Bismarck Tribune - Bismarck News - Park Board looks over plans for pool

Park Board looks over plans for pool

Feb 29, 2008 - 04:05:54 CST

By GORDON WEIXEL
Bismarck Tribune

A decision on whether an $8 million indoor aquatic/wellness center will be built on the Bismarck State College campus will likely be made by the Bismarck Parks and Recreation Board at its March 20 meeting.

At a special meeting Thursday, the park board held discussion and took further steps indicating the facility will become a reality, with construction starting immediately after Memorial Day, with the doors to open just prior to school opening in 2009.

District director Steve Neu provided the board with preliminary expense and revenue figures. It's estimated the facility will cost $1,150,000 to operate annually and can generate the same amount in revenues. Neu said that the district will likely subsidize 10 percent of the operation from the general fund, which is similar or less than what it subsidizes its other facilities, such as the VFW Sports Center and golf courses.

Work is still ongoing regarding the city's road reservation, which must be vacated before the facility can move forward. A joint powers agreement involving the park district, BSC and the board of higher education has been completed and is being reviewed, Neu said.

The BSC student body and board of governors has approved a $4 per credit fee, which will provide $300,000 annually for operating capital and access for BSC students.

The facility will be built by the Streamline Foundation, led by Dennis Kemmesat. It will be leased/rented back to the park district at a cost of about $53,000 a month for the next 20 years. Kemmesat said that Streamline will be conducting a capital campaign to raise $1 million to provide things such as bleachers, lockers and other amenities to finish the facility.

The facility will feature a 50 meter pool with moveable bulkheads and a smaller recreation pool for swimming lessons and lap swimming. The moveable bulkheads will allow for a number of configurations of the larger pool for practice and competition. There will also be a wellness center, which Neu estimated as 1.5 times the size of a regulation basketball court. There will be seating near the pools for 1,000 spectators which can be rolled back for open floor space.

The plans also provide space for the addition of a gymnasium in the future.

The plans also incorporate a biomass system that will burn woodchips and coal to provide heating, air conditioning and dehumidification. Kevin Miller, representing Kadrmas, Lee and Jackson, Inc, which is designing system, said the $2.2 million system will have a five-year payback.

The biomass system will save a significant amount in annual operations versus the use of natural gas, Miller said. The park district itself will be able to provide fuel from the maintenance of its parks, and there is also an abundance of wood available through the Bismarck sanitary landfill. If there would be a shortage of wood, one of the lowest cost fuels, the system can switch to low-cost lignite coal. The biomass burner, used in conjunction of an absorption chiller for air conditioning and reducing humidity, also reduces electrical use.

Among the actions taken by the board was setting an April 1, 5:15 p.m. hearing date for the creation of an improvement district to provide for the center's infrastructure. It also accepted the preliminary engineering report by Swenson and Hagen, and authorized staff to pursue the biomass system.

(Reach reporter Gordon Weixel at 250-8255 or gordon.weixel@bismarcktribune.com.)

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Comments

getitright wrote on Mar 17, 2008 3:36 PM:

" Fiscal Restraint: I auggest you take a look at the record boards because those names were wiped off any state high school or club records many years ago - you will have an individual accomplished athlete in any sport but successful winning programs do not exist in terrible, inadequate facilities, that all said you are again failing to recognize the fact that this facility will accomodate recreational swimmers, competitve swimmers, lessons, school classes, diving as well as offer a much needed wellness center for the BSC campus that will be open for public use etc etc - none of which can be accomodated at the YMCA - your logic of using the pool across the river would suggest then that we have 1 football field for Bismarck/Mandan, 1 basketball court for Bismarck/Mandan, maybe 1 soccer field - we all know that is ludicrous - By the way, People Parks and Places was a vote on a sales tax - not a specific project - which would have been used for mutiple projects including a fire station and vo-tech center which were the projects people were against. And your right - Dickinson is a different situation - Bismarck is a city that is 5 times the size of Dickinson and yet we do not have adequate facilities for aquatic activities. Again we elect boards including the Park Board, and City Commission to represent the people and make decisions that represent the people's wishes. If you want to be a part of this process then maybe you should run for one of the boards - this project has been stalled, and talked about for 30 years - it is time for Bismarck to get this done. "

citizen for fiscal restraint wrote on Mar 13, 2008 6:54 PM:

" Here come the well organized comments from the special interest - bashing any comment that is not in line with their viewpoint. It's almost like this pool is an entitlement.

The special interest group referred to is not BSC it is the competitive swimmers. Let BSC pay for half of the cost and then let's consider this project but we know that won't happen or would hold up this project - right?

I swam back in the time that You're all nuts is commenting on and their were more competitive swimmers on the Bismarck team than their is now and many of those swimmers still hold records, so you're arguments don't hold water so to speak.

What are you so afraid of a pubic vote? The answer is because it will get voted down and you want to ram it through before elections this summer or possible public vote - it's on the fast track by Pand R and Streamline. I would hope that if Park and Rec was going to build a $15 million dollar project, something of this size that it wouldn't just be railroaded through. Why was a vote ok for the Peoples parks and places project, and not this, when this project is almost as costly?

And Dickinson has a beautiful parks facility, but don't have a YMCA or private fitness facilities like we have here so they filled the void. Nor do they have a competitive pool across the river. This is a different situation.

Let the public vote and do things the right way - then there is nothing to get upset about - let the people speak and find the answer.

I'm not against a smaller indoor pool (1 pool, not 4) at a reasonable cost - possibly patnering with BPS and voted on like all the other major projects, but this is the opposite of that process. "

getitright wrote on Mar 12, 2008 4:41 PM:

" to your all nuts - just an update - Dickinson's facility has over 40% of the city's population as members - people drive to Dickinson from a 100 mile radius to use the facility - does not appear to be doing to bad - I guess that is why they already added on! I am not sure what world you were living when you were a swimmer but I can tell you this - Bismarck has the worst pool in the state of any major city - it is the worst for air quality, seating, athlete acoomodations - by the way - Susie Helvig and Nicole Fiest were from Mandan - and I am not sure but how many state high school championships has Bismarck won now ? I think it is one! Mandan has approximately 12 over the last 18 years between boys and girls - facilities do make a difference! I guess I am just wondering what we have elected officials for based on some of the comments here that every project be brought to a public vote - I suggest that if you don't like the job your elected officials are doing vote someone else in. I commend this Park Board for bringing this finally to forefront for projects. For Fiscal Restraint - I don't believe that BSC is a very small interest group and they will be footing over 1/3 of the annual operation costs of the facility "

Are You Kidding? wrote on Mar 12, 2008 1:55 PM:

" I really liked Your All Nuts’ comments concerning competitive swimming. He is living in the past! Maybe he should come to a high school triple dual and see how crowded it is and how miserable it is not only for the adult spectators but also for the kids swimming!

Four high school swimmers this year had to make trips to the emergency room due to air and water quality issues. Last year during the Bismarck Invitational meet three swimmers couldn't even continue due to the same problems. One athlete from Williston passed out, not from exertion but from air borne chemicals. Perhaps "Your all Nuts" would like to attend the USA Golden Seals invitational in February and spend an hour or two on deck trying to find seating with 275 kids and 400 plus spectators!

My guess is Your All Nuts never qualified for Zone or Sectional meets to see what is required of a facility to host an event with 500 to 800 plus swimmers. Something only UND can do in this state. And yes, people will come if it is built. Due to practice times there are many families who have chosen to drop swimming for their sons and daughters.

Since Your All Nuts is an ex-swimmer maybe he would like to join Masters swimming or water polo. Oh, sorry, you can’t because there is no pool time and the Y isn’t interested in cutting another program to make room for Masters swimming or water polo. I could continue, but no reason, since the need for a pool could hit the negative group in the face and they still couldn’t see it!
"

Old Guy wrote on Mar 12, 2008 8:26 AM:

" Well, I see all the negitive groups that are commenting now in this are turning to name calling! I wonder why? Perhaps they don't have the facts to support their misguided claims. I would challenge anyone who has commented to give links to support their claims. Arguments saying the new facility is not needed is living in some sort of fantasy world. Have those people ever tried to swim at the YMCA in the evenings? You can't. I'm 68 and still work during the day, the evening is my only option. I'm offended when people tell me I have to drive to Mandan if I want to exercise by swimming. Why so much opposition to a great multi-use facility for BSC, the competivite swimmers, families, and even us, the over-the-hill crowd? The parks and recreational facilities is one of the main reasons Bismarck is a great place to live! Te other reason is most people think of others and not just themselves! Perhaps from what I'm reading that is changing to "Me first and everyone else second if they don't agree! "

RRR wrote on Mar 10, 2008 5:00 PM:

" To citizen for fiscal restraint ---- just because this indoor pool is not up your alley doesn't mean it isn't needed. "

citizen for fiscal restraint wrote on Mar 8, 2008 9:55 AM:

" A very small special interest group is driving this and want a huge overbuilt facility that is being shoved down the throat of the taxpayers, since they've found a way to subvert the taxpayers opinion and vote. This end around is what has most folks upset. The commissioners are not doing their job but rather riding in the special interest's pocket and if it continues down this path should all be voted out of office.

