Bismarck Tribune - North Dakota News - Separating kids from mothers

Separating kids from mothers

Apr 25, 2008 - 04:05:07 CDT

By MARCY ALDINGER
Mandan

As a mother, my heart is breaking for the kids in the Texas polygamist colony who are separated from their mothers.

What do readers think of the Texas authorities' move to separate more than 400 children from their mothers (some kids as young as 5 years old) and transport them to foster care more than 500 miles away? All this is when allegations of underage marriage and abuse are still being investigated.

Don't people think that there is a better way to conduct the investigation while ensuring the safety of the children and maintaining their sense of security, thus minimizing related separation trauma? Perhaps the women and children could have remained on the compound in familiar surroundings under the watchful eye of authorities, and the men could have been detained elsewhere.

Would this extreme action have been taken if their beliefs weren't outside the mainstream?

What do your readers think?

News > Opinion

Printer friendly version Separating kids from mothers

Comments

fp wrote on May 3, 2008 12:10 AM:

" To Rex: Reno didn`t kill anyone. It fits your fox news mind set that she did. It`s libelous for you to even say that. These are complicated issues, the kind you couldn`t ever grasp. In my opinion it`s another example of the destuctive nature of religion. I feel so bad for these children and I feel bad for their mothers. The women seem blanked out but they still love their kids no matter what anyone says.Like I say these are complicated issues and I think REX should stick with the only thing he knows ...Bashing Liberals and worshipping his idiot idol W. "

mom-of-teens wrote on May 2, 2008 5:29 PM:

" To AEB, I agree with you. Excellent post. "

AEB wrote on May 2, 2008 4:32 PM:

" To Open Minded: It is a little embarassing to call people out on something that you do yourself, isn't it? That website you referred to...do you use it yourself? "

AEB wrote on May 2, 2008 4:27 PM:

" Anyone who thinks that it would be better for these kids to remain with the parents is just ignorant. All the authorities needed to go in to investigate the allegations was a good faith belief. That is what they had when they went in and when they got there, it was obvious that young girls were being sexually abused. A child CANNOT consent to sex with an adult man. It is disgusting. And to say that the mothers should be allowed to keep their children with them because they weren't the ones abusing them is stupid. They were not protecting their children. They were allowing them to be raped and brainwashed and forced into a life without even knowing that another life could exist for them somewhere else. The mothers are perpetuating the legacy of abuse and in my eyes, they are not any less culpable than the men. It has nothing to do with being "mainstream". If you rape a child, I don't care if you are a member of some mysterious religion or if you are a former cast member of Saved By The Bell who went on to live a completely normal life in some suburban community, you deserve to go to jail and that's it. If the children are wanting to return to their parents it has more to do with them not knowing anything different than it is a reflection on what kind of parents these people are. The children are the VICTIMS here. Not their parents. "

waralan wrote on May 2, 2008 2:02 PM:

" If religion were the only question here, it would make sense to have children stay with their parents.
However, from my study of the Bible, I read that husbands should respect their wifes, and the othe way around . Children are taught to respect their parents.
For the life of me I see where nowdays husbands should be married to one wife. Of course, I will conceed that wasn't always the case.
Thus the children should be seperated from the parents, so they won't be brainwashed. "

REX wrote on May 2, 2008 8:32 AM:

" But Southpark! They're Christians! Just ask 'em. "

Southpark wrote on May 1, 2008 8:23 PM:

" Sometimes I read these articles and can't believe what I read. These kids were taken away for a reason. The latest information shows that girls between the ages of 14-17 were pregnant or have given birth. Where are their mothers when they are pushing them off to have sex with an old man? These women are clearly brain washed or just plain stupid. These kids need to be in a safe environment while the investigation is on going. "

Ezra wrote on May 1, 2008 5:07 PM:

" Religion is great. You can abuse children, rip off old ladies, or commit just about any fraud, and you need not worry about a thing. It is all legal if you are a church, Now for the bonus, you pay no taxes. Look at some of the all time religous thieves, Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swagart, Jimmy Baker, and on the list goes. The Catholic Church has paid out close to a billion for sex abuse, but people never get an once smarter. Sad that children are the main victims of Churches gone wild. Will we ever get rid of this superstition? "

mom-of-teens wrote on Apr 30, 2008 5:48 PM:

" Ok curious, let's narrow down the "abusers" to the men and the "first wives club" then. What does it matter? The children are in danger in THAT environment, end of story. Which is why they were taken away in the first place. To open minded, multiple marriage between two adults is one thing, between under age children is something entirely different. Perhaps you want to clarify that in your post before you do your spell check. As far as the whole argument about religious tolerance, that has been covered quite in depth, and most people here have decided this is not about religious tolerance, this is about child protection. If there was a secret underground religion that tolerated marriage between homosexuals, would you be as tolerant or accepting? I think as a society, we are so careful to pick our battles, but in doing so, we miss a lot along the way. "

wrote on Apr 30, 2008 5:38 PM:

" It seems that the girls aren't the only ones being abused. This headline is under the "breaking news" column.
'Texas officials looking at possible abuse among FLDS boys'

"

REX wrote on Apr 30, 2008 5:20 PM:

" Bono, We don't yet know what was being worshiped there but I thiought it was God not pedophiles. I still say we should have just sent Janet Reno there so she could murder them all like she did at the Branch Dividian Compound. "

Salley wrote on Apr 30, 2008 4:53 PM:

" I'm sorry but I will have to disagree with you on the labeling all the people in the "cult" "abusers". I understand that the young females with children may have not had a choice in the matter, but that is how they grew up. That is what they know. They obviousely do not know "right" from "wrong" as they stood by while this had happened.

