Bismarck Tribune - North Dakota News - Salary listing looks like a typo

Salary listing looks like a typo

Jan 15, 2008 - 04:05:31 CST

By DAVE BENDER
Bismarck

I'm more and more thankful for the well-paying job I have every time I read the classified section of the newspaper. I'm a "Bismarck boy who's come home," and with some wise choices and secrets to contentment, I'm able to raise my three boys here in Bismarck, the way I was raised - with the mom at home, the mom who was the driver for every field trip we took in Mrs. Schimelpfinig's fifth-grade class at Riverside Elementary.

My thankfulness arose again when I saw that Valley City State University is looking for a tenured professor of mathematics who has a doctorate (preferred), with a top salary of $38,000. I thought to myself, Surely this is a typo.

Are we going to get more Bismarck boys home with a whopping $38,000 a year for a professor at a college? That isn't enough money to raise our families the way we were raised, mom will not be driving for field trips or waiting for me with hot chocolate after the normal sled riding trip in Zonta Park after school each day, not if you're only going to pay me $38,000 after I received my doctorate in math. What are we thinking in North Dakota? Let's start being honest with how much it costs to live here and how much it costs to keep our North Dakota values being taught to another generation of Dakota kids.

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Comments

Allen wrote on Jan 23, 2008 3:09 PM:

" To: To Allen

I don't expect people making $50k or less to buy a $200k home, certainly not without a lot of money down. Nor should you!

That's why there are less expensive homes on the market. They may not be new, could maybe use a coat of paint, a new door, or window. But houses for people with incomes below $50k do exist.

All you have to do is look at the realtor websites and get into the MLS posting and you will find a number of homes valued at ~ $100k. If you make $50k and want to live in a mansion; well, nothing I say or do is going to stop you from having delusions of self worth.

I have no delusions of living down on Fox Island where the homes are in the $300-500k range where I can park a pontoon and fishing boat out back. "

to Allen wrote on Jan 22, 2008 3:28 PM:

" key---UNFINISHED basements. Zero landscaping. If you're lucky, they have 3 bedrooms up. I'd still like to see you get a loan for one of these fine homes on a combined salary of less than $50,000, which is still well above the median HOUSEHOLD income for ND. 40 year loans.....what a crock. Why is it, you think, that so many of them 2-5 year old homes are up for sale???? People bought them who couldn't afford them, the new builder tax exempt has expired, and so has the 3 or 5 year ARM. And why are they still UNFINISHED? Just passing the buck to some other poor sucker. Why can't homebuilders build affordable housing? Housing that coincides with MEDIAN wages? Why can't a couple who is working two full time jobs afford to buy a home? Even a condo in this town is unreachable for many people. Something has to give! "

Allen wrote on Jan 22, 2008 10:34 AM:

" To: To Ralph.

Yes you can. The houses up on the north side are less than $200k new, most with unfinished basements. Some of those are now sell in the $180 range even after the basements (2-5 yrs old) were finished and they are on 1.5 to 3 acre lots.
"

Allen wrote on Jan 22, 2008 10:29 AM:

" To: Thank you Allen.

You are welcome and thank you for the kind words.

I make a reasonable living at my current job and I had to leave UND to do it. Heck, I could make a lot more again by leaving my current position and/or ND. Probably won't happen though as I make a decent living now, am pretty happy with my work and I LOVE ND. I really enjoyed teaching and doing research so much that the 50-80 hr work weeks were tolerable, but the living conditions were horrid. We had a $40k, 100 plus year old house that leaned to the east, sagged in the middle, was wasp infested, and surprised me that it hadn't burnt to the ground every time I touched the wiring. It just didn't seem right that two people with graduate degrees should have to live in those conditions. Now, I can't even imagine spending that much time away from the kids and wife (I've been gone from UND almost 5 years now).