Read 'You're all nuts' comment - this is a very rational person speaking from experience that gets it.

And the 'if you're against this you aren't for progress' argument is really tiring and offensive to community growth minded taxpayers that don't want thier vote sidestepped and $12 million plus spent on a huge indoor aquatic complex. I believe in a lot of what the P and R has done in the past, but this is way out of line.

Maybe streamline or someone else can line up every project on the Peoples Parks and Places initiative as a pass through like they are doing with the pool and then Park and Rec can do all those projects even though the public said NO in their vote. It boggles my mind that this can be done in this manner. This is not the way business should be conducted by a government agency that is supposed to be representing us. "

Your all Nuts!!!! wrote on Mar 7, 2008 9:48 PM:

" FYI I swam during the era when Bismarck/Mandan where acually competitive with Minot and Fargo-Grand Forks Tisha Yantzer, NIcole Fiest, Suzie Helvig, kara schmitz, How good has Bismarck Swimming been in the past 10 yrs! Oh maybe its because they have no facility? Good Facility makes good swimmers NOT................. "

Your all Nuts!!!! wrote on Mar 7, 2008 9:25 PM:

" To all I was a competive swimmer- for the Golden Seals and High School- Been to a meet or two at the YMCA- The only thing it doesnt accomidate is the parents - which they have to sit outside the window (not all bad as not as hot and less humid)- Your swim meets generate a fair amount from North Dakota- BUT THIS IS NOT A CASE OF IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME!! Ask Mandan- they have the huge facility ask them if they saw a huge increase with their meets? NO THEY DIDNT- they have even had to stoop to holding birthday parties for revenue - Then ask Dickinson on how their Huge Indoor facility is doing- NOT GREAT! YMCA accomidates the swimming events just fine- You will not get any more higher skilled swimmers in ND because Bismarck opened a big facility- 61/2 hr dr and they have the same level of competion in their own back yard! I say spend the money on improving what you got- that does not even generate that much cash, Hillside- Wavepool- Increase the size of the YMCA if you need too (but many parents appreciate not having to sit in the noise and heat! ) Just because I do not agree does not mean I know nothing about the sport- BACK TO REALITY BISMARCK- FOR YOU IF YOU BUILD IT WILL BE A WASTE OF MONEY! Our colleges dont even have swim teams WHY? "

GETITRIGHT wrote on Mar 7, 2008 7:34 PM:

" Fiscal Restraint - you are correct with financing costs it would be close to $12M - which any project in this community will have financing - the financing being used with this project is the same as any other public project and virtually at the same interest rate but with a 25% reduction in typical other government baloney like construction management and architecual fees - appears to be a great deal for our community and BSC to me and as far as subsidy there is not a facility our town or any other for that matter that is not subsidized - the average is generally 25% - so 10% is pretty darn good in my books-
I would suggest that all the anti-progress, lower tax folks that are busy writing nasty blogs regarding this project direct your attention to the city commission's war chest and surplus they have amassed from increased property valuations and sales tax revenue and the millions they are proposing to spend on great things for our community like silent crossing zones along the railroad tracks. Bring on the Aquatic Center - something everyone in the community can be proud of! "

weneedthis wrote on Mar 7, 2008 7:29 PM:

" To those of you in support of the Aquatic/Wellness facility I say THANK YOU for myself and my daughter( who is a competitive swimmer both HS and USA). This is long overdue and I hope it is built.

For those of you against this you seem to miss the point of why this is needed. I won't put down other projects that I'm sure others would want whether they are needed or not. There is no point in that. All this seems to come down to the almighty dollar. Everything increases over time including taxes. We just get over it.

For NDGUY...In otherwords KISS and m "

DVD maker wrote on Mar 7, 2008 7:27 PM:

" ND guy... About your concern that the pool would be closed or have little time for the general public. If you attended the meeting, you would have heard that the only time the pool would be closed would be during a swim meet. The main pool is actually 3 pools in one, Plus there is the 2nd warmer pool. Both recreational swimmers and the swim teams/clubs would be able to use the facility at the same time. That is what makes the plan a go for me. I can swim laps myself while my my kids work out with the wild frenchman swim team coach. While all that is going on, swim lessons for beginer swimmers and diving practice is taking place all under one roof. "

the sane one wrote on Mar 7, 2008 6:00 PM:

" Some of you all need a reality check - "yourallnuts" you have obviously never been to a swim event at the YMCA because it does not accomidate them. And no we can't have our kids swimming in the river, esp. when we have winter most of the year. Listen people - this pool is needed, for our kids and for our community. It is a admirable step for our park board to make changes and progression in our community recreation. It will be an accomidating facility. "

citizen for fiscal restraint wrote on Mar 7, 2008 6:00 PM:

" To get it right - just do the math, and You shouldn't accuse until you get the facts!

$53,000 x 12 months x 20 years = over $12 million in capital cost plus additional annual operating costs and shortfalls. The cost of this will far exceed $12 million when you look at the total.

I hear the disc golfers want a new indoor facility too and there are at least 200 players locally. They can only play for 100 days each year. They would like a $10 million dollar complex because they think it should be built. Those of you that don't like it - we'll make sure there is not a public vote on the project but rather a private lease back agreement and then 20 years of debt for the taxpayer - and don't complain either.

Vote and you'll find the answer to this project will still be no like two years ago.
"

Be Careful wrote on Mar 7, 2008 5:31 PM:

" Be careful what you wish for pool supporters. If this project goes through, then be prepared for the Park District's priority #2-#10 projects (Hillside pool, Pebble Creek, Cottonwood, etc) to follow shortly thereafter. Based on the early expense/revenue estimates the Park District is already proposing to subsidize 10% annually along with a $53,000/month lease, a number that will rise because construction projects almost always exceed budget due to design changes, contract change orders, etc., and Streamline's not in this to lose money. So tack on 10% subsidies for the next priority projects and ultimately that will fall on you and me taxpayer. I think my taxes are better spent on improving infrastructure than they are for pools. "

Facts wrote on Mar 7, 2008 5:01 PM:

" NDGUTY--- times are changing. We as a city need to be able to change too. There use to be a grocey store in every neighborhood but as times changes it is not possible to do this type of business any more. With a community indoor pool the major part of funds would come from taxes and the rest of the revenue would come from charging the people to swim. But as the Elks pool only charges $2 per person and the are only open 50 days a year - they are in the hole before they start. "

ndguy wrote on Mar 7, 2008 2:58 PM:

" Thanks getitright. I do appreciate the input. As I stated before I am not opposed to the "swimming pool" I am opposed to the placement and the "complex" concept. I'm old fashioned, I know. I like simple. To me it just seems that the old neighborhood pool had a lot going for it. I understand that team sports and competitions generate revenue, but does everything need to generate revenue? Does everything need structure and competition? Why not have some fun and relaxation for the family? A wise old boss of mine once told me "the secret to happiness and success is KISS". It's served me well for many years. If you're reading this, thanks Pat (my wise old boss). "

JustMe wrote on Mar 7, 2008 2:37 PM:

" Haha, before attacking me for numbers, do the math. $53,000 a month, for 20 years. $12.72 million in present value, $8 million is the cost of the pool, but it is not what they are paying for it, as they are funding it through an outside source. But how nice of that group to make that much money off my taxes and still be considerate enough to raise capital funds for the bleachers and other misc. things, since $8 million won't even cover the cost design essentials. "

another hike wrote on Mar 7, 2008 2:13 PM:

" Just another hike for the property owner go over and use Mandan`s pool they come over here for everything. "

getitright wrote on Mar 7, 2008 1:23 PM:

" to ndguy - unforunatley a little information is dangerous in this community and especially in these blogs as people take that little information and spin whatever way they please and not based on facts I might add - the pool that is proposed is actually 4 pools that could not only accomodate competitve swimming but also lessons, diving and other activities all at once - not to say there will be space at all times of the day for all activities - I think the idea is to keep this facility busy right? I would suggest that all that are worried about not getting their time in at the new facility take a look at the design before jumping to unsubstantiated conclusions -
to Justme - I am not sure where you are pulling your figures out of regarding this project going from $8M to $12M - I have not seen this anywhere and I missed the secret windfall that is going to Steamline as well - confirm your facts before spouting off. "

Truth wrote on Mar 7, 2008 12:18 PM:

" Voters: before you vote for a swimming pool, there may be ulterior motives to make money. In other towns which built pools, I am aware of, get swim meets, group excersize, group swimming lessons and don't cater to individuals. I lap swim and can't not get the lap time. It is closed to lap swimmers. They don't want lap swimmers, dad and kids for recreation swim and just sitting around the pool watching your kids swim. They want the groups because they make money and woo to the individuals because they just get just get the entrance fee. "

ndguy wrote on Mar 7, 2008 12:02 PM:

" Wait a minute! This started as a discussion concerning the need for a swim complex to be built at BSC. Apparently there must be more to it. Now we are seeing swim meets with competitors from out of state coming in to Bismarck several times per year, we see discussion of a health center attached to the complex. We also see discussion of major use by competitive swimming for practice and use by the school district as an educational facility. Now, given these points, just how much free time will be left for recreational swimming? Again, I'm not opposed to a new swimming pool (indoor please) my question is, how much use will the general use swimmer get from such a facility? If we are talking about a facility to benefit all the people, I think we can do much better than a crystal palace at BSC. "