On another note I do understand your point of view that they ( young females) were possible victims also. Good point you really got me thinking. I am glad others will have to decide what is right here because I would not like to make that decision for another. "

Crackes of Concern wrote on Apr 30, 2008 4:18 PM:

" This is an easy one - we should farm these kids out to people who can't have any. Plus they'll be much better off without the invuences of their parents. I don't know how many times i wish there were a law to take kids away from bad parents who don't know what they are doing- its our futures - Let's regulate kids. "

Bono wrote on Apr 30, 2008 1:30 PM:

" Rex - okay - I'll change my wording - this is not a "widely socially accepted" form of religion. A specific few crazy old pedophiles forcing people to worship them - whoa.....alot different than what most folks view as religion. "

Here we go again... wrote on Apr 30, 2008 1:01 PM:

" once again...Religion (Christianity) is brought up in yet another blog. Same people---everytime---bashing Christianity.
It's getting overdone and overused....
If you aren't Christian, fine. We get it. No one cares anymore that you are not. You go on EVERY blog here and try to heat things up with you Anti-Christian views...only to start an arguement.
Move on....we are sick of it!!!!

"

anonymous wrote on Apr 30, 2008 11:35 AM:

" correction: sect 14-17 year old girls outnumber 14-17 year old boys nearly THREE to 1. "

Curious wrote on Apr 30, 2008 11:25 AM:

" Sorry folks, but I still have a problem labeling EVERY person, male or female, who lived in that compound a perverted abuser who is unfit to have or care for a child. By applying that blanket label to ALL, you are saying a 19 year old woman who was born and/or raised in that sect, who most likely has a child (or children) of her own, is just as guilty, perverted and unfit to parent as the man who forced himself upon her at a young age. Many of these women were victims themselves...easy to say "why didn't you just leave?" Out here in the "real world", how many women who are abuse victims stay in or return to those abusive relationships time after time because they feel trapped and don't know where to go or are terrified their abuser will track them down anyways. It's the same deal with many of the women living in this sect, only worse, because so many have never been exposed to the outside world. I think it would've been far better to keep the young children and infants with these young women in a safe, protected environment rather than shipping them off in groups on busses and placed with strangers until everything is weeded out. There is hope for these young women if they can get away from the threats and domination of the men (and older women?) of that group. "

mom wrote on Apr 30, 2008 10:01 AM:

" hey open-minded; what's a 'poester'? Perhaps you should take your own advice on reviewing what you type? As far as other culture's beliefs...sure, anyone has the right to believe whatever they want...it's when the beliefs result in actions that are illegal and harm children like this, they need to be stopped! We have laws to protect children from these types of crimes. Are you advocating that because the parents' cultural background goes against the law's intent they should be exempt from prosecution? If so, what are your feelings on the religious based groups that have the belief that everyone not of their religion needs to be killed? "

MamaMia wrote on Apr 30, 2008 9:55 AM:

" REX: I'm with you! Some are big and some are small, but they're all cults. "

anonymous wrote on Apr 30, 2008 9:42 AM:

" I'm waiting to hear what they will find if they start digging up the children's cemetary. I'd bet the farm that there are many children that allegedly "died" due to defects from inbreeding. Also, the ratio of age 14-17 females to males is nearly 2:1, while age 0-13 is nearly 1:1. Also all this whining about tearing the children from their mothers....by their own admission, no one apparently knows who belongs to whom. It's been alleged some of these children belong to parents from other compounds. Rather this way than another Waco. "

LJK wrote on Apr 30, 2008 9:05 AM:

" Open-minded: This is not a freedom of religion issue, this is a human rights issue in regard to the children trapped in an unspeakable circumstance. We have specific laws to protect children in this country and using religion as an excuse to ignore those laws in order to perform acts of child abuse and molestation is not acceptable. They are young; unable to protect or be advocates for themselves and if the rest of stand by allowing the abuse, we are just as guilty as those committing the acts. "

REX wrote on Apr 30, 2008 8:29 AM:

" Bono Cult: {kult} n system of religious worship; pursuit of, devotion to, some person, thing, or activity. Harper Collins / Webster's Dictionary Christianity is also a cult, don't kid yourself. "

Salley wrote on Apr 30, 2008 7:08 AM:

" I want to give you people that think that those "child abusers" should get their children back right away another thing to think about. WOULD YOU LET YOUR CHILD STAY THERE? WOULD YOU BE UPSET IF YOUR BROTHER OR SISTERS FAMILY WAS IN THAT CULT? I THINK YOU WOULD BE! "

Salley wrote on Apr 30, 2008 7:00 AM:

" Are you kidding me? I think that it is disheartening to think that some people would be in support of these "child abusers" getting their children back right away. No way! Little girls around the age of 14 to be forced to marry and have children. They are taking away those little girls childhood. Those children will be better off with out such negative influences, like their parents, around. I am a female and I can't even imagine being 14 yrs. old, married, and with child. When I was 14 all I was worried about was going to school and hanging out with friends. WOW! Those poor children. "

Open-Minded wrote on Apr 30, 2008 4:45 AM:

" To begin, I would like to say that this is an interesting post to read and I find it very amusing. Do any of you poesters take the time to reread what you have jotted down? Obviously not after seeing all the spelling and grammatical errors. Maybe we should round up all the poor spellers and take their children away because that could be considered a form of abuse by some. Have any of you studied different cultures at all in your life? In Native American cultures some men had more than wife, I don't think we should be judging people based on their religious beliefs. Basically, that's what this boils down to is religion-it is sad I know and I don't believe in young girls being treated this way but do some research on the culture before you start criticizing. We only hear the negative stuff in the media, rarely do we hear the good. I know I'm going to see a lot of posting on this but this is my opinion. Just a little hint for everyone that does not have a dictionary at home www.dictionary.com!! "

mom-of-teens wrote on Apr 29, 2008 9:52 PM:

" The program tonight on WE called "Secret lives of women" talked about polygamy and there were interviews from women and children who are former members of the FLDS. Also interviewed Franklin again. Basically this program confirmed everything that we've all said about this situation. The fact that its a cult. The fact that girls as young as 13 are forced to marry and carry children, and the fact that this is a sick environment for children. A woman escaped with her children to Salt Lake City to get away from the abuse, she had to go into hiding, sue for custody of the kids and involve the attorney generals office for protection. She confirmed that young girls are forced to marry; that teenage boys (like Franklin) are banished from the compound because they are "competition" to the older men. They call them "the lost boys"; banished for typical teenage behavior; like drinking, listening to music, etc. Pretty much confirmed what I was feeling. Quite the program. If they re run it, I highly recommend watching it. Channel 66 or 119 if you have it. Also mentioned that the first wives are the higher ups compaired to the other wives, and use the children of the other wives as a way to control the other wives, and are abusive as well. Sounds like both men and women are abusive there. Children are abused if they refuse to sacrifice an animal using a kitchen knife and babies are held under water until they stop crying. There is a seperate cemetary specifically for babies, according to the program. I take back any doubt I MIGHT have had. "

Bono wrote on Apr 29, 2008 7:17 PM:

" I can't wait for the dna results. Then they can arrest the old pedophiles who raped the young girls and got them pregnant. There will be no lying about it then.

Rex - this isn't Christianity - this is a CULT. Don't confuse the 2. "

LJK wrote on Apr 29, 2008 7:04 PM:

" What is the alternative? To continue the practice of underage girls being saddled to old men and forced to have their children? You can't compare this mess to any kind of family unit found elsewhere in the country. It's sad, perverse and taking advantage of very young people. I am waiting for some of these "men" to step forward and defend their actions instead of literally hiding behind the skirts of the women. "

HB wrote on Apr 29, 2008 4:42 PM:

" Thank goodness someone was looking out for these kids! No child should be brought up in those conditions. I can't believe the people who say they are sorry for the mothers. EVERY ADULT IN THAT SECT STOOD BY AND LET THE HORRIBLE THINGS HAPPEN TO THESE YOUNG GIRLS! THEY CONDONED IT! I feel if you stand by and do nothing you are just as guilty as the perpetrators of these acts. They should all be ashamed of themselves and are not fit to raise a dog let alone a precious child! "

MsRepublicanWit wrote on Apr 29, 2008 3:06 PM:

" I think the childern are where they should be. Their community is a cult! And if there is even any doubt that they could be being abused in their homes, wouldn't you want tehm somewhere safe? Or at least until it's proven safe in their "cult".....Their hidden society....At least in foster care, they have less of a chance of being brain-washed. "

Bob wrote on Apr 29, 2008 2:52 PM:

" 31 out of 58 girls age 13-17 already have atleast one child or are pregnant. Enough said... "

REX wrote on Apr 29, 2008 11:10 AM:

" Another shining example of why I refuse to embrace Christianity or anyone who tells me they do. "

Socks wrote on Apr 29, 2008 8:05 AM:

" This is just sad. If your neighbor let a older man come over and get your underage daughter pregnant, while the mother and father of teen were aware of it going on .... that is not right. If the parents can't protect the children, I hardly think the ranch is the best place for them. If there are families within the group who do protect the kids and don't abuse them, those families should be reunited. I doubt the whole group is abused, however, there are many of those kids who do need protection. "

Grumpy Old Republican wrote on Apr 29, 2008 8:04 AM:

" What does THIS news snippet tell everyone?

---Texas child welfare officials say almost 60 percent of the underage girls taken in a raid on a polygamist compound in west Texas either have children or are pregnant.

Of the 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 who are in state custody, 31 either have given birth or are expecting, said Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar.

"It shows you a pretty distinct pattern, that it was pretty pervasive," Azar said Monday after releasing the latest figures.---

That's from this morning's national news wire. Absolutely sickening. I hope they trhow the book at every single one of those twisted zealots. "

mom-of-teens wrote on Apr 29, 2008 7:49 AM:

" I agree with you on that somewhat. They explained it on dateline, and I understand their point of view. They basically said if they walked into a home and removed a child from an abusive situation, they wouldn't just take one child, they would take them all out of the home; that is their protocol. This is a very close nit community and if they suspect one child is being abused; they can't leave all the other children there. "

Curious wrote on Apr 28, 2008 11:48 PM:

" You seem to feel I condone the actions of this group - I don't. All I am saying is that I don't believe all of these women (and some men) are evil and wicked...I believe the majority of them love their children as much as I love mine or you love yours. I just don't believe tearing hundreds (?) of infants and toddlers away from their mothers is justified. I can't imagine how my daughter, now grown up and moved away, would've reacted when she was 3-4 years old if a SWAT team etc...had burst into our home and taken us away to a strange place and then separated me from her & a few days later put her on a bus full of children to be taken ??? and then placed with strangers. I can't imagine the terror and the permanent psychological damage that these young children will have to deal with for the rest of their lives. I'm not saying something shouldn't have been done to protect the children, but I don't believe what was done was right. "

mom-of-teens wrote on Apr 28, 2008 10:29 PM:

" Curious, this is a cult. These people are being brain washed, and children are being told they will burn in hell if they don't enter into marriage. If my mother told me those things, I wouldn't think she was fit to raise me. Does that mean every man in the compound is in a spiritual marriage with a 13 year old? Does that mean that every mother is letting her child be raped? Not necessarily; but this is a common practice; and the SICK thing IS that they don't think anything is wrong with it; THAT'S why it mirrors a CULT! That's why its dangerous. Have you watched any interviews about this at all? Have you watched the interview given by the young woman whose 13 year old sister was raped so seriously that she almost bled to death? Were you watching when she talked about her mother's reaction to the rape? The mother told her "he's her husband, he can do what he wants." Does this woman sound like she is fit to be a good parent; protector of her child? If a mother drinks alot and passes out and lets her child wander onto railroad tracks and the child is hit by a train; we want to fry her for child abuse; as we probably should. Why is this situation any different. Not protecting child from abuse is just as bad as actually doing the abusing; or didn't you know that? This is not about religious tolerance; this is about protecting children from abusive situations that may very well be widely accepted by this particular religion. "

Curious wrote on Apr 28, 2008 8:13 PM:

" To Bono - So is it your feeling that every adult who practices this religion, male or female, should be arrested and put in jail? Did you figure out what to do with the women who are pregnant or might become pregnant? Are you saying that every female who gave, or gives birth, on this compound is unfit to be a mother - that they love their children any less that you or I? I would venture a guess that the vast majority of the women in this sect were born and raised to believe what they were doing was right...they were kept closed off from society and these beliefs were drummed into them from day one. Does that make them bad, evil human beings? I believe the young men in the sect were born and raised to believe what they were doing is right. Does that make them bad, evil human beings? No, it doesn't mean what they did is/was right, but what if you don't know any better? I say go after the older men, the "leaders" who preach this and enforce their will against the women and children. There is no easy answer here in regard to the women...what is supposed to happen to them? Many have never lived in the outside world and would have no idea how to support themselves and their children - will we open big "deprogramming camps" and shuffle them through and in the meantime place all these poor innocent children with strangers in a society that is foreign to them? I sure don't have the answers...I hope the state of Texas does. "

To Marcy from Not Thinking wrote on Apr 28, 2008 2:45 PM:

" What are your credentials?

AND, the comment from you and 'My Opinion' saying that statistically foster homes result in much worse trauma is a damaging and hurtful comment. Show us our statistics. Think of all the wonderful people who open up their hearts and homes to kids who either don't have homes or their parents can effectively parent. I don't think you have helped the programs that work so hard to find foster homes for needy children.

Remember, when you point a finger there are three pointing back! "

mom-of-teens wrote on Apr 28, 2008 2:29 PM:

" To Curious, they were following the policies and procedures based on Texas state law. To Duh all, the young man that was interviewed was age 19. He was asked to leave the compound due to drinking, listening to music, and "hanging around with girls." My thought is he was too "young" to be messing with the teenage girls, since he wasn't in his 40s or 50s; that's just my thought on it. So you are probably right; the teenage boys were probably not involved. "

My Opinion wrote on Apr 28, 2008 2:14 PM:

" To Curious: Your questions and concerns are well thought out and well stated and I for one mirror your thoughts. What is happening is not right or just since no real investigation and no real proof is in evidence. It is an overreaction and clearly not thought out or considered. "

Bono wrote on Apr 28, 2008 2:14 PM:

" To Curious - what do you mean there is no "proof" children were abused - there are pregnant MINORS who are married to old, nasty men! Isn't that child rape? And what makes you think these pedophiles don't go after the younger kids? They all need to be taken away and kept away. If the mothers are incapable of keeping their children safe (obviously) then they don't deserve them either.

Did you all happen to see this on Dateline last night? It's totally about religion to these people. "

Curious wrote on Apr 28, 2008 12:05 PM:

" I'm reading all these comments and the recurring theme is it was appropriate to remove ALL of the children...no matter what age. I agree that young girls reaching puberty should not be married off, physically or spiritually, to older men and expected to reproduce - it's sick. My question is what about the little children...the babies, the youngsters...was it right to remove them because someday they will reach that age? Are they/were they endangered or abused now? What about the adult women in the compound who are pregnant? Are we going to lock them up until they deliver and take away their newborns? Should they all be sterilized before being allowed to leave? What happens if they get pregnant next week...do we put electronic monitors on them and track the pregnancy? I'm all for protecting innocent children, but I think the State of Texas is going to be in for an expensive awakening...no one has been charged, they now believe the mysterious "Sarah" that called is a 33 yo nutcase who has never been a part of this group. There is no proof anyone was abused... "

Duh all wrote on Apr 28, 2008 11:09 AM:

" There were less than 20 males between ages 14-20. They were either really busy or not inolved. "

REX wrote on Apr 28, 2008 7:00 AM:

" Mom-of-teens, Mike R I disagree. Religion is what these people were hiding behind. So was the Catholic church. "

Mike R wrote on Apr 27, 2008 11:17 PM:

" Mom of teens. Agreed. Religeous extremists are a scary thing - in any faith, especially when you don't have to twist the words much to make them say what you want to hear. That is why I am always a little leary when the really hard pounding bible thumpers come knocking at my door. "

mom-of-teens wrote on Apr 27, 2008 10:19 PM:

" Mike R, I agree with you. Particularly the catholic religion. I grew up catholic and I remember being told things too. Interesting enough, the abuse of children by priests has only come to be talked about in the last several years. Makes a person wonder how long it actually went on before then. I disagree with extreme behavior by any faith. Whether muslim, christian, jewish, or any other. I don't think that all members of the sect were involved in this behavior, but I think there are plenty who probably were. The dateline story gave some interesting information. The concept of innocent until proven guilty is good in theory, but when it comes to children and abuse; I still stand by that the authorities acted appropriately given the facts that they had. There are preditors in every shape and form; and religion doesn't exempt one from that possibility of guilt. A healthy balance in life can apply to almost anything; religion, work, play, family, economics, food, excercise, money, sex, and everything else.... extreme is never a good thing, in my opinion; with maybe the exception of child protection and advocacy. In that case, the law has to apply to be enforced to the full extent it can be. "

Mike R wrote on Apr 27, 2008 8:38 PM:

" Mom of teens: I agree with you 100 percent. Religion or not, it is abuse and a crime. No doubt about that one. You are the one though who stated that they use religion and fear of hell to scare the young girls into submission. I was just pointing out that Christianity does the same thing. Do we not "scare" or intimidate people, using the threat of going to hell, to control thier behavior? We do. We do it all the time. The entire religion is based on the fact "do as you are instructed or you will go to hell". That part is the same as this cult was doing to intimidate those children into submission. I never once said that it was right, or that they could excuse it based on religion. Just pointing out some similarities - that's all. "

Bess wrote on Apr 27, 2008 8:15 PM:

" I am wondering where everyone is getting all the info. I have been watching the news and reading newspapers and there is a lot on this site that I never heard of. It seems that anymore when ever something comes up people are found guilty before there is any trial. I thought it was innocent until proven guilty. I feel so sorry for those kids and their parents. "

Mom wrote on Apr 27, 2008 7:19 PM:

" Mom-of-teens; you are absolutely correct. Religion has no part in this. It's criminal acts and child abuse. Freedom of religion can only go so far...it shouldn't make anyone exempt from laws. "

mom-of-teens wrote on Apr 27, 2008 6:23 PM:

" Mike and REX, with all due respect, religion is secondary to this issue. The issue here is child abuse; plain and simple. If a nonreligious person was doing this to young girls, I would feel the same way. It is not the religious practices that are the problem here; it is the abuse of power and the use of religion as a weapon to create fear and submission that is the problem. The young man that was interviewed STATED that was the case. The young woman who talked about her sister being raped, talked about her mother and how her mother's attitude was "he's her husband, he can do what he wants to her". THAT is the problem. This extreme behavior is JUST as destructive as any terrorist who "hates us" for our beliefs. That's all I'm saying. Abuse in any culture or religion, should NOT be tolerated! "

mom wrote on Apr 27, 2008 6:06 PM:

" sorry, that's not the law in Texas. The legal consent age is 17, but if there are no more than 3 years between the male/female there is no crime done. Look it up. Did you know that in N.D. it is only a class A misdemeanor for someone between the ages of 18-21 to engage in sexual act with a minor between the ages of 15-17? It doesn't turn into a felony unless the perpetrator is 22 or older or if the child is under 15. It is only referred to as corruption of a minor. It's not sexual assault unless the child is under 15. Check out the N.D. Century Code at http://www.legis.nd.gov/cencode/t121c20.pdf and look under the sexual assault heading. "

To Mom wrote on Apr 27, 2008 4:57 PM:

" A fifteen year who has children is a victim and that is rape because they are not 18 and cannot give consent! I hope these men go to prison for a very long time. "

REX wrote on Apr 27, 2008 4:26 PM:

" Mom of teens, Imagine hoe you would feel if a non-Christian advocated locking you up for you practices or lack of such. That is precisely what you did. I merely pointed it out to you. You know, we're engaged in a blood struggle with extremists right now who believe we should all be dead because we are different from them. "

Mike R wrote on Apr 27, 2008 4:01 PM:

" Mom of teens: I am not an advocate of these men by any means. What I think should happen to them is definitely not nice (understatement of the year). But I don't think you should be dragging religion into this argument and talking about how the girls were forced to believe a certain will or they will go to hell. The christian bible tries quite desperately to influence our thought process and our moral value of right and wrong and threatens us will hell if we don't comply with that particular viewpoint. When you look at it, the religeous aspect is not that far removed what most of the population believe - just twisted a little to fit thier own belief system. That isn't much unlike the different sects of christianity - all tweaked just a little to conform to our own beliefs. Religion can be a very dangerous thing, and you don't have to twist the bible far to get there. "

mom-of-teens wrote on Apr 27, 2008 2:25 PM:

" supposed to be "I also tend not to trust men who flee to utah to avoid DNA testing", sorry. "

mom-of-teens wrote on Apr 27, 2008 12:24 PM:

" Fair enough, but the chances are greater that they are. A young woman was also interviewed who said that her 13 year old sister was raped so brutally that she almost died from hemmorraging. I tend to believe those who left the compound and who are now speaking out. I also tend not to trust a me who flee to Utah to avoid DNA testing. Highly suspect.... "

Mom wrote on Apr 27, 2008 11:55 AM:

" I wasn't saying that the individual who called wasn't a victim of statutory rape, just that you can't automatically think that a 15 who is pregnant or has children is a victim. "

mom-of-teens wrote on Apr 27, 2008 11:33 AM:

" To mom, the initial investigation was because of a phone call by a "Sarah" 13 or 16 or however old, claiming to have been beaten and raped by her 50 year old husband. They don't know who Sarah is or if she exists, but 50 years old is definitely 3 years older than 13 or 16. Also, they are testing DNA to determine who these children belong to, so they are still investigating; unfortunately some of the MEN of the compound have been less than corporative and some have even fled to Utah; so paternity testing could not be done; they must not have ANYTHING to hide, huh? To Rex, you are the one who made the comment about me not being tolerate of other religions; why would you make a comment like that if you didn't want a fight; of course I would defend a comment like that. Also, they did a phone interview with a 19 year old male named Franklin who left the compound and he stated that his sisters are married; and these girls feel obligated because they are told if they don't consent they will be condemned to hell. Just doesn't sound like free will or choice to me. "

