Bismarck, North Dakota News

" David, I happen to know both Mike and Bob. They are both very nice guys and concerned citizens. They are not against any project that requires taxpayer funds. They ARE concerned about projects that will require INCREASES in taxes. Although I am on the opposite side of them on the pool project, I do like the fact that they are being community "watchdogs" and are expressing concerns to the local jurisdictions. Makes good public policy and for good debates. I hope they continue to do what they do. "

" I wish more public officials would tell folks like Bob Harms and Mike Motschenbacher to stop grandstanding. They don't have to show up and make remarks or present little petitions. We know what their views are on almost anything that will cost tax money - they are against anything that costs tax money and does not directly benefit them. "

" im just happy for all the new stuff coming expecially hooters "

" Agree to disagree or not the actions of the board are unprofessional and, quite frankly, unacceptable. If debate is important to government, as Sagsveen claims, he should support opposing viewpoints and not demean them in a public forum. The board is to openly listen to both sides, not degrade anothers view even if they do not agree. This, in effect, quiets others who may like to speak due to a fear of being ridiculed. The board clearly showed they only wanted to hear one point of view and were going to degrade anyone who opposed them. It is government at its worst. I have said it before and will say it again... This is a good project, but a terrible process. Just wait til they railroad a project through that is not what you want... we are giving them full right to do it based on the way they handled this project. "

" I guess that we can all agree to disagree. Time to move on.

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" To taxpayer: I thought boards and commissions were elected to provide services to their constituants in accordance with state statute. My mistake, thanks for correcting my misunderstanding. "

" To Queen:

Don't lump me in with your group of "taxpayers" who complain about a "luxury" item like an aquatic center. I am glad to pay taxes toward it. I am not complaining. I voted for the sales tax issue that included the center. I happen to view it as an acceptable use of my tax dollars just like roads and water. You know, come to think of it, at one time, indoor plumbing was a luxury, so was electric lighting, as was running water in every home. The civic center was greeted with skepticism and opposition when it was built but has paid off handsomely for the city. The examples may be extreme, but the point is not. Progress comes at a cost. Cities who trust their elected officials to make informed decisions for the long range benefit of all progress. Those who can't see past the end of their nose get mired in the past. The issue here is not taxes, it is a small group of people did not get their way and don't trust the very folk they elected. The solution is not to vote on the aquatic center. If you don't like the decision, run for office next November. In the meantime, don't include me in your broadbrush characterization of taxpayers who view the aquatice center as a luxury. I think it's a good idea. "

" Hey Queen, it is only your opinion the aquatic center is not needed! I personally haven't used the schools here in Bismarck but I pay for them and pay willingly. Anyway it really doesn't matter cause the aquatic center is going to be built!

Thank you commissioners Zimmerman, Gilbertson and Quist for a yes vote on the improvement district tonight. "

" I, and many others, who have attended the Park Board meetings regularly, are in full support of the Park Board and the job they have done (as they were elected to do). If you do not like what they are doing, either show up at the meetings and voice your concerns; or when the time comes, elect someone else. Better yet, run for the board yourself.
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" To Getitright-How about a five year comparison then. In 2002 my share of the park board taxes was 204.88. In 2007 it was 265.76. That is a thirty per cent increase over a period of five years. Using an inflation calculator available on the web, the rate of inflation for this time period was seventeen per cent. This is not a special part of town, however if you would look at your taxes with an unbiased eye you would see the same thing.

The same line is used by the park board in their minutes on the web, "The mill rate has not increased." However the assessed value of property has gone up a little more than 27 per cent in the same time period. How did the property taxes go up higher than the assessed value in the last five years then without an increase in the mill levy.

I do not know which time period that you want to use, but the results will be the same. The park board taxes have increased more than the rate of inflation and the other property taxes in this city.

What is the park board going to do when the assessed values drop in this city? The spending by this board is out of control. It is on the backs of the hard working people of this town, some want it some do not. The only equitable solution is increased fees for the users. Have these fees gone up greater than inflation like our taxes? "

" That wasn't meant as a compliment. Ironic, considering the titile of this article isn't it? I'll admit it when I'm insulting someone. Others on this blog wouldn't think of such a thing. "

" To Moveon - We don't NEED an aquatic center. We DO need roads to drive on and water to live in today's world. Taxpayers do not complain when they know their money is going toward something worthwhile. But when you want to spend a large amount of money on a luxury item, such as this, you're comparing apples to oranges. Nice try though. You're comparing spending 10 million on an aquatic center (which we can live without) to 10 thousand on road repairs (necessary), 3 thousand on water mains(necessary), and 5 hundred thousand on the airport (maybe not necessary, but small money compared to 10 million!). "