Not a swimmer wrote on Mar 7, 2008 9:40 AM:

" For all the people that are putting down the sport of swimming. Please don’t say anything unless you have walked the talk. I can’t input on something that I know little to nothing about. For me to say something about a sport without being involved would be unfair to those that are involved in the sport. If the swimmers need a bigger facility we all should look at what they are asking for and make should they get the best facility we can offer them . We need to show the swimmers that they are important and that the community is behind them. "

Your all Nuts!!!! wrote on Mar 7, 2008 8:22 AM:

" dvd maker- I understand your fantasy - however reality check- Minnesota is known for their athletics so we North Dakotans flawk to their events. If you were to organize a swimming event, you may get a great result from North Dakota but it will not have as big of a turn out as a Minnesota event. So hold your swimming events at the YMCA - Which house then just fine! We got to Minnesota for events, because their is shopping attached and other things for a vacation, 3 in one worth us going- Why would Minnesota show up- event and see the buffulo---They will stay in their own state because the competition is either better or just as much a challange as driving 61/2 hours to Bismarck...You would generate no more revenue for the city than what you have been generating at the YMCA "

Rickie wrote on Mar 7, 2008 8:14 AM:

" dvd maker you said it. Thanks! I hope others will read your comments and look at the future. "

outside the box wrote on Mar 7, 2008 7:54 AM:

" One last thing- If you think a pool is going to keep college age kids in town you are way out of touch with reality. I went to a college that had a great swimming pool and a national ranking swim team... I have no idea where the pool was on campus. This is a small campus with 20 some buildings and 2500 students... If your kids are choosing a college based on the pool at the college.... or staying in Bismarck because we have an indoor pool now... It is time to revisit what is important when choosing a college. "

outside the box wrote on Mar 7, 2008 7:45 AM:

" I have no doubt that the pool will have an economic impact on the community. But if swimming had near the impact that McQuades does, we would see some impact when Mandan has a swim meet. I just do not want to see uninformed people be misled with trumped up economic impact statements such as comparing this building to McQuades softball tournament. I never said I was against this building, I am against the location.... But mostly I am against the attitude that many people in this area have... I am so tired of hearing "If you don't like it, then move"... Guess what... It is my community, too. I also have a right to be heard, I pay my taxes, work my jobs, and my ideas may be different from yours. That does not make me wrong and I have just as much of a right to live here as the next person. "

dvd maker wrote on Mar 6, 2008 11:32 PM:

" to out of the box.. There have been numerous public forums about building an indoor aquatic center. I have been to most of them of them. There has always been an opposing group at the meetings. As as a result from their input, the plans have been chagned several times to make the proposal better for everyone.

As far as comparison to McQuades I can only say that 3 weeks ago I took several club swimmers to Rochester Mn. There were over 1,000 swimmers at the 3 day meet. The town was packet. The pool was in use from 6am to 10 pm. You needed your hotel reservations 4-5 months in advance.
The younger swimmers travel with their parents and the grandparents come too. While it may not bring in as much as McQuades, this type of meet would be held several times a year, not just once.

This whole situation reminds me of the the "Bowl", I was one of those against it. I couldn't have been more wrong. That facility is in constant use 8 months out ot the year. Good thing about an aquatic center is that it would be used 12 months out the year.

I respect and understand your views, I just disagree.

This has been talked about since the late 70's early 80's, Hopefully, for the benfit of the comunity, we can finaly get it done. "

outside the box wrote on Mar 6, 2008 8:38 PM:

" To all who want people to go along with this plan or move out: You are the problem with this community. There is no understanding for any other point of view. People have to either agree with you or they are wrong... guess what... some people have different priorities in life... just because they are not the same as yours does not make them wrong. And do not compare this facility to a McQuades softball tournament.... there is no way they are going to build a facility that can handle an event that even compares to the economic impact that McQuades has provided. "

concerned wrote on Mar 6, 2008 7:11 PM:

" To the comment from Prove it,
The Park and Rec is not supposed to be in the business of offering fitness center use at a lower rate than all the private competitors do - it's part of their charter not to compete. Go ask the owners of one of the fitness centers that they've sacrificed to build and is their livelyhood, how excited that owner would be when their tax money is used to put them out of business. And if you can't afford a membership at a private center then go to the Y and get a scholarship - that's what they do!

Make it simple and vote on this huge project - the answer will be the same as two years ago - NO!

If there isn't a public vote then hold the commissioners accountable for this decision. I can't believe that this huge expenditure will not be a problem for P and R to pay - they must be awash in funds that need to be expended each year.

And if you're looking at this as economic development? I doubt there will be much impact from swim meets over and above what we currently see - that's not justification. I want the best for our community too, but at a reasonable price and voted on to represent what the community really wants!

"

JustMe wrote on Mar 6, 2008 4:54 PM:

" I agree Edward, just cause 20 or so people agree to it online here, the last vote we had spoke clearly for the city of Bismarck. Go to the swim meet? No thanks, I already have plans, this large event bringing thousands into our community did not send out the memo, didn't even see a sign at the Y today. Must be the non-money maker at the Civic Center going on this weekend that your swim meet is overshadowing, as that's where I will be. And please reread the article and stop refering to it as a $8 million dollar project, they are proposing a $12 million project. "

Facts wrote on Mar 6, 2008 4:33 PM:

" I agree when someone stated that Bismarck businesses would benefit by a quality large indoor pool that could hold large events. They’re so correct. If you provide the facility the people will come and that means more money into our community. "

Edward wrote on Mar 6, 2008 4:07 PM:

" Why don't the citizens get to vote on this capital project like statute requires? Needs a 60% approval pass. "

Hello? wrote on Mar 6, 2008 4:02 PM:

" Justme -
You talk about the "want list." A public indoor acquatic facility is on the want list. Has been for 20 years. I think it's time.
What does $12 million get you? Drive around Bismarck - hmmmmm. Golf courses, softball fields, 39 parks, 50 miles of trail, soccer complexes, outdoor pools, arts and culture, community recreation center, adult and youth programs. I say it's an investment, not spending.
How much is the city spending on the complex near the airport? I think it's $8 million, as an investment in the community, right?
When the aquatic center gets built, please don't go there. I'm sure you'd hate such a good thing for the people of Bismarck, the businesses of Bismarck and the visitors of Bismarck. "

Pat wrote on Mar 6, 2008 3:52 PM:

" Just me, do you see a need for a large indoor swimming pool for the Bismarck community? Looks like there is a swim meet tonight at the Y in Bismarck. I might have to go just to check it out for myself. Do you want to join me there? "

JustMe wrote on Mar 6, 2008 2:44 PM:

" To Prove it: go to the website http://www.bisparks.org, click on the annual report, notice the budget of over $12 million for this next fiscal year, notice the $12 million in spending, factor inflation for next year, and repeat. They spend it like they have to, with what to show? Large ugly statues obscuring the view of the river and an animal outdoor bathroom, I mean, dog park. Why not control the spending and plan out through the future how to afford what is on the want list and not circumventing a vote that was already defeating this issue?

By the way, only speaking in present value estimates, has anyone else noticed that your good samaritan group Streamline, is going to receive over $12.7 million for this proposed $8 million dollar project? Do we want to pay this much in extra expenses or find another way of affording it? How is this possibly responsible actions by the Parks and Wreck? "

Swim meet tonight wrote on Mar 6, 2008 1:41 PM:

" I sure hope the Bismarck Parks and Rec sees the need for an indoor aquatic center for the city. There is a swim meet tonight the YMCA. I would like to invite the people of our city to come up and see these kids in action and the need for a larger facility. "

Move up or out wrote on Mar 6, 2008 1:29 PM:

" To all the people that do not like to see Bismarck grow, move to Mandan. "

Bismarck wrote on Mar 6, 2008 1:28 PM:

" What they are trying to tell ndguy is that if you have all of this wisdom and great ideas that you need to hold a position where it can do some good. "

ndguy wrote on Mar 6, 2008 1:00 PM:

" OK Bismarck: can I count you as my campaign manager and fund raiser. You see, I did the city commission bit before in another town. We called it City Council where i come from, but it's all the same. It costs bucks and a lot of time, which I don't happen to have at this point in my life. But I'm sure if you want to do the fund raising and leg work to "put your money where your mouth is", I'll be glad to serve. Just give me the big okey dokey and I'll let you know how to contact me. I'm getting real tired of hearing that phrase "if you don't like it run for office yourself". In a community like Bismarck it's a lot easier to say than do. "

Love This City wrote on Mar 6, 2008 12:40 PM:

" Becc - take a look at the park district website. The aquatic complex is not landlocked in that location. They already have planned space for future use.

Hat - as it's been stated. It's in north Bismarck because BSC is partnering and supporting the facility for students. What a brave and strategic step for them!