Mom wrote on Apr 27, 2008 10:50 AM:

" to Duh Rex; a pregnant 15 year old does not necessarily indicate statuatory rape. We don't know that the father is someone over than 18, and by Texas law as long as there isn't more than 3 years between the couple no crime has been committed. "

REX wrote on Apr 27, 2008 8:53 AM:

" To Duh REX, Duh how old was the father? You'll have to frogive me if I'm not right up to snuff on the news and I miss a few things. Don't have, don't want a TV. Spend much time traveling. "

DUH REX wrote on Apr 27, 2008 6:30 AM:

" a 15 year old that has children. Statatory rape. Equals child abuse! "

REX wrote on Apr 26, 2008 10:42 PM:

" mom-of-teens, Of course I cannot tolerate child or sexual abuse but has anything been proven yet or are we still investing? Don't be so quick to start a fight. "

site of abuse wrote on Apr 26, 2008 10:33 PM:

" Marcy: you would want these children to be kept at the site of the abuse. Walking by buildings they wree raped in, or worse sleeping in the same bed they were raped? Doesn't sound theraputic at all. "

mom-of-teens wrote on Apr 26, 2008 9:37 PM:

" To Rex, and I have to wonder why you would tolerate such blatant child abuse. Religion is one thing; a cult that practices abuse on children is something ENTIRELY different. For the record, I am VERY tolerate of other religions, I unlike some people, am just not tolerate of child abuse! "

Bess wrote on Apr 26, 2008 7:11 PM:

" Hey check this out.

This list is in response to questions from several readers. BTW, When I was a teen, you could be married at age sixteen (around 1976), ... some things do change.

http://www.coolnurse.com/marriage_laws.htm

Marriage Laws in the USA - by Age

In the United States, all but two states require a couple be age 18 in order to marry without parental consent. Nebraska sets the age at 19 and Mississippi at 21 at the time of this writing (May 2003). A few states will waive this requirement if there is a pregnancy involved, but the couple may still have to have court approval. "

R wrote on Apr 26, 2008 1:46 PM:

" I am 13 years old and I know that if this had been done to me by any of the men I know i would be horrified. But I do know that if that was done that my only comfort would be knowing I had people who loved me- My mom, My siblings, and my friends. The kids who are being taken away now have none of this. Their moms are back at the compound. Their friends are shipped to different foster homes as are some siblings. Imagine a 5 year old being told they wern't gonna see their mom for awhile or ever again? I know even at this age I would be horrified if my mom went away! "

REX wrote on Apr 26, 2008 1:17 PM:

" seven gone, Your post to B G-A-R-R reminds me of a quote by Alexander Stevens during the American Civil War that concerned Confederate President Jefferson Davis. Stevens wondered where Davis was when the key issues of state came up and decided that he was "High upon the fridgid heights of infalible egotism". "

REX wrote on Apr 26, 2008 1:02 PM:

" Mom of Teens, I'm sure you mean well but in this country we are supposed to practice tolerence. I have to wonder what people of other faiths would think of your post here. Jehovah's Whitnesses do not observe Christian holidays. Seventh Day Adventists do not observe Sunday as a sabath. Jews do not believe in Jesus Christ, Agnostics, Athiests, Budists, etc.,etc.,etc. Shall you lock all those up as well? Take me first. "

seven gone wrote on Apr 26, 2008 12:11 PM:

" bill garr: yet another example of the way you can take a bad situation and illogically extrapolate it to apply to all religion and people who practice it, painting everybody with the same brush without reason or justification.

if you have a problem with religion, fine. just stop throwing your rocks at everybody else.

and who would you be to know just what they contribute to society otherwise? they probably pay more for the upkeep of society, like the illegal aliens of columns previous than you ever do or will. but pious and mighty on your hill of knowledge, you're so quick to sit in judgment of everybody else.

i wish everybody could be as perfect as you. "

mom-of-teens wrote on Apr 26, 2008 9:58 AM:

" Marcy, another thing you don't seem to understand is when authorities first showed up to DO a "peaceful" initial investigation, they were told that no one named "Sarah" lived there. Turned out there were three children there named Sarah. What tipped them off in the first place was a call from "Sarah" claiming to have been raped and beaten by her 50+ year old husband. They were given the run around, and the children were "coached" what to say. People in the compund were not cooperating with them. This happens ALL the time to children who are abused. Being coached what to say; given the run around. I stand by that the authorities acted appropriately. "

mom-of-teens wrote on Apr 26, 2008 9:52 AM:

" The people on that compound are brain washed!! Remain on the compound?? I don't think so. Have you actually seen interviews some of these women have given? They look and talk like stepford wives! How is that a good environment for children? I think the authorities did the right thing. If these children were in the general population and this was going on, they would have acted the same. Why do we get so up in arms about gay marriage, but allow crap like this? It's child abuse, emotional, physical, and sexual; plain and simple. This is an extreme religious cult! They don't celebrate Christmas; they don't celebrate Easter; they don't practice they way "normal" Christians practice. They are nothing more than a cult. They should be in jail! "

BILL G-A-R-R wrote on Apr 26, 2008 9:06 AM:

" Another example of religiosity run amok.