" For Edward: Voter approval of Park Board actions happens every November when the citizens have a chance to elect one or more comissioners. That is the time to express your righteous indignation and become a candidate. Convince a majority of those voting (not of the citizens) you would be the best person and you can join the Board and be a part of the decisions. In the meantime, the voters that showed up selected the current Board and by defenition their decisions. Moveon raises a good point. Where is your objection when the City Commission spends $ 15 million of your tax dollars in a single meeting? In order to be consistent, Edward, why didn't you raise a hue and cry for a vote of the citizens ? Maybe we should just grind all elected boards to a halt and insist on a vote of the people for any expenditure above $ 100,000 ? School board, park board, city commission, county commission- every one of them. We elect them all to make decisions. Let's get out of their way and let them do so. So what if the dollars we pay in taxes have increased. I bet you would not sell your house for what it was valued at 30 years ago, either. "

" Thanks for the compliment, really! I wish I had sat on the board. I for one would not have apologized to Harm for his half-truths and condescending attitude towards the board. Nor would I have bent over backward for public comment, only to receive last minute pot shots from individuals who have not taken the time to look into every aspect of the project! Your only argument is you don’t have a say in what is happening. I would recommend next time you are more active in the election process. Secondly, to all those who think the park board has broken the law why don’t you get an attorney (Harms is probably available) and do something. My guess is if there was any laws broken he would be all over it! "

" This is the board that was afraid to perform a fee structure study for themsleves that was only $40k, now they want to vote a years worth of spending without a vote? Old guy - you sound like the old guy on the board that sits with Zimmerman and Neu in the bar or in a meeting before the meeting scheming up ways to get your agenda through. That's sad. "

" Dumbfounded - you must live in a special part of town as the Park Districts mill levy has not increased in quite a few years - another important point here is that the mill levy is the primary and only source of funding for the Park District - I think it is interesting that you need to go back 20 years(1988) when neither this board nor this director was even part of the Park District - the Park District incurs the same inflation that every business and citizen incurs or are they somehow exempt from that? I don't think so - it is easy to say cut the mill levy when there is a windfall of sales tax revenue to use like the City Commission or you have multiple sources of state and federal grants like the school district - so in your scenario the Park District should cut the mill levy(the only funding source they have) and then in essence start cutting programs - build no new facilities, maybe then we should close some golf courses that they need to be annually supplemented at 25 - 40% - I don't mind different opinions but if you are going to quote statistics and percentages then let's look at the whole picture and not just a small piece of it that caters to trying to make a negative point. "

" To Old Guy: You convinced me, elcted boards should be commended for working around the onerous demand of voter approval. State stautes only need to say "Any elected board or council can doe anything its members want. If the citizens don't like it, vote them out of office." "

" I have in front of me a copy of a December 2007 Bismarck City Commision Meeting.
I see they approved $10,836.41 for a road project, $3,300,236.50 for Water Main project and $522,255.24 for a Airport project. Those are the larger ones for that month. What went wrong here, where was Harms on this?? Over $15,000,000 approved that month and no outrage? What about the specials (a tax))that these people are going to have pay for that road project. Where was the public vote on each of these projects??? The Simile Middle school is in the middle of a multi-million dollar renovation- where is harms when we need him on this, where was the pubic vote on that...... I could go on and on and on...... The point is these commissioners and board members were elected by the people of Bismarck to do a job and they are doing it. The Park Board has done a great job on this, if you disagree take it up next election, but let them do the job they were hired to do by the majority. "

" to Getitright- All you have to do is look at your tax statements for the last thirt years or so. The park taxes have gone up close to 500% during this time period. This is more than any other of the taxing entities. All you have to do is read the information. Park Board mill levy does not drop hardly at all and yet taxable values goes up nine per cent a year. If this is not a tax increase, I do not know what is. All of the other entities drop their mill levies to correspond to the new valuations, the park board does not.

If you want more information, go to the letter "Just say not to park board" that was in the paper a short period of time back, the figures are there. Compare your tax statements and see what you come up with.

For example in about 1987 and 1988 taxable valuations were dropping, yet the park board taxes went up about nine per cent each year.