For all the crabby folks - if you don't like it here, move away. The rest of us want to live in a cool community that supports facilities and family programs for all. "

$ $ $ wrote on Mar 6, 2008 11:50 AM:

" This is to all business owners: An indoor aquatic center could and would bring in some BIG swimming events which means more people in our city supporting our lodging, eating and shopping businesses. $$ Look at the money the McQuade softball tournaments brings into our communities each year. To the employees of these businesses: it means jobs and money to you also. It would be a WIN WIN situation for us all not just the swimmers. $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ "

Indoor pool wrote on Mar 6, 2008 11:50 AM:

" The Bismarck Parks and Rec have discussed building another outdoor swimming pool. Poor choice! We can only swim outside an average of 50 days per year. The Bismarck Elks pool cost 2 million to build – with charging $2 per person, having limited sessions/hours and only being in operation 50 days a year – it goes to show that other avenues needed to be viewed. "

Chatter wrote on Mar 6, 2008 11:49 AM:

" Hat… North Bismarck is growing and south Bismarck has stabilized in growth. There are limited areas that Bismarck can grow in the south so the wise choice would be North Bismarck an indoor aquatic center. "

From the south wrote on Mar 6, 2008 11:48 AM:

" The YMCA is located in central Bismarck not north Bismarck. "

Bismarck wrote on Mar 6, 2008 11:48 AM:

" Hey NDGUY…..You need to get out of your house and go around town. Scope out some of the existing centers, visit with the people around town, enjoy a nice walk on one of the paved trails and then put your name on the ballot of the next Bismarck City Commissioner. "

Prove It wrote on Mar 6, 2008 11:43 AM:

" I'd like "Just Me" to tell us where he got his facts. I'd like to see the report or reference stating we pay more for our parks and rec facilities than other cities in the US. If you can't I suggest in the future you stick to the facts.
Concerning the irresponsible operation of the Parks and Rec; They provide recreation, in most part, for a reasonable cost to all users. Faced with the huge growth in the Bismarck area, the Parks District have their challenges and have responded well.

The Aquatic and Fitness center will add more value to our community than most park projects in many years. Year round recreation for those who can’t afford those private fitness centers, a place for our college students to socialize on campus, and perhaps a place where our kids can learn to drown proof themselves and maybe save a life. That sounds like value to me!
"

bsc wrote on Mar 6, 2008 10:55 AM:

" There is one huge reason to build it at BSC - they need the students to pay for most of the operational costs otherwise the city doesn't have enough money to operate it. There will most likely be a fee above and beyond the student fees in order to be a member. Perhaps the city and the school district should team up with the Parks and Rec and do this the right way. A pool would be a great addition to the city but most people are well aware that this lease back is a scam and that the voters should be able to vote on this 8Million dollar pool that will more than likely be around 12 million with everything included. "

JustMe wrote on Mar 6, 2008 9:57 AM:

" The reason that it was voted down last time was because the Parks and Wreck already have an enormous budget, and are irrisponsible when it comes to managing it as it is. I would have no problem with them starting new projects that return value to the city, but if they can't find a way to do it responsibly within a reasonable amount of money, it would be stupid to support it. We pay more for our parks than most cities in the nation, we should be getting something in return besides dog parks. "

New To Bismarck wrote on Mar 6, 2008 9:49 AM:

" It is my understanding that Dickinson ND argued for at least five years about there center and less than two years later are already adding on. A community success!
Has anyone thought about how we keep the young people here? My kids, who are at the age to decide if they want to stay in Bismarck or leave have been watching the discussion on the pool. There question is why does Bismarck promote businesses to bring people in but drag their feet when it comes to something that would actually keep people here? As one of my kids stated, "Bismarck is making one more mark by not building an aquatic center (yes that is what they call it) Why should I stay, I want something to do after I am done working and I can only swim in the river a couple of months?"
"

Hat wrote on Mar 6, 2008 9:40 AM:

" to jre who posted " I would like to know why everything is being built on the North side of Bismarck. People do live in South Bismarck too"

That's a very good question and citizens should be asking that to question to their city commission and the park board. "

jre wrote on Mar 6, 2008 8:47 AM:

" I would like to know why everything is being built on the North side of Bismarck. People do live in South Bismarck too. If North Bismarck has the YMCA why couldn't an indoor pool be built on the South. My kids are too young to drive and seems like I am burning up gas driving them to all their events. I am all for neighborhood pools when things get so big I tend not to want to use them because of the crowds and difficulty parking. "

just wondering. wrote on Mar 6, 2008 8:30 AM:

" ok. really. no. I think its a bad idea. mostly because i dont really think that
north dakota is ready for it. i mean theres not that many people in north dakota and the swimming pool would just bring us down. Sometimes you have to wait for
good things like this swimming pool. I do not think it is a good idea now.
But maybe in the future it would be better. "

ndguy wrote on Mar 6, 2008 8:21 AM:

" To Workout: my point exactly. These mini workout areas are not what I'm talking about. It's swimming. To Indoor Pool: worded like “deserve” and “entitled” make me see red. We are not entitled to anything except life, liberty and the "pursuit" of happiness. The rest we PAY for in taxes or blood or both. To everyone else supporting this white elephant: As for this becoming a "major draw to attract athletic events and out of town activities", I thought the whole point was to give locals a place to go. Now you talk about using it for more economic activities and what does that do for the local recreational swimmers? It will squeeze them out again. I am not against swimming pools for recreational swimming! Keep them local, in the neighborhoods and available to everyone not just the athlete or elite. "

Flipper wrote on Mar 6, 2008 8:12 AM:

" The reason the indoor pool was voted down last time was because they had several other things attached to it which the people were not in favor of them it was the indoor pool. "

Becc wrote on Mar 6, 2008 8:10 AM:

" I agree with Outside The Box. If this aquatic center were to be built at BSC we would be land locking potential growth of the center and it’s uses. "

ndguy wrote on Mar 6, 2008 8:04 AM:

" To Workout: my point exactly. These mini workout areas are not what I'm talking about. It's swimming. To Indoor Pool: worded like “deserve” and “entitled” make me see red. We are not entitled to anything except life, liberty and the "pursuit" of happiness. The rest we PAY for in taxes or blood or both. To everyone else supporting this white elephant: As for this becoming a "major draw to attract athletic events and out of town activities", I thought the whole point was to give locals a place to go. Now you talk about using it for more economic activities and what does that do for the local recreational swimmers? It will squeeze them out again. I am not against recreational swimming pools. Keep it local in the neighborhoods for everyone not just the elite or athlete. "

Outside the box wrote on Mar 5, 2008 9:54 PM:

" Why not build a new event center that can handle larger events out by the fairgrounds? Then change the exhibition hall in the civic center into a big pool. Better location, better parking, not tied to BSC and we could have state basketball and swimming going on at the same time!! I just don't think the BSC area can handle the increase in traffic and you are landlocking a facility that has growth potential... or the planners know that it is not a good idea and will not grow... so they purposely build it in a landlock. "

JustMe wrote on Mar 5, 2008 8:12 PM:

" Or better yet, put it to a vote, LET ALL THE VOICES BE HEARD!

(As I remember, last time they decided to increase spending of their current over the top budget, it was unanimously voted down.) "

swim parent wrote on Mar 5, 2008 6:08 PM:

" The exercise area is for BSC students - their priority.

If you want exercise, look no further than the Y - they are addressing community fitness needs with a state of the art addition.
Exercise for the community is being provided by others - this is not the business of the Park and Rec.

A case may be made for more pool space but at what cost to the taxpayer - $12 million?

"

Indoor pool wrote on Mar 5, 2008 3:54 PM:

" As a resident of Bismarck why are we shorting ourselves on something that the entire community could use? Don’t we deserve a nice spacious place to swim, workout and play? Should we not be entitled to a state of the art facility where we can go by with friends and family to create memories and to stay fit too? Isn’t about time we quit making do with the old and broken and move on? We deserve more than we are getting. Let our voices be heard.
"

Workout wrote on Mar 5, 2008 3:50 PM:

" To ndguy ---- there are many mini fitness facilities all over town with a new another one opening soon. These are neighborhood workout centers and are small and will accommodate the surrounding area they are located. But remember there is NO pool at any of these locations. "

Parent of swimmer wrote on Mar 5, 2008 3:22 PM:

" I too am worried that BSC will have preference over the wellness & aquatic center. I like the idea of having a pool adjustment with the wellness center. Well kids are swimming – parents are working out. This is a win win situation for the whole family. "

OOLS wrote on Mar 5, 2008 3:18 PM:

" We live next to a major US river that can be very dangerous. I can’t believe that swimming lessons are not offered through the Bismarck School system. Our children need to be able to swim to help them when they are out in the boats and on the sand bars. If Bismarck builds a large indoor aquatic center, people will come and use it. Bismarck needs to build this indoor facility and make sure they build it large enough for future growth or with the options of adding on to it. "

ndguy wrote on Mar 5, 2008 2:49 PM:

" Wellness center? What happened to the clinics, hospitals, gyms, etc. in Bismarck? Why not call it what it is, another boondoggle. My question again, WHY ONE BIG CENTRAL FACILITY? Look what one big centralized government has gotten us. We need neighborhood swimming pools not an “aquatic center”. Bigger is not better, folks. Just because Minneapolis has the Mall of America, does Bismarck have to build the Mall of the World? Yes I exaggerate but I hope you get my point. Some on here are saying that if we build this monstrosity it will look good to those who come to town. Frankly, looking good for the sake of looking good just doesn’t make sense. You may date someone based on looks alone but you marry someone of substance. We will attract new business and new people to our community when we have something of substance they want. Clean attractive facilities within walking or easy driving of their home is substance, an “aquatic center” is pretty for those close by but has no value to those who can’t reach it or are not allowed to use it because of “scheduling” problems. "

KK wrote on Mar 5, 2008 2:46 PM:

" I am for a new aquatic center 100%. The problem still remains that questions are not being answered. It would be fantastic if responses to some of these concerns would be addressed by "people in the know". That would be a huge step to keep the process moving. Step up to the forum..... park board personnel, BSC, school board, city officials, engineers, infrastructure professionals, developers, consultants, etc. Generate and take serious community input. "

Bad location wrote on Mar 5, 2008 1:23 PM:

" Having this center at BSC would be a HUGE mistake and traffic nightmare. I work in the area and there are very limited entry/exits in and out. "

weneedthis wrote on Mar 5, 2008 11:21 AM:

" To joe taxpayer...