Part of the problem is that there is now an over abundance of PhD grads in the country. So while UND, VCSU, and the like will continue to get candidates to apply for and accept these positions of crappy pay; it just may not be the best of the PhD holders teaching our kids. And that to me is the root of the problem. We ARE starting to see (IMHO) a lessening in the quality of faculty at our universtities. "

Allen wrote on Jan 22, 2008 10:11 AM:

" To Chavez,

Much like I provided no proof that there wouldn't be cost savings to be had with moving 2 year technical degrees to a research institution, yo have provided no proof that there would be a cost savings. There would still need to be XXXXX square feet of office, teaching, and lab space for these moved programs. So unless you are asserting that there is UNUSED space at these larger schools, new buildings would have to be built and maintained. Where is that going to lead us into a cost savings? Same thing with the overall programs, you would still have a similar amount of staff for teaching and admin work to be done for those programs.

We will likely never agree on this topic, for every cost savings you can come up with, I can come up with a new cost or why that cost won't go away. "

To Ralph ??? wrote on Jan 21, 2008 9:35 AM:

" You couldn't buy a 2500 square foot house on 2 acres for that anymore..... I've been looking and it is over 200K easily. "

new approach wrote on Jan 20, 2008 9:02 AM:

" Beings wages are not going to go up maybe our higher schools of learning could hire some illegal aliens to teach classes on "living on nothing", "fence jumping", "five to a bunk", "working the welfare system" and more. Of course these "new age instructors" would be paid handsomely as they are illegals with knowledge that we don't have but will be desperate for in short order. Lets be thinking ahead, lets be first in line for that welfare check or food stamp. "

Chilly Willy wrote on Jan 19, 2008 11:58 AM:

" To 'To Chilly Willy' - My point, as I wrote, was some people enjoy complaining more then resolving situations, or at least seem to. There's a guy I work with who is constantly complaining about the government but he never votes or gets involved in any political action. He grouses all the time that he's getting a raw deal because another guy makes more than he does but he won't sign up for the training that the other guy finished that moved him up a level. He is constantly going on about not having enough money to pay for basics but he never runs out of beer or cigarettes. Life is hard but we have a lot more power to make things better than some people want to admit. I enjoy snuggling with my grandkids on the couch, too. There's a time for the couch and a time to be taking action. I hope things work out well for you; these are tough times for many! "

to Ralph wrote on Jan 19, 2008 10:57 AM:

" 1. How much money did you come back to ND with in order to buy your 2500 sf house? 2. Are you aware that you wouldn't get a loan for a $155,000 on an income of less than $50,000/year? 3. Find me a house in Bismarck-Mandan for under $100,000 that isn't on the edge of condemned (or on wheels). All your pretty talk means nothing if you didn't get what you have without first having left ND. "

To Chilly Willy wrote on Jan 19, 2008 10:49 AM:

" Get off the couch?? My hubby works year round full & plenty of overtime (overtime during seasons that require it, and that is like 7:30am to 11pm) He makes about $36,000 per year. We have 3 kids. I am a stay at home mom but for the last 2 years have been trying a business from home as well, but that has taken ALOT of money - and time to do. We can't afford daycare so I am also stretched really thin. Haven't made any profit yet and am looking at about 2 more years untill I hopefully do. But sometimes you have to cuddle on the couch with your kids, read them a book, enjoy being a parent too. Its a hard thing to do, especially with the cost of everything going up, especially the necessities in life. "

Chilly Willy wrote on Jan 19, 2008 9:48 AM:

" To LB: Yup. We can lay around and moan or we can get up and do something positive about what we don't like. But that takes getting off the couch. Or the porch. Some people really do seem to enjoy complaining! "

Ralph wrote on Jan 19, 2008 9:35 AM:

" Choices, I once lived in a large metro area and made a ton of money. I decided to move back here to simplify my life. One thing that you dont realize is that with better paying jobs also comes more people. (not just the ones we want to stay) I am not against our community growing but.... It is part of the reason that it is so great too. (small) I agree with you on the point that teachers should be the highest paying job in any government. I have a few "nail pounders" that make $16 to $20 bucks an hour. come on people. lets give our teachers a nice raise. Cost of living here is half of anyplace else. not grocerys and such but my 2500 square foot house on 2 acres only cost $155,000..... "

