ect. Or, every time you use birth control, you are robbing society. "

warmachine wrote on Sep 29, 2008 11:46 AM:

" Well this is nuts....roe vs wade IS the law so I suggest you take your own advice and leave....we are a land of laws....or am I misunderstanding you? "

This is nuts wrote on Sep 29, 2008 11:27 AM:

" Ok, try this then. That is fine, now just return the laws back to before roe and you liberal lefties go find and move to a country that fits your beliefs.

You are the people that have changed the laws of my country to fit your beliefs not the other way around. What gives you the right to shove your immoral values down my throat. We have always been a land of laws, if you can't live with them leave!! Like I said, you have led the degradation of our society through your fight for individual immoral freedoms! And yes they do effect us all!! "

warmachine wrote on Sep 29, 2008 11:23 AM:

" "This is nuts" isn't your omnipotent "god" allowing these 50million murders (your choice of words) and did he / she die and leave you in charge to decide to protect us from ourselves? "

To This is Nuts wrote on Sep 29, 2008 11:11 AM:

" Ok, try this then. Keep YOUR God away from all those who have nothing to do with YOUR God. That is your own opinion, unless by some FACT you can prove it. Not everyone sees things like you do. "

This is nuts wrote on Sep 29, 2008 10:48 AM:

" To mama, I and other pro-life advocates could careless about the body of your daughters and neices, it is the body of the human life that they may choose to conceive that we want to protect. If you don't want a baby take precautions, murder however is not a logical or humane method of birth control!

To Opinion, to some of us that believe there is a God , we also believe that we can be in or out of God's favor. If you are worried about your finances you should be worried about the 50 million babies that we have murdered against the will of God. "

Wow wrote on Sep 29, 2008 10:33 AM:

" How sad that we have become so callous and so self-absorbed that we can't see how abortion hurts all of us...from the BABY that is murdered to the mother who is carrying that baby, to the father,(and in a lot of cases, wants the baby), to the grand parents who may or may not even know about the pregnancy. Taking that life could be taking the life of the next scientist that could have cured cancer, or developed the next environmentally efficient power source...so you see it is of great importance to choose a president that is pro life! "

warmachine wrote on Sep 29, 2008 10:29 AM:

" I'm not sure what MamaMia is opining...however rowe vs. wade is, and has been, the law.... which won't be overturned. If it is an issue with anyone it is for conversation simply. Politicians need not talk about the abortion issue anymore than tort laws....old news that is for research and complaints. Women need NO advice on their bodies....and certainly NOT from a politician. "

My Opinion wrote on Sep 29, 2008 10:07 AM:

" It is people like Mr. Mitzel and "You're All Nuts" that keep me a Pro-Choice proponent.

And...in the grand scheme of things, today I worry far more about feeding my existing family, heating my existing families living space, and providing for my existing family than whether there is a fetus somewhere that may or may not be born.

We face an economic disaster as greater or greater than the Great Depression and these two are ranting about abortion? I just don't understand their priorities. "

MamaMia wrote on Sep 29, 2008 10:00 AM:

" Here's what's important, Bill. Keep your opinions and your laws away from my body and my daughter's and nieces' bodies. End of story. "

This is nuts wrote on Sep 29, 2008 9:57 AM:

" Abortion is legal because some sick minded, liberal, left winged supreme court judges decided it was ok for them to play God. Liberals say, go ahead kill babies!!!

The degradation of our society can be placed firmly on the backs of these judges and the liberal left as a whole. From the freedoms allowed in the entertainment media to social issues the liberals have trashed our country.

You are right on Mr. Mitzel!!! "

Enough wrote on Sep 29, 2008 9:55 AM:

" Bill Mitzel, while I am do not like abortion, there is education and the use of safe sex methods. Right now abortion is NOT; repeat NOT a big issue with me or other members of the voting electorate. The prospect of my life savings and retirement accounts being wiped out are of a greater concern right now. If you and I are standing in a soup line in a month or two or trying hard to figure how we are going to feed our families or pay the bills, abortion will be the last of our concerns. "

Wow wrote on Sep 29, 2008 9:31 AM:

" Against life...against all the other issues because without it you have nothing! "

NDr wrote on Sep 29, 2008 9:30 AM:

" My question is always this. How is it so many religous people backed GW and his crony's because their against abortion but they had no problem with the 10's of thousands they killed in Iraq on false information? Yet, they won't support a person who's personally against abortion, but for the law because they believe that this is a nation of people with different beliefs and that it's the churches duties to raise their flocks morals and to help their flocks out so they won't have an abortion?

I remember the days when abortion wasn't legal. Back then if a young girl became pregnant her parents would disown her and there were no programs for her. She and her baby were subjected to a life of poverty and shame. Meanwhile, the guy involved went along with business as usual. When Roe Wade came to be, all of a sudden these young girls had a way out of the doom their religous leaders put on them. All of a sudden, the far right started pushing for education programs, child care programs, and other things to help these young girls out. They finally had to get off their high horses and become real Christians. You know, the ones who truly walk in the shoes of Jesus and tape the sinners under their wings instead of damning them for the rest of their lives. I'm very against abortion. But I do believe not all people believe as I do and it's my churches job to teach it's flock to not have one and to offer help to our flock so they don't. I will always vote for the person who wants to help the poor and downtrodden and avoid war at ALL costs. They are the true Christians. "

To a reader wrote on Sep 29, 2008 9:05 AM:

" EXACTLY right! Abortion is legal, so Obama supports following the law. Abortion is the last thing choosing a candidate should be based on- simple fact; if YOU don't believe in abortion, dont get one. That's the beauty of "Pro- Choice". (Same could be said for gay marriage) It may not fit you but that doesn't mean it doesn't fit some people. I am not a hunter, but thats legal. "

NYxND wrote on Sep 29, 2008 8:06 AM:

" Since when is "health care, the economy, the war in Iraq, agriculture, schools, low wages" not supporting life? Sometimes I wish people like Mr. Mitzel would practice abstinence... "

anon wrote on Sep 29, 2008 7:42 AM:

" Mr. Mitzel, abortion is not a national security or national economy issue. THOSE TWO issues are top priority for this election. You might want to re-evaluate your priorities. "

A Reader wrote on Sep 29, 2008 7:40 AM:

" Maybe he is smart enough to stay far, far away from the abortion issue. Technically it isn't an issue at all. The law clearly states it is legal, so unlike Bush Sr and Jr, Obama might actually RESPECT existing laws instead of assuming the executive branch doesn't really have to pay attention to him. Personally the abortion issue is about the last thing I really care about as far as politics. It honestly won't affect me either way, if Rowe vs Wade is upheld or overturned. Whereas there is no way I can afford to have another Republican in the white house. Bush Jr has done so much damage to our country and economy already, another version of him and we are doomed. "

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