Read the above article again and I believe you will see it called Aquatic/wellness center in the first few lines. This center is needed for all to enjoy. It isn't intended to pull business away from any other gyms/fitness centers. It is intended to provide a long overdue facility for swimming and other activities. This facility has been designed to provide users with the most bang for their buck so to speak. Those of you against this see it as a waste of money. When I am sure most other facilities that the park and rec have built in the past were probably looked at like that too. But we sure enjoy them all don't we. "

to think big wrote on Mar 5, 2008 10:57 AM:

" Obviously you do not uderstand taxes. Perhaps you should look it up online instead of blogging incorrect data. You can always google mill levies for dummies. "

joe taxpayer wrote on Mar 5, 2008 9:56 AM:

" To we need this:

Since when did this become an Aquatic and .....Wellness Center? Isn't this being advertised as an indoor aquatic center with a wellness space for BSC students. Is their some deception going on here? The public has plenty of places to exercise in this community and all the gym owners in this community don't want competition from a tax supported competitor!

The case can be made for an indoor competition pool (albeit for much less money) but not for a public wellness center. "

Think Big wrote on Mar 5, 2008 8:42 AM:

" Dumbfounded -

Interesting thoughts on your taxes. Here's another thought: the city gets more and more sales tax every year and they pride themselves on their roads and streets. Our awesome school district got more money from the state to take care of our kids and their education. Where will the park district get more funds to take care of a growing and changing community? By taking the growth in the assessed value of your house. That's not a tax increase.
I think the aquatic complex will be a huge benefit to our community. Take a look back 10 years and ask yourself what the Community Bowl has done. See what I mean? "

no problem wrote on Mar 5, 2008 8:17 AM:

" I agree that we should go forward with plans for a pool. However, this capitol lease back is a joke. The city and the school system should step up and chip in some money to make this happen. "

I Like Swimming wrote on Mar 5, 2008 7:56 AM:

" What happened to Elk's Pool? It turned into a little splash and fountain pool for toddlers with lines everyday because it only holds a few people. Hillside? Sounds like they pretty much have plans set to finish it off. OK, so this new center will have lanes for laps and lots of features for competition and training teams. But what about fun swimming like we used to be able to do at Elks and Hillside? I suppose, looking at how the 'Public' tennis courts and ice arenas work that the public will get to swim from 11:00 AM to 12:00 PM M, W, and F. The 'Public' facilites in this city are becoming less open to general use each year. This simply is not right. "

weneedthis wrote on Mar 4, 2008 8:38 PM:

" Some of you people are missing the point. Yes, it is going to cost money. Yes, it is a huge undertaking. Now ask this, How will the city of Bismarck, its citizens and visitors view this facility. This is an Aquatic and Wellness center. All who use this will benefit from it. Not only in terms of health and fitness but from pride. This facility will bring with it the possibility of hosting large events that will bring in many out of town and maybe out of state people to our fine city. This revenue will help offset the cost of operating this facility on top of all the already talked about stuff. This facility has been a long time in caoming and it is about time that Bismarck steps up and adds to an alredy wonderful Park system. Lets build this and enjoy!! "

what planning wrote on Mar 4, 2008 4:02 PM:

" I can't figure out how the city doesn't have $100,000 for a stop light at a school, but they can fork out money from the general fund to help pay for the proposed aquatic center..... I'm all for the aquatic center, just not run by the crappy parks and wreck and not at BSC - why do they always look for land locked areas to build a great facility? "

ndguy wrote on Mar 4, 2008 3:01 PM:

" As I posted earlier, I have no problem with an indoor pool/complex, whatever you want to call it. I believe Bismarck needs recreational facilities. My only concern is LOCATION! Why does everything have to go into BSC or even into one central location? Look at the neighborhood parks we currently have. Who's using them? Sure Sertoma gets a lot of use in the summer; it's big and by the river. What about the smaller parks? If you can't afford a bigger house what do you do? Remodel what you have. Same here. Look at what we have and remodel it to suit today's needs. Smaller neighborhood pools throughout Bismarck instead of one big complex. I bet if we look at smaller facilities spread through out our community using existing park board land, the cost would come in near the same as we see in the study and more people could use the pools. Why so big? There’s a lot to be said for neighborhood facilities. Now, that having been said, I do have a problem when athletic events and practices are driving the general public out of facilities. For as much waste as we see in our schools we could build pools at each one. Most of the waste isn’t cause by local school boards and administration either. But that’s a story for another time. "

Big Picture wrote on Mar 4, 2008 8:51 AM:

" Sure, an indoor aquatic (whatever happened to the word 'swimming'?) center would be nice. So would lots of things. But be sure to balance what the cost to the community does to your tax bill and how it affects other current and future programs. No services or facilities are free; the money has to come from somewhere. Be for it or against it but be well informed and consider the big picture. "

CarrollS wrote on Mar 4, 2008 6:16 AM:

" In retrospect, both of our highschools could have had swimming pools built in. They could have paid they're way quite well by this time. But, living in a conservative region like we are, building pools into schools wasn't going to happen in Bismarck. However, building public golf courses was a better idea. Something that could be used 6 months out of the year at best. There is some winter use on these by some. Perhaps to get our feet wet so to speak, the parks and rec should put a blow up building over the hillside pool. Like the one at the northside golf course, to see how it goes. That building stays blown up all year around. With all the tax money that this city takes in nowadays you'd think we could afford an aquatic center. Just the tax money from food and booze that people pay out unwittingly could pay for a pool. But I'm sure there is layer after layer of government to pay for. They can build whatever they want as long as we don't get taxed any more. Property taxes are high enough for most of us. Some don't care what they are apparently. With the price of commodities and inflation eating away at our dollars right now its hard to think about building a pool.

"

Hello wrote on Mar 3, 2008 10:44 PM:

" Not every person / families can afford to go to private gyms. I don,t have the finacial means to. It is about a quality of life. The Park and Rec offer that to the entire community. Through the things they provide. Like youth baseball, flag football, soccer, walking trails ect.. They have grants that help people of lesser means. Private gyms do not. It does not matter to them that you are the rich or the poor they allow everyone to use there facilaties. If you build it they will come. We live next to a major river but we do not have the means to offer proper swimming education to our youth. it just makes sense to build it.

"

put me down as a supporter wrote on Mar 3, 2008 10:02 PM:

" This is kind of exciting, after almost 20 years of talking about an indoor pool complex, it just might happen. YES!! "

Think outside of the box please wrote on Mar 3, 2008 9:53 PM:

" As a parent of young children and a taxpayer to this community, I would strongly urge community members to consider the potential growth this facility could create. This would come in the form of more community activities that are health and recreation focused, as well as the revenue that would accompany events able to be sponsored through this facility. Sometimes the value of the overall project needs to be reviewed in more than a dollars and cents mode, but of the whole picture impact. This would be an investment in our community. "

Make an effort wrote on Mar 3, 2008 6:59 PM:

" The bottom line is that everyone posting and concerned about this facility needs to ATTEND THE PARK BOARD MEETINGS. They can't hear you from your couch.

Don't let them make all of the decisions and then complain about it later. "

Vastprairie wrote on Mar 3, 2008 4:56 PM:

" Yes, Bismarck is growing and again we have growing pains. An aquatic center is needed and wanted. Growth comes with a cost and its not alway just infrastructure. More kids would participate in a swimming program if it was better publicized and we had a seperate, public facility associated with the schools. Go for it, lets swim!
"

can't pick and choose wrote on Mar 3, 2008 4:55 PM:

" It too support the aquatic center. I am amazed that the city of Bismarck doesn't have an indoor pool. Back in the late 60's and eary 70's I learned to swim at the old pool at the United Tribes. This was before the first pool at the YMCA. The Y built the pool and that met the needs of the city for a few years. Then there was talk about an indoor city pool, but the Y built the second pool. Once again the needs have outgrown what the Y has to offer. We truely need an all year round aquatice center, and several park board surveys have supported that need too.