If a person took the figures and went out a few years, with the current ratesof increases, the park taxes will one day be the highest tax on your property tax statement. "

" Wow Edward I’m impressed with your principles! You are for the pool and yet against the process that is legal and has been followed to a tee. WE live in a Republic where we elect responsible citizens to represent us, including the park board commissioners, even Quist. I suggest if you really support the pool and if you really mean it, you support it. To delay the project even a year means an escalation in material and construction costs approaching 20% per year. These additional costs would have to be paid unnecessarily by the citizens of Bismarck. So I guess a no vote today and a yes vote next year is being responsible? Of course, the answer is NO it is not! The real answer is the People for Regressive Government just want the pool to go away for good! Motschenbacher, Harms and Quist are also speaking out both ends when they say they support the pool! It is just a ploy! "

" Just a couple of quick notes to perhaps get folks to take a deep breath and step back a moment. (I'll write a more detailed response to the paper). First, yes, I am a lawyer, but no one is paying me for this. I'm interested in sound fiscal policy for local government, including the park board. Second, I'm not sure what "half truths" we are accused of offering the Park Board. I shared my concerns in advance and asked them to let us know if we were in error. None were asserted bu Park Board members or staff. Finally, the point of property taxes is this: valuations (upon which your property tax is calculated) have gone up approximately 9% last year (after adjusting for new construction and new property).....so, if local government doesn't reduce the mill levy (the rate of tax), an automatic property tax increase results. The Park Board did not lower its mill rate, and as a result increased its share of everyone's property taxes by approximately 9%. I've lived in ND my whole life and love Bismarck. It is a great place to live. We can continue to make it better and should insist on sound management of public resoursces in the process. "

" To get it right: Sorry I am so stupid to believe that if the park district or a joint powers agreement were to build this facility it would not take a 60% voter apoproval for the bonds. Using a stalking horse to get the bonds at a higher interest rate than the park district could get and transferring the higher cost to the park district makes the statute not apply. Really looking out for the people's interests park board. If this is such a desired project why not have a vote of the people and pay a lower interest rate on the bonds? By the way I am not against the facility, I would even vote for it. I don't like the end run of the citizen's right to vote! "

" to half truths. I challenge the statement you made about presenting half truths. When our group met to help prepare Bob's speech for the last meeting, we used numbers and information provided from an open records request FROM THE PARK BOARD. So, if we were spreading misinformation, it was because the Park Board gave us incorrect numbers. Maybe criticize them. "

" Edward - if you want to quote State Statute make sure you get one that applies to this - the one you quoted does not. "

"
I would like to commend the current Park Board. I may not have agreed on everything they done over the years. However, President Zimmerman has asked and pleaded for the public to voice their concerns for over a year now, having been to the meetings for the last six months, no one with concerns showed up, but plenty of supporters were and have, Mr. Harms has been to the last two, but his arguments were weak at best, and the Board addressed his concerns quite well. - The Park Board was elected by the public to do this job, they have done it well this past year and after visiting with people on the street, the 4-1 Vote last meeting was quite representative of the public on this project, let's build this and moveon..... "

" It appears that the Peacock Alley Boys Club are all on this blog this morning - Johnny B - so 24 represent the wishes of 60,000 - interesting - I believe an elected board would be a much more accurate representation of that - also again to set the record straight a sales tax was voted on 2 years ago - not a pool - there were many projects that were to be paid for by that sales tax revenue and in speaking with many citizens that in fact voted against the sales tax they did so specifically because of a fire station and votech center being added to list not a pool - and dumbfounded - can you explain to me and everyone else how the "park board" taxes have increased faster than everyone elses - by my account and my annual tax bill the Park District mill levy has not changed for quite some time nor is it being proposed to change now - property values go up - this is a good thing. I would challenge all the bloggers here to show where this massive tax increase is that they are all claiming - Finally, as far as conduct goes Quist is the poster child of poor conduct especially towards his fellow commissioners and towards taxpayers - especially if it is something he is not interested in or disagrees with - that has been evident at the past few board meetings - that conduct is seems to be just fine with this group - again - appears to me to be a double standard here. Harms is an attorney and paid lobbyist and is yet to disclose whose payroll he is on for this - when his groups "concerns" were presented again the facts are always skewed - Mr. Sagsveen was right on with his comments and his position and this board is doing the right thing for the best interest of the "CITY" of Bismarck, not a small group of anti-progress control freaks that are not getting their way on this one. "

" To Old Guy: If you are out there, 21-03-07 is the State statute that requires 60% voter approval. But, I guess 60% voter approval is required only if you actually allow the citizens to vote. "

" If people don't think we need the new aquatic center then just look around the rest of the state. Bismarck is a joke when the local swim team has to host an event here. We live in the best city in the state let's have a facility that shows it and allows our children and adults a place to use and train in that will make us all proud. "

" Since when does a grown man speaking half truths need an apology from anyone! Harm’s was totally out of line during that meeting and as usual presenting half truths! The only insulting part of the meeting was when he stood up and presented false information to fit his agenda. Everyone who has read and researched the information that has been presented to the board knew it was false and they are the one’s who should be insulted! Mr. Harms should be the one apologizing not only to the board, but the public for his out and out lies! "