''Would this extreme action have been taken if their beliefs weren't outside the mainstream?'' It doesn't matter Marcy!

Why do we fund and allow freak shows like these, Christianity included, to remain tax free? This compound again is nothing more than organized welfare fraud. What do these people contribute to society? What are there jobs? Pull these families apart as quick as possible. Sex with a thirteen yr. old? I just vomited a little in my mouth. Religion will surely be the death of us all!

"

Captain Crunch wrote on Apr 26, 2008 8:39 AM:

" Does anyone see the similarity here between this use of young women and the way the Islam treats theirs'? "

Marcy wrote on Apr 26, 2008 8:13 AM:

" "Not Thinking" has suggested that I'm not thinking the situation through. I believe the authorities and apparently many Americans who would demand that their own children's best interests be sheltered while seeking the truth haven't really thought this through by exploring other options in getting the same end result - a thorough investigation with a thoughtful solution that both protects the kids and minimizes trauma.

Yes, it appears that there is sexual abuse with underage girls. Yes, in my opinion, this is an unhealthy environment that will surely continue if no intervention occurs. Yes, by my moral standards, the mothers were not protecting nor advocating for their children from alleged sexual abuse.

However, my suggestion is not that we stand idly by and do nothing; but rather look at other possibilities when intervening and ultimately acclimating these kids into society under the same laws and protections afforded all Americans. For all the alleged faults of the polygamist colony, the mothers appear to be loving and nurturing - the threat coming from their belief in child marriage and child bearing. If that threat is removed (the men), wouldn't it be better if the kids and moms were left in the compound under the watchful eye of the authorities until the investigation is complete? I firmly believe there is more trauma for these kids being suddenly uprooted from their families and farmed off miles away - with a directive from the State to "try and keep siblings together". Was a thoughtful plan to keep the best interests of the kids in mind (protecting them from abuse while maintaining a sense of security in familiar faces and surroundings) or was it just another quick "fix"? As "My Opinion" wrote, statistically a foster home often results in much worse trauma.

We must remember that we are a nation founded on a constitution that demands we be proven guilty - was that done before this rash action? "

Bess wrote on Apr 26, 2008 7:33 AM:

" Yes I to agree they should be taken away from the parents. they then can be placed in foster homes where they are then molested and mistreated. As for the way they dress I dont think there is a law that says women have to wear jeans that are full of holes. The children can now watch all the beating being done by girls on TV and learn how to live the normal American way. Also in some states is legal for girls 16 to marry with parents permission and if pregnant younger. Maybe some of them went out of state of Texas to marry legally. I have not heard any proof on anything except they were running a very successful community. I bet you all know of people who have children from a few men and those kids don't know the father "

Amanda wrote on Apr 25, 2008 11:16 PM:

" I'm more than happy these kids were taken away from that cult. The girls are married off as soon as they hit puberty. Some girls start that cycle at the age of 11, that is NOT right. They are married to men twice and sometimes three times their own age. This cult is full of nasty child molesters that need to be locked up like the animals they are. They are not "men of god" doing things like that to little girls! "

Jessie wrote on Apr 25, 2008 7:33 PM:

" to rrr; the law in Texas is that it's legal as long as they are 17 or older and there is not more than 3 years difference in age between the partners. I had read that a majority of the children were females, I wonder why that would be? Or is there something worse going on even than what we know of? Selective abortion or something? Did anyone else read that too? "

la wrote on Apr 25, 2008 5:13 PM:

" It is heartbreaking for these children and mothers, I agree with that statement.

BUT, the law IS the law.
These people should not be exempt from abiding by the law because of their beliefs. Even if they do live in their own compound, they are still citizens of Texas and the United States and need to take responsibility for their actions, regardless. These innocent children should not be subject to alienation and abuse as they have been thus far. It is the mothers duty to protect them from the evil foes of the men in the compound, which those women failed to do...therefore, the state needed to step in and help these innocent victims.

Its too bad that something wasn't done much, much sooner!!

"

Mike R wrote on Apr 25, 2008 4:16 PM:

" Just so no one can accuse me of commenting on every single topic, I have to point out the original commenter "mike" was not me. He was Mike, not Mike R. Just thought I should throw that out there since I have been accused of posting on ever topic. Darn, I guess I did just post on this one. Oh well, still MANY others that I haven't posted on today. "

rrrr wrote on Apr 25, 2008 3:03 PM:

" It is illegal for men over 18 to have sex with girls under 18 years of age. These are children being force to have sex and to be able to breed more of their kind. This is wrong and it should be stopped. How would you feel if your daughter(s) were force to breed with older men? Someone needs to protect these children from the abuse they have received their whole life. "

Lady wrote on Apr 25, 2008 2:51 PM:

" It is ok if these women want and need to feel they should live under these abusive conditions but please dont breed this is no place for children. "

Reddy wrote on Apr 25, 2008 2:50 PM:

" Having multiple spouses at one time is illegal in the USA. There should be arrests for each of these men. "

Bono wrote on Apr 25, 2008 1:21 PM:

" NDr is right - they are just a bunch of creepy, old, nasty pedophiles. Not only is it right that the children were removed, but hopefully they will investigate and arrest these "men" and put them behind bars where they belong. Right beside Warren Jeff's. He was convicted of child rape -wasn't he? Their fearless leader? "

REX wrote on Apr 25, 2008 12:17 PM:

" We could have solved this whole thing if we had only sent Janet Reno down there to begin with. She could have murdered them all just like she did at the Branch Dividian Compound in Waco, Texas. "

hhhhhhmmmmm wrote on Apr 25, 2008 11:33 AM:

" the saddest thing about all this is that the gov knew this was going on..and that is was ilegal..and that the girls were being used as property/baby factories..yet nothing was done..and now they have gone in on a massive scale..and the kids are victims again..scared and alone..could this not have been done in a more caring way... "

To Mama Mia wrote on Apr 25, 2008 9:56 AM:

" Hey, did you notice the boots they wear? As Paris Hilton would say 'Hot!' Okay, not! "

My Opinion wrote on Apr 25, 2008 9:50 AM:

" I am glad this letter was written. I too question the validity of Texas removing children from their mothers when allegations have not been properly investigated, According to news sources, DHS in Texas hadn't visited the compound prior to removing the children. This is absolutely wrong. Just because an allegation is made does not mean there is any truth to it. Far too often Social Workers remove children before a proper investigation and determination. I am not saying there may not be issues - I am saying that it is unreasonable to remove children based on allegations alone - there must be an investigation and proof. All too often there are improper investigations and little or no truth to allegations. Yet, Social Workers keep doing this. It is also extremely harmful to the children to be removed - it is traumatizing to them, causing emotional harm and, by the Federal Governments own research children are far more likely to suffer abuse and neglect in a foster home than in their own homes. This had been handled very badly and should never have happened. "

LJK wrote on Apr 25, 2008 9:49 AM:

" Agree with Mary and A Mom. These "mothers" are not taking appropriate care of their children and many of the kids don't even know who their mothers are. It's not that the religious beliefs are outside the mainstream, the activities carried out are not legal. I also have some questions- since the older men are marrying several younger women, who does that leave the the younger men to marry? The numbers don't work out. And who voted one that ridiculous flippy-wave thing to be the one hairdo they all sport? "

MamaMia wrote on Apr 25, 2008 9:38 AM:

" And one more thing about these women. The '60s called. They want their hairdos back. 1860s that is. "

Not Thinking wrote on Apr 25, 2008 9:35 AM:

" Marcy, you are not thinking this through. You think it is okay to leave these kids with mothers or women who did not try to protect them, watched and let the abuse go on. Yes, they are scared and brainwashed so it is not a good reason to leave kids in this situation. Marcy, you need to respond, not react and really think about how out react affects other people! "

RRMC wrote on Apr 25, 2008 9:33 AM:

" Wow, I can't believe more people don't see anything wrong with this. There has been no proof, no arrests, no nothing. The only thing they had was a phone call with what appears to be false information. I don't belive in the same things these people do, nor do I aggree with them. And I'm all for locking up pedaphiles. But these people are being seperated from there familys because of there beliefs and the way they chose to live there lives. These people are Americans like them or not and this is not how Americans should be treated. This is more like Hitler and the Jews. "

Jessie wrote on Apr 25, 2008 9:26 AM:

" I feel bad for the kids being separated from Moms too, but I feel even worse for the conditions they were taken from. I think it is in the best interests of the children to have them removed for now. My only hope is that the authorities are able to handle the matter and not be hindered by possible civil rights violations. Did they really have the authority to conduct the searches in the first place? Without having proof of the phone call placed by someone at the compound they may have a hard time justifying the search. In which case, all evidence gained later such as the DNA would not be legal to use in court. That would be sad. "

Grumpy Old Republican wrote on Apr 25, 2008 9:13 AM:

" These kids NEED to be FAR away from that cult and all the brainwashing that occurs there. They deserve a chance to grow up normal instead of being subject to the brainwashing and abuse that has been going on. Especially the you girls...they're not even viewed as humans. A girl in that cult is essentially a life support system for a uterus, and once puberty hits, she's nothing more than a sex slave and a baby incubator. That's SICK and these children deserve better. "

WHATEVER wrote on Apr 25, 2008 9:02 AM:

" Chalk another one up for religious insanity. "

michele wrote on Apr 25, 2008 8:45 AM:

" I agree with Mike R. I saw some of the TV interviews. Brainwashed for sure. They couldn't even answer simply questions, a yes or a no. The women are afraid of the men, but they don't know any better. Everyone created equal, apparently not in their little world. "

NDr wrote on Apr 25, 2008 8:28 AM:

" The men in this sect are nothing but a bunch of pedophiles. I feel bad for the women and the kids, but if they choose to stay with their men, live by the perverted believes they've fallen for, then it's society's job to tackle the problem head on. That's what's now finally happening. The only problem here is that law enforcement waited this long. "

Mary wrote on Apr 25, 2008 8:28 AM:

" When parents aren't acting in the best interest of their children, the children should be removed. Being left with the Stepford wives will not help these children, in the long run. Hopefully, the mothers will wise up/be deprogrammed, so they can be reunited with their children. "

A mom wrote on Apr 25, 2008 8:22 AM:

" I feel for these children to have to lived in the aweful conditions they have had to. These kids do not know know who their real birth mother is so there is no connections to their mom. These are just women breeding and raising kids to be able to breed more kids for this cult. "

Mike wrote on Apr 25, 2008 7:24 AM:

" I am sorry Marcy, I feel bad for these kids too! However, the people in this ranch are so messed up that the only hope these kids have to be normal is to be taken away. If you saw any of the interviews on TV these mothers from this ranch are brainwashed. It appears they no longer have the ability to make rational decisions. The men should all be locked up. I am pleased the authorities broke this ranch up and I hope it stays that way! "

Post Your Own Comment

All online comments are limited to 350 words total.
Comments are reviewed for taste, tone and language before posting.
Some comments may be used in the Tribune's print edition.
We value and respect your privacy, but The Bismarck Tribune might
disclose certain information to governmental entities if served with subpoena.