"

New to Bismarck wrote on Mar 3, 2008 3:33 PM:

"
Bismarck prides itself on the growth in the community and bringing young people back to the state. New companies have moved in and spent millions, but where is the growth in Parks and Rec to keep up with people's off time in Bismarck? The Park and Rec facilities was a deciding factor on moving to Bismarck from Denver. As a new comer to Bismarck I favor the aquatic center. "

joe taxpayer wrote on Mar 3, 2008 3:18 PM:

" Old Guy - Good to know that if you have an opposing opinion to yours that you are a part of the negative crowd.

Mama Mia - Tax money is not supposed to compete with the private sector. A facility such as DIckinson's would compete directly with Gold's, Snap, Anytime, YMCA and the other 20 or 30 exercise centers/gyms i.n the community. That's not the Park District's business.

Express your opinion - Great comments, I appreciate your perspective! "

Express Your Opinion wrote on Mar 3, 2008 2:24 PM:

" Call your park board members and tell them what you think about this project. Ask questions. Write a letter to the editor. Encourage others to do the same. Whether you like the idea or not, this is a HUGE committment on the part of Bismarck's taxpayers for decades into the future. There is no turning back once it has started. It might be the best thing Bismarck ever had or it might be the biggest fiscal mistake in the history of the city. Call now! "

MamaMia wrote on Mar 3, 2008 2:09 PM:

" I know that there is less than a snowball's chance in hell that I'll ever use this facility, but if it will help our school kids and be a benefit to the community in general, I'd be willing to pony up for it. I live 10 miles out of town. Do I pay park district taxes? They're practically near my front door with their paths, so I am wondering. Dickinson has a fabulous aquatic/exercise center that some members of my family use 3 or 4 times a week. "

mother of teens wrote on Mar 3, 2008 2:01 PM:

" Ya - lets just talk about swimming for fun. The Elks pool is now a "splash pool" - do you know what that means - it means it is great for anyone under the age of 12. And since everyone cried about losing their Hillside pool to a indoor facility - have you looked at the proposed changes, again it is taking out the attraction for the teens - the slide. Just can you all let the city be and build a facility that will accomidate the entire city - the aquatic center. "

Old Guy wrote on Mar 3, 2008 1:11 PM:

" The comments keep coming and coming! I would like to suggest the negative group take a close look at Lincoln. Now there is a community that is better suited for all the anti-tax, not me group. They have marginal fire protection, marginal police protection, no quick emergency response, marginal roadways, no pools, no parks, and no schools! Sounds like a perfect place for the negative crowd. When you run out of fun things to do such as drink beer on your back porch, you could come to Bismarck and play softball, football, hockey, basketball, curling, a picnic, even swim if was during the day or after 9:00 PM. Oh, but then again you probably wouldn’t since the facilities were purchased and maintained with tax dollars! Thank goodness, we have people with vision and can see the present and future needs of this great city! For forty plus years, I’ve enjoyed all that my tax dollars have provided for the city as a whole even if I don’t use them personally! "

Dumbfounded wrote on Mar 3, 2008 12:21 PM:

" Watch your tax statements. The assessed value of property goes up five to ten per cent each year. The park board views this as a unlimited piggy bank. The park board is the only one of the entities that increases its taxes greater than inflation each year. Our country is headed for recession and this park board is trying to head it off all by its self. "

joe taxpayer wrote on Mar 3, 2008 11:34 AM:

" Everyone reading these comments should look at what 'ridiculous too' commented. I think he is clearly communicating what is frustrating so many taxpayers and that is the high cost (not even counting operating cost) and the manner that this project is being moved through. I'm sure most folks want our community to improve, but he covered the main point. That is not negative, but rather facts. "

Swimmer wrote on Mar 3, 2008 10:10 AM:

" "The facility will feature a 50 meter pool with moveable bulkheads and a smaller recreation pool for swimming lessons and lap swimming. The moveable bulkheads will allow for a number of configurations of the larger pool for practice and competition."

Whatever happened to just swimming for fun? Just splashing around and playing free-style? Like so many did at teh Elks and Hillside. Out in the sunshine. I don't like the sounds of this. "

Fee Payer wrote on Mar 3, 2008 9:59 AM:

" While we are talking fees - exactly how much does our public school system pay to the YMCA for its use for the swim teams, track team to condition in the pool, etc.
And yes, Mandan has a great aquatic facility, and that is why they were able to host the State Swim Meet this weekend and why they have a very large swim team and the support of their community. Common, we can't expect to grow as a Bismarck community and then also expect our citizens to drive to another city to use their facilities - you would think it would be the other way around wouldn't you. "

Responsible taxpaying citizen wrote on Mar 3, 2008 9:04 AM:

" I am greatful to the Park Board for having and open mind and taking the steps to go through with this project. And I am thankful that we have people like the Streamline group that are helping our city with this project. This community is fortunate to have these citizens. And we will be very fortunate to have such a great facility in our city. It is much needed for the whole community and will be used and enjoyed by the whole community. Not everyone will always be happy and some people just need something to be upset about - if it isn't this project it would be another. Change and growth are positive especially for a growing community like ours. Keep that open mind Park Board and do the progressive thing for our community. "

Old Guy wrote on Mar 3, 2008 8:35 AM:

" It's great to read so many misinformed negative comments! If all you negative folks cared you would have been at the Parks Board Meeting and would have heard the facts. I compliment our well-organized negative smear group here in Bismarck who only thinks of themselves and not for anyone else or the good of the community. I'm 68 yrs old and not a competitive swimmer but I am looking forward to a facility that maybe improves my quality of life by water exercise. Not only that, just maybe my Grandson may be more willing to stay and go to school at BSC if it had a facility like every other college in the country. Maybe the schools can use the pools for physical ed classes and just maybe a kid’s life will be saved from drowning by learning how to swim in school. "

Mandan has a pool wrote on Mar 3, 2008 8:10 AM:

" If I lived in Bismarck and I couldn't swim until 8pm, I would take a nice drive over to Mandan. The Community Center is a very inviting and accomodating facility with a beautiful pool, lap lanes and general swimming. It isn't any further than it would be for some to drive to the Y to swim. It's an option if you feel the Y is too crowded or is available at inconvenient times. Right off I-94, can't get much easier. "

More Info Needed wrote on Mar 3, 2008 6:30 AM:

" Some posters are telling people to get the facts before not supporting this project. The public and taxpayers not having the facts is part of the problem and a red flag. The promoters and park board should be going overboard to get details to the public if they want support. Not just the concept and some murky information about financing. Exactly WHAT is being proposed and exactly HOW is it to be financed? Not a vaque overview but the DETAILS. I'll support it if I think it makes sense but I will not support something that is vaque and shifting like a fun-house floor. I am not comfortable with this at all until there is more information; why would anyone be? "

weneedthis wrote on Mar 2, 2008 8:55 PM:

" For those of you who didn't read any of the info on the new aquatic center here are some updates. Streamline isn't raising money to build the pool, but for other equipment needed for the pool. As for the practice times of swimmers my daughter swims in the AM & PM so take a break from that. If this had to do with a more visible sport it already would be built. Bismarck it is time to wake up and realize that there are more sports out there than Football, Basketball, Baseball & Hockey( my 2 boys are involved in these sports). Please take the time to ask people who know the truth about this project before you decide we don't need it. There are way too many people out there that think they know the facts but they are wrong.

"

not a golfer wrote on Mar 2, 2008 8:40 PM:

" Last I read, the BSC student body was in support of the Aquatics and wellness center. They voted and accepted the rate increase. I went to school at BSC and wasn't lucky enough to have a vehicle to use on a daily basis. I only wish something like this was available on the hill then. Also, the high school swimmers and other competitive swim teams do practice in the morning as well as in the afternoon and sometimes in the evening. They often swim 5 or more to a lane as there are an average of 5 adult women who need three lanes to "Aquasize". This is and has been dangerous. "

Law wrote on Mar 2, 2008 7:01 PM:

" I agree the city needs an indoor pool. I may be missing something but if Streamline is going to getting donations to build the pool then why do they get to recoup their costs by charging rent to the District? By the way Bismarck needs two more ice rinks also. Since the Parks and Trails can't keep the outdoor ice in good shape at most of the rinks the only other option for public skating will be more inside ice. Maybe BSC wants iceskating classes also. "

ridiculous too wrote on Mar 2, 2008 6:32 PM:

" $53,000 x 12 months x 20 years = over $12 million plus additional operating costs.