" The creepy crawly things are coming out from under their rocks! It is very unfortunate that there are a vocal few in this community that have no vision for the future! BSC needs an athletic facility on campus, the citizens of Bismarck need a swimming facility that can be used year round, not just the 55 day a year average that the outdoor pools are open. The city is growing and needs facilities like this to attract new families to our community. What’s great about the Park Department in Bismarck is the top quality and diverse facilities it has to offer. "

" Great idea to submit a project to the voters. Not ! What do we need elected officials for? If you don't like their decisions, the ballot box next November is the way to express your dissatisfaction. If the project has been thoroughly debated, the costs examined and public hearings held with our elected officials deciding to go forward with the project, the process has worked. Just because a small group of folk don't like a project, does not give them the right to impose their will on the rest of us. That is called the tyranny of the minority. Do we now vote on every project large or small ? Is 110,000 too big ? 120,000 ? Members of my extended family have paid taxes in Bismarck since before 1900. I'm sure it was difficult at times, particularly during the Depression, but 5 generations have invested in the future of Bismarck. The indoor aquatic project is a good for the future of Bismarck. I will probably never use it, but I will gladly pay my share of the taxes to support it. My kids live here and will do so as well. "

" I'm sorry Mr. Sagsveen but I watched the broadcast of the meeting as well and your comments towards Mr. Harms were in fact stated rudely, insulting, and quite frankly embarassing. Having watched several meetings before, the public hardly heard a peep from you, but knowing that this was your time to grandstand, you let Harms and the rest of Bismarck hear the insults that have been brewing inside since Harms rallied the citizens against the Peoples, Parks, and Places initiative in 2006.

I'm not sure what you call a detailed operating budget for the aquatic center but a one page projection on a project the taxpayers will be paying for 50 years is hardly detailed, yet when Mr. Harms suggests a more detailed budget be prepared before rushing to a park board vote he gets accused of grandstanding. You say you just can't please some people? Get real Mr. Sagsveen. Mr Harms' comments and Mr. Quist's concerns are valid as a project of this scale moves forward.

By the way, according to my math Harms' small vocal minority group of 24 exceed the number of park board members. Maybe the park board is not representing the majority here? This project should have been voted on. "

" I find this letter insulting. Insulting becuase you must really feel people are stupid by trying to cover up your blunder. I can't beleive that you would undress a citizen that has researched questions for you. This is the arrogance we can do without on the board. Sagsveen, Zimmerman and Neu must all believe the people are ignorant because they keep pushing forward even though the got smashed in the vote two years ago. "

" A small vocal minority? How quickly our government forgets the results of a vote. Just as a reminder to everyone in government, this issue WAS voted on, and a MAJORITY of the voters of Bismarck firmly expressed their belief that we should not be spending money on this. So when the park board does an end run around the vote, don't expect encouragement from the public. "

" i hate when he hides behind the "mils levy are the same" argument. with todays rising property valuations that way of thinking locks us into 7-8% tax increases every year. where is this detailed operating budget? It's not online. "

" Can you explain the park board taxes increasing faster than any other taxing entity in this city?

Granted, there are needs, however they do not need to be done all at once. Maybe I can send you my tax bill this year, I can no longer afford to pay it. "

" I agree. I too am not against an indoor pool. I am against moving ahead with a project that I am not sure our park district can afford. I watched a clip on tv tonight where the pool manager was explaining why they are removing and not replacing the slide at Hillside. It begs the question: How can we afford to build a new aquatics center but not afford to maintain the recreation facilities we have? Also, if the new center is to be supported in part by continued growth in Bismarck, through expansion and increasing housing valuations, what happens if the economy tanks as predicted? The answer - increased mills. "

" Grandstand- "to conduct oneself or perform showily to impress onlookers." Was this a compliment? Not a chance! Anyone who watched the park board on TV that night saw how angry Sagsveen was. Harms was as calm as can be and actually quite boring to listen to- to be honest. For Sagsveen to say he was grandstanding was completely uncalled for. This letter should have been a letter of apology instead. I did not hear Harms attack the park board at all, just bring up his concerns. Just for the record, it is possible to be FOR a project but want it done under certain criteria. We all would like to have our own pool in our back yard, but we have to consider the costs firsts. That's just common sense. Also, anyone has a right to bring their concerns before the board anytime they want to. If this is the way the park board conducts itself when people speak up against anything, how can they expect people to come forward? Finally, Sagsveen, you have no authority to put this on the ballot? You sound like a first grader who needs his mommy's help! Give me a break! If you wanted it on the ballot, you would find a way! "

" John,

Nice letter. I don't think your intent or Mike's intent were to insult anyone. But, I tend to agree with Harms. Put it on the ballot. Let the people decide. If this was a $100,000 project, go for it. But $10,000,000? Get it on the ballot. I wish you and the park board the best of luck.

Tom "