Why aren't we voting on this? If the Public School wanted to spend this kind of money there would be a vote. Does the Park and Rec have this much of OUR money to burn? How about giving it back through property tax relief!!
I vote no and so would most of Bismarck if they knew the truth. "

common man wrote on Mar 2, 2008 5:56 PM:

" So why don't the swimmers practice in the am or in the evening? The hockey players do, the gymnasts do and so do many other sports .
Regarding Streamline and the cost of the pool. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that a payment is a payment. Whether it is streamline building the pool or a bank loaning the money this is not a gift. Streamline is passing the cost on to the Park and Rec and then to we taxpayers. The only reason this is being done is to bypass the taxpayer and avoid a vote. The cost to the city is the same no matter what financing method is used. If we wanted this project, we would have voted yes to the people and parks vote a few years ago. If you think that Streamline is somehow paying for this or a portion of this project you don't have a clue and that's what so many taxpayers are upset about. This project will cost taxpayers over $14 million dollars by the time it's all paid for and that's for only the property and building - no operating costs and it will take a lot to operate this facility. A lot more than $100,000 per year. And who's poaying for all the equipment in the wellness center for BSC to use? is that part of the $300,000 rental agreement that BSC is paying for? If it is then the $300,000 is not truly for operating costs but rather for equipment too.
If this went to a vote it would be soundly defeated. And if you think that swimming is going to be as big as hockey, it never will be - count how many swimmers there are in mandan, minot and the other communities with pools. Very few compared to other sports. A smokescreen and lease back arrangement is how this project is going to bypass a public vote. I don't think this is even legal. "

Ed wrote on Mar 2, 2008 4:53 PM:

" To Everyone against Opportunities: Why can we not have an agreement with BSC for the aquatic and wellness center? If everyone is worried about the schools taking the pools time, why not ask if they are backing the pool? If they don't back the aquatic center, why should preference be given to BHS and CHS swim teams. Maybe we need to ask the Bismarck Public school board to get a pair and back the aquatic center. "

Old Guy wrote on Mar 2, 2008 3:43 PM:

" What a great opportunity this is for the people of Bismarck! I've given up trying to swim laps at the Y, There is never any room in the pool! Swimming is one of the few exercises I can still do with a bad back. I can't personally afford to buy a place to swim to keep me walking. That's the great thing about North Dakota and Bismarck in particular; people caring for others and always trying to make the state a better place! Hopefully with a new pool and an exercise place at Bismarck State my grandson will reconsider where he goes the first two years of college. I'd rather have him in a pool or in a weight room than other places in town.
or weight room than some of the other places in Bismarck "

JustMe wrote on Mar 2, 2008 12:42 PM:

" Your right, I will go work out, I pay the fee to, so I will go. If I don't pay the fee, I can't go. If you want to go swim, pay a fee, but keep it that way. Mosy of Bismarck doesn't want to go, so don't make us! "

Everyday People wrote on Mar 2, 2008 10:07 AM:

" What concerns me is what I saw happen with the indoor ice rinks, too. They were open a lot of hours and it only cost a dollar or two to go use them. Now, they are open a few hours for public skating when most people are working and all the rest of the time is hockey. Not everyone can afford to be in hockey or swim meets but everyone can afford a dollar or two to swim or skate if the hours are when most are off work. This new pool would be fine but it sounds like they will cut back on other swimming like Hillside and they already did at Elks so where does the public go to swim? Thsi concerns me. "

Ridiculous wrote on Mar 2, 2008 10:00 AM:

" This is absolutely RIDICULOUS!! More money spent for us taxpayers!! What happens when the new school is completed by the 2011-2012 school year? More money for us taxpayers, we definately need more schools here in Bismarck but we sure as heck DO NOT NEED this pool, not to mention the fact of where this pool is to be built, BSC CAMPUS??/ Gee how convenient!!! You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that one out!!!!!!!!! Pretty soon we will be way above the Mandan residents with our taxes! Time to think about relocating elsewhere! "

concerned 60 wrote on Mar 1, 2008 11:06 PM:

" I have lived in Bismarck for a long time and I have watched this community grow. The Y, the only source of indoor swimming in Bismarck, has become inundated by the various demands on their aquatic facilities. They have chosen not to address them and therefore created a real need for another facility. This need reached critical mass at least ten years ago. The city/park board is being offered a gift, a group of private citizens financing the project and then leasing it back to the city for a cost that can be covered by users and the agreement with BSC. what part of great offer isn't understood. "

Tax paying citizen wrote on Mar 1, 2008 11:01 PM:

" Ya - Just Me - you go work out in the new gym and new spacious wieghtlifting area - your right, it is all about you! "

JustMe wrote on Mar 1, 2008 5:54 PM:

" I agree 100%. Why build a pool at a cost of $4,000 per swimmer? If these kids want to train for a school team, get the facitlity built through the Bismarck school's athletic funds. Maybe they should raise money like the other teams have to when they would like something, instead of tiptoeing around a vote in this community. I never said skip school to go swimming for their team, but like hockey players, they don't complan for another indoor rink, they practice in the mornings, just like I had to back in the day. I just can't believe that so many people will bypass how a building will be funded and paid for year after year, all they want is a building now. Pretty soon we will be paying taxes like Mandan, but who cares to you, you'd rather just go swim. (By the way, I do go during the high traffic time. I work out every day at the Y as soon as I get off work at 5.) "

Old Timer wrote on Mar 1, 2008 5:02 PM:

" ......."I have a hockey player and one of the reasons they can have so many hockey players is that the city can accomidate the numbers - if there were more swimmers competeing where would they train".......

That's right. and that's what will happen with this 'community' pool. People that have been around here awhile remember that when Schaumberg ice arena was built there used to be public skating almost every day and evening and much of the weekends. Slowly that got edged out as hockey took over all the ice time to where we are today with almost no public skating. The same thing will happen to the 'community' pool. Public use time will get shaved back as there is more demand for training time and competitions and the genral public's use time will be a slice here and there around the edges. So predictable. "

tax payer wrote on Mar 1, 2008 3:58 PM:

"
Re: "Just Me" you have name yourself appropriatly. No, you have not been to the Y M-F from 4:00 - 8:00PM. If you were you have seen kid's on top of kids, adults cannot even get time in the pool until after 8-8:30PM. Somewhere you came up with the thought that Bismarck has plenty of pool space???? You must mean the river, well 9 months out of the year its a little chilly. Hope the board moves quickly on this.... looking forward to Fall of 2009. Great Job to most of the park board, assuming this moves forward. "

harpua wrote on Mar 1, 2008 3:56 PM:

" Just swim in the river... "

Community supporter wrote on Mar 1, 2008 12:09 PM:

" Many of the detractors writing in response to this article are conveniently referring to (and exaggerating) the cost of the aquatic center. The detractors are not acknowledging that the initial cost is being funded by Streamline, and the detractors are not acknowledging that most of the operating costs of the pool will be recuped by the Park Board. The net annual cost to the Park Board is anticipated to be around $110,000 per year, a very reasonable amount for the City of Bismarck. This amount will be even less if the proposed biomass system is used. The pool is not intended to benefit only the individuals participating in competitive swimming, as the Common Man would have everyone believe, but it will benefit the community as a whole, because the school system will now be able to offer swimming lessons to all of the students, the students at BSC will have a wellness center and everyone will have the opportunity to learn to swim and to swim for fun and exercise. This benefits the community as a whole!

"

citizen wrote on Mar 1, 2008 11:04 AM:

" To common man - I have a hockey player and one of the reasons they can have so many hockey players is that the city can accomidate the numbers - if there were more swimmers competeing where would they train - at the Waterford? Come on have you been to other cities in North Dakota, the majority have swimming pools connected to their high schools (Jamestown, Minot, Fargo, Williston?) All the city wants is to have a community access pool that can accomidate everyone - it is not too much to ask. "

DVD maker wrote on Mar 1, 2008 10:52 AM:

" I too was real negative about the need for additional pools in Bismarck. Back in the early 90's I was just starting my career in Bismarck and my kids were young. I remeber being very negative when the BHS and CHS wanted to build pools with their expansions. I voted NO over and over again. I thought we don't need additonal pools, I was also very negative about the "bowl" I was very much an anti tax person. Well as it turned out my kids ended up being swimmers. Now I am kicking mysef. My thoughts have changed, and now I tend to support most of what is in front of the park board. I remeber all the negative stuff about the "bowl". Now thats the first place I take visitors to our great city. It's being used almost all year round. The pool would be used all year round, by the swim teams, swim clubs, the Bismarck school system, Bismarck State College, and the general community. If we followed the logic of all the negative people here, we would have no park system. Our parks our for the bennifit for the entire community, even if you yourself don't use them.

"

common man wrote on Mar 1, 2008 9:39 AM:

" To disgusted,
Great move - it's important to build a 12 million indoor pool (with interest) for the 150 competitive swimmers in the community. That's approximately $4000 per year per swimmer - great investment! You gotta be kidding - an investment of this size for so few users. Andy don't compare to other sports - if you look at some of the other sports in bismarck - hockey etc, you'll see far more users and also those user groups raised the moajortiy of the dollars needed to bulid their facilities - not just dump it on the taxpayers. This whole smokescreen is the only way to push this through. If you want the true feeling of the taxpayers then put it to a vote and you'll see it soundly defeteated. And what else will be built into this facility so it can compete with local gym owners who are trying to make a living while paying taxes to compete with themselves! Hwo can this be passed without being voted upon? This is the largest single project the Park and Rec has ever done - thi sis incredible. "

Way to Go! wrote on Mar 1, 2008 9:31 AM:

" To JustMe - you obviously do not know what you are writing about. There absolutely is not "plenty of space to swim". I know first hand that the coaches, swimmers and parents of the Bismarck swim club are frustrated, that the coaches, swimmers and parents of the high school swim teams are frustrated, that the parents of young children taking (or trying to take) swim lessons are frustrated, that the persons wanting to do water aerobics or exercise classes are frustrated, that the persons who want to do lap swimming are frustrated and that the persons who want to just play in the pool are frustrated. There simply is not enough pool space to accomodate all of the users. The new aquatic center is needed for the Bismarck community! "

a swimmer wrote on Mar 1, 2008 9:21 AM:

" I am an adult swimmer and try to go to the YMCA after work to swim; it is crowded. I normally need to wait until after 8 pm to be able to get into the lap lanes. The YMCA obviously doesn't think this is an issue since their expansion project did not address the pool situation at all. I am greatfull to the park board members for finally taking some steps towards this much needed expansion. Thank you!! "

disgusted wrote on Mar 1, 2008 8:28 AM:

" I am horrified by some of the comments posted here. If you are going to make a comment on a topic it would be beneficial for you to have some knowledge of what you are commenting about. To the individual who stated that the Y pool is usually empty - have you ever been to the Y? Four nights a week we have 10-15 swimmers sharing a lane for practice. I would hardly classify that as empty. I'm sure you would suggest that they show up earlier when there is more room. However, they are children and attend school during the day. Perhaps you would recommend that they skip school so they can practice their sport.

We have a very talented group of swimmers and divers; unfortunately some of you don't seem to think they are important. Minot supports and appreciates their children and have a swimmer going to the Olympic trials. We don't even support a facility they can practice in. West Fargo supports their swimming and diving team and they have an excellent program. We would prefer to add yet another walking trail than support our young athletes. What does that say about Bismarck as a community? We are way behind and it will negatively impact us in the near future.

We are in desparate need of an aquatic facility. I applaud the initiative and intelligence of the BSC community to support this endeavor. There are many others in Bismarck who also support our kids and their dedication to their sport. I can only hope and pray that the aquatic center is built and built soon.
"

Way to Go! wrote on Mar 1, 2008 8:18 AM:

" There is a strong need for an indoor pool and the citizens of Bismarck have long requested one. The plans presented to the Park Board offer a tremendous facility for which the City can be proud. Despite the numbers included in the article, the prelimary budget prepared by the Park staff shows that the aquatic center, unlike most park facilities, will almost pay for itself. Way to go Park Board for finally giving the City of Bismarck the pool it needs and has long wanted! "

JustMe wrote on Mar 1, 2008 1:24 AM:

" Concerned parent: you must not use other facilities around Bismarck, as we have more parks than any other places around us, as they already have enough facilities to worry about then a large aquatic center. There is plenty of space to swim, don't kid yourslef. They do not need another large center to manage, they can't manage funds the way it is. With Bismarcks luck, they will probably build large eagle statues all around the pools edge too... "

concerned parent wrote on Feb 29, 2008 11:10 PM:

" To Just Me - you obviously don't use the YMCA pool. It is very crowded and in comparison with other ND cities that are actually smaller, the YMCA aquatic facility is an emarassment. I say an embarassment because it reflects on us as city taxpayers and what we are willing to do for our community -- not much. We need to remember that with our growing city, we had better keep up with not only the Walmarts available but the activities that are available to our families and our youth. And obviously we won't all get in free, that is just stupid - just as you don't get into the YMCA free but it would be more affordable that going to Raging Rivers for the day wouldn't it. As for will it be crowded like the YMCA - no it won't because people have put a lot of plannning into this project - I've seen the plans at the city meetings and they will be accomidating. "

Hello wrote on Feb 29, 2008 9:55 PM:

" If youever went the ymca (for profit business} after school until 9pm you would see bothpools are filled. They are to the point of turming kids away. the motion Quist made was done to derail the project which is no secret he is against. The other commisioners saw through it. He was also asked why he proposed such a motion and he denied to explian. Little bit of underhandedness going on. Good for the rest of the commisioners for seeing through this. the pool/athletic center is for everyone yes even youcan swim in it.. Check your figures about what a golf course cost and how manypeople can use i.{72} at one time whichi s ussually never full. we can argue all daybut this city is growing and we need to grow the paek system to meet demand. simple as that. "

steve wrote on Feb 29, 2008 9:36 PM:

" We do not need another pool in that area that is what the YMCA is for...build one out in lincoln...I grew up in that town they need something...that would be perfect, they said the reason they didnt have one before was because of the water...quess what they have bis. water now...hello... "

ndguy wrote on Feb 29, 2008 2:18 PM:

" Yes, we do need a new pool in Bismarck. Why BSC campus? Just so BSC doesn't have to build a new pool? Besides, if I were a student at BSC I'd revolt. Putting a $4 per credit fee on each semester means the average full time student will be charged between $120 and $128 per year based on 15 to 16 credits per semester. Seems to me we hear an awfully lot of crying about raised tuition and fees every year. Here we go again. Student tuition and fees plus books, housing and transportation cost enough. Why add more when we don't have to? Why not put it somewhere more central? There is a really large park between 8th and 10th street off Capital Avenue that is hardly ever used. It could easily accommodate that pool and all the parking required. There would even be room to leave the tennis courts I bet. I realize that people need and use neighborhood parks but it makes sense to use some of the underutilized space we already have. This whole thing looks like a way for Parks and Rec. to get a new pool built using a nifty little end run and no messy vote or hearings. "

JustMe wrote on Feb 29, 2008 1:58 PM:

" To concerned parent: You are welcome in advanced for paying taxes on your childs aqautic activities. The pool is not needed, the Y's pool is usually empty, and it is not a good decision to build such a money eater of a project when they can't figure out how to spend funds in the first place. By the way, you say it is a pool the whole city can use...will eveyone who pays taxes get in for free, since we are paying for it, and since you say it is for everyone to use, will it hold 50,000 people or will that just make it crowded like the Y? "

bismarckian wrote on Feb 29, 2008 1:40 PM:

" So now taxpayers are not only paying millions for this project for a few of us to use, but we are also paying for this so BSC students have a facility?
I'm sure the $300,000 per year is to defray operating costs - a rental agreement for students to use and is part of their annual operating budget.
Nice arrangement for BSC as they don't have to have a huge capital expenditure to get the services they need........all on the shoulders of the taxpayer! This is ridiculous. Who is looking out for us?! Doesn't this need a vote or is their enough of a smokescreen hiding it? "

to concerned parent wrote on Feb 29, 2008 1:24 PM:

" In case you didn't notice: The commissioners were afraid to make the pool a priority. That is a clear sign that when the bills come in from the other projects that they will ditch the pool. That's part of the problem of wnating everything and prioritizing nothing. "

concerned parent wrote on Feb 29, 2008 11:38 AM:

" Way to go Park Board - you are making good decisions for our city. We NEED this aquatic facility for our youth and for the young families in this community. It will be a great asset to Bismarck. The YMCA pool is crowded and they have chosen not to include it in their expansion project, thanks to our park board we will have a facility that the whole city can use. "

JustMe wrote on Feb 29, 2008 10:40 AM:

" Oh, just reread the article, they are putting in a biomass filter. It will have a payback in 5 years, thats savings of about $450,000 after implementation? Why does the park board not build more of these for all of their complexes to pay for their costs if they are greatest thing since sliced bread, or possibly build one at their rediculous dog parks to get rid of all the biomass they leave behind, ha. Regardless, tax payers are paying for a pool for BSC. I still have school loans to payback and pay taxes in town here, one school payment at a time here! "

citizen wrote on Feb 29, 2008 10:08 AM:

" From the numbers included above we can assume that the Park District - which means we taxpayers, will be paying $636,000 in lease payments per year + $115,000 in operating costs per year for a grand total of $751,000 per year.
I don't want to be paying this through my taxes each year. I do I choose not too? There is no vote to the public! This amounts to over $12,000,000 total for the project plus over $2,000,000 in additional operating costs for a total of $14,000,000 over the course of 20 years and we have no say or vote in this?! My money is much more important than this and every other tax payer should be looking at this the same way. This is government at its worst and is out of control and this decision does not represent the taxpayers. The parks improvement package a few years ago was voted down soudnly by the public and that total was approx $20 million. What is the difference between those projects and this sinlge project totalling $14 million?? Why is a project of this size not being brought before the taxpayer? It is being rammed through under the guise of a lease back package. FInancing has to come from somewhere whether it is a bond, bank loan or lease - there is no difference to the tax payer - we will pay the same no matter what. This is ridiculous and doesn't this border on illegal? "

s wrote on Feb 29, 2008 9:48 AM:

" What is this going to cost the tax payers????Plus what I have to pay to get through the front doors of this building.Do I get to use the pool? "

JustMe wrote on Feb 29, 2008 9:13 AM:

" Quist is a good man, took his class, very educated. Hopefully he will show the rest of the park board what a waste of money this whole project is, the parks and wreck can barely keep its head above the water when it comes to spending, what are they thinking staying in the pool business? I thought Bismarck learned it's lesson when they got the wadding pool off of Washington for a couple million dollars, hopefully for $8 million more than a 20 people can swim at once and maybe just maybe be mroe than 4 feet deep. "

poor reporting wrote on Feb 29, 2008 7:36 AM:

" Lucky channel 12 is covering this meeting also. One of the commissioners, I think it was Quist, made a motion to make the pool the number one overall priority and it failed for lack of second. This was perhaps the biggest thing that happened pertaining to the pool and it wasn't even brought up. "

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