Flintstone wrote on Jan 19, 2008 9:25 AM:

" Here is a solution. All of the posters on this thread could pool their money, start a company, and pay ALL of the workers a minimum wage of $50,000. Put your money where your mouth is. How long would that last? "

abc wrote on Jan 19, 2008 8:01 AM:

" Is there a reason that the author only wants to bring the 'boys' home? Maybe it was a slip of the tongue, an innocent mistake... "

Thank you Allen ... wrote on Jan 19, 2008 2:06 AM:

" For telling A exactly what I was thinking. UUGGGHHH! I am not saying I despise ND. I do like it here, there are benefits to being in this state - its a great place to raise kids. But why are we expected to do it with NO fun, wants, vacations, entertainment, way to take our kids to special places. Yeah, we have tons of fun at home on a regular basis, but after working day in and out why can't my hubby be able to afford to take us somewhere new & fun for a break! Why is it ok to live off of $38,000 a year!? Times ARE changing, the world is revolving, growing, learning, we are trying. Why can't we be paid enough to keep up? Why is that wrong? This isn't little house on the prairie anymore, $38,000 in the world we live in is hard for a family of 5... and we just recently started making that wage! 2or 3 yrs ago it was only around 20,000, and before that it was about 10,000 PER YEAR. There is no question as to why we are in debt past our ears. We have 3 kids. Was that also to be considered a want only? Should we have ducked our heads and said Ok, because we cannot make high wages we better not have any kids, or better only have one and give them no siblings? That sucks. And we are STILL paying for student loans. I like to feed my kids fresh food too. I like them to have educational game systems and fun toys. I like to go out to eat sometimes. I like to have more than a grain sack for clothes. And we are in debt. ... Yet we don't go on vacations every year or even every other, we don't own fancy vehicles, we don't own a newer home. My hubby likes his job! Works with GREAT people (pro of living in ND!) we like our community. But ... we sure would appreciate a pay raise if you know what I mean! "

LB wrote on Jan 18, 2008 9:40 PM:

" TO ND GUY:
I think Chilly Willy's analogy doesn't neccesarily mean to get up and move out of state. I would interpret it also as maybe if you are not comfortable where you are change it. Maybe not change it geographically, but change your job or change make a change that makes you more comfortable or more happy. I think you took the word "move" a litte to literally. Just a thought, correct me if I am wrong Chilly Willy "

Bono wrote on Jan 18, 2008 3:34 PM:

" NDGuy - okay - I apologize for calling you a whiner (sly smile here myself) - you are right in what you say - I totally agree with you - prices are high, wages are low. But it's still a great place to live. I go visit the large city I lived in for 10 years and am SO happy to be home and out of the rat race when we get back. Money doesn't equal happiness.

"

Wow wrote on Jan 18, 2008 1:56 PM:

" I recently moved back to North Dakota. I grew up here and wanted to raise my kids in a place that taught values. When I moved back I couldn't find employment in the area that I had worked in previously. As a result, I took a $40,000 decrease in pay because I needed to get insurance for my family. It is crazy to expect people to do that. I, like many, do not live an extravagant life and get by, but living here does have its challenges. You spend less money on gas because you drive less, but groceries are not any less expensive than in the metropolitan areas due to the fact that there isn't much competition here. So I do not find it much cheaper to live here. If it wasn't for family here we wouldn't be making it at all. The state would like the young people to come back, but it is awful hard to do. "

Chavez wrote on Jan 18, 2008 10:08 AM:

" To Allen: True, many of those specialized programs (you mentioned auto mechanics and physical therapy) would have to be moved to the larger institutions. Moreover, ND could still be a net importer of students with only four or five colleges and universitites; you stated no reason whatsoever as to why reducing the number of schools would affect that--and certainly no proof. At the end of the day it is obvious that North Dakota simply has more higher ed institutions than it can afford to maintain. It just seems to me that by getting rid of the smaller ones, transferring the the "special" programs and money to UND, NDSU, Minot State, Dickinson State, and Bismarck State would be the way to go. True, the small towns wherein those smaller schools are located wouldn't like it, but in an age when on-line classes, distance classes (broadcast), and duplication are here, why not get rid of the rest? It would take a great deal of political courage for our politicians to do this, and given what I have seen of ND state politicians, they are quite deficient in that area. "

Chilly Willy wrote on Jan 17, 2008 6:43 PM:

" ndguy --- I think we have a lot more in common than you might think. Wages in ND are low; crazy low compared to what I could and have made elsewhere. Simple supply and demand. But I like it here, all things considered. That's why I'm here. I can live anywhere I want to. I don't ever suggest people leave; they can make that decision for themselves. But I do think too many people spend time complaining that could better be used trying to initiate change. BTW, I haven't interpreted your posts as complaining, in the usual sense. "

Free advice wrote on Jan 17, 2008 4:57 PM:

" ND guy - There are some constants that come with living in ND - we can't stop the wind, can't stop the heat and can't stop the cold. If you can't live with those three things you probably would be happier somewhere else, but from what I've found there are always things to find that you don't like in other places. Colorado gets more snow, there are snakes and bugs and heat and humidity in the southern states, fires out west, hurricanes on the coast...there's no perfect place. A friend of mine lives in Nevada and pays as much in utilities as I do because the air conditioner (swamp cooler or whatever) runs most of the time and they do need heat, also. As far as the cost of living, I don't believe that's a "ND problem". Yes, the wages are lower...we all agree on that. Housing is no more expensive than many areas and far less than some. My property taxes in the small town I live in 25 miles from Bismarck are $1300/yr and I have a very nice house (value in the $130,000 range) - I consider that cheap. ND income tax is cheap. Gas is a little higher but not enough to merit moving from the state for. If you are resolved to stay until retirement then the lower wages won't really matter when that point comes. For myself, I am happy with my life in ND - but I could see being a snowbird when retirement comes because the winters do get long. "

ndguy wrote on Jan 17, 2008 4:46 PM:

" to Chilly and Bono: Not much time so here goes. Chilly, your story hit close to home because all I see and hear is “if you don’t like it here, leave”. I’m getting tired of that old saw. No, I'm not complaining, just expressing my views. ND is a high tax, low pay state. Show me otherwise. As to the statement I won't be happy anywhere, I'm happy right where I am. Happiness is not dependent on a paycheck. I am dissatisfied with my income and my inability to give my children and grandchildren some of the things I would like. That takes money. I have lived in other states as have my children and I find ND to be a great state to live in as far as beauty and even the weather (I like 4 seasons). I even like some of the people who live here (sly smile). What we do find is that our cost of living to our salaries is way out of whack as compared to the other states we’ve lived in. As to my statement about organized labor, my point is that organized labor has outlived its benefit and has become more of a burden than a help to most employees. Had the state had unions and organized 60 years ago or even 50 years ago when Unions were at their peak, then, something could have been done to benefit our people today. "

Chilly Willy wrote on Jan 17, 2008 3:36 PM:

" To ndguy - - - You sure read a lot into my little post that wasn't there. Seems like we see what we look for. "

Bono wrote on Jan 17, 2008 3:13 PM:

" To NDguy - well I hope you can find what you are looking for out there - sounds like you are just a complainer and won't be happy no matter what. "

ndguy wrote on Jan 17, 2008 3:06 PM:

" To Chilly Willy and Don’t like it: Well, well. Now I’m an old hound dog too lazy to get up and move. Guess I’ve been called worse by better, so I’ll take it from whence it came. First to those that keep spouting “if you don’t like it, move”, been there done that returned home to help out family, now I’m the one can’t walk away, too close to retirement to risk losing benefits. You can bet your sweet bippy, baby, I’m out of here in 4 years and 6 months unless things change drastically and soon. My wife and I can’t afford to stay with the cost of everything (taxes especially) continually going up. It’s not that I don’t love ND, I was born and raised here and love this state. But as I posted earlier, there are some constants in our state that everyone can rely on: Wind, cold in the winter, heat in the summer, high taxes, low wages, and people like you who say, if you don’t like the heat, cold, taxes, wages, then move. I’m just tired of the high taxes, low wages and YOU who want me to leave. BTW, I do hold an advanced degree and don’t make $38,000. I took an $8000 cut to move back here 10 years ago and, had I stayed where I was, I would now be making well over $50,000. "

"right to work" for less wrote on Jan 17, 2008 3:02 PM:

" It is not too late to make a change in ND or any place. What it takes is people with the guts to stand up and take a stance. It is a hard thing to do by oneself but is a bit easier if two do it, if ten or twenty stand together then you have something. Don't expect it to be easy, good things come from hard work. Anyone interested in information about organizing an employer or joining a union, make the call to one of the labor organizations in the phone book. The AFL-CIO, IBEW, Pipefitters, Carpenters or others will be glad to help you get the information and resources you need. Do something for yourself and at the same time do something for North Dakota. MAKE A DIFFERENCE! "

to ndguy wrote on Jan 17, 2008 2:24 PM:

" Organized labor is the last thing ND needs. Unless, of course, you're a lazy worker who wants to get protected for doing nothing. "

LJK wrote on Jan 17, 2008 1:42 PM:

" No way should a person with a doctorate expect to be paid the same amount (or maybe $10,000 more) than someone with no college degree. It's ridiculous to even ask. If that level of pay is to be tolerated, what is the incentive to bother with graduate degrees? Just to feel good about having spent 8 or 9 nine years on higher level education and possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans that will take decades to repay?? Here's who will apply to that ad: Someone with a Masters who has no teaching experience (or one that has retired and last taught before Newton developed Calculus) and can't find employment elsewhere and needs healthcare and dental insurance. Expect them to bolt the second they find a position that actually pays a salary equivalent to their education. This cycle will continue until the student population realizes their diploma won't be worth the paper its printed on, due to the school's soon-to-be-established poor reputation, or the school wises up and pays teachers more money than garbage collectors. "

Chilly Willy wrote on Jan 17, 2008 1:18 PM:

" A guy went to visit his friend at his hunting cabin. As they visited on the front porch, the old hound dog at their side would periodically let out a loud moan and bellow. After awhile the guy asked the friend what the matter was with the dog. The friend said the dog was uncomfortable but was too lazy to get up and move to a different position. ; ) "

ndguy wrote on Jan 17, 2008 12:24 PM:

" The employers in the state of North Dakota have always paid less than employers in surrounding states. Why? Because they can get away with it. In the past there were few real employers in the state other than government or ag. When children left the farm they had two choices, accept the pay offered in town or leave the state. Government wouldn't (couldn't) pay well because the taxpayers couldn't (wouldn't) afford to pay higher taxes and the private sector just keyed off that and paid less. If anyone didn't like it, they were encouraged to seek employment elsewhere (like out of state). It's still the same today. The people of ND are finally waking up and realizing that we are being ripped off by both the public and private sector. Now all we need to do is grow a collective backbone, find a leader with "biguns" and get rid of the right to work laws. Sorry, it was a nice dream while it lasted, I'm awake now. We’re about 60 years too late for organized labor to make any difference here. "

Don't Like it - Move wrote on Jan 17, 2008 12:07 PM:

" If you don't like it, vote with your feet ... get a different Job, do something else that pays better. No one said that you had to stay in ND or atleast do the type of Job that you do. Plenty of people live in ND and get paid well. I'm sorry that the Schools and Universities don't pay well ... the only way they will change is if the educators leave their post. My advice to everyone that is unhappy with their pay is to do something about it. Stop complaining. "

outsource wrote on Jan 17, 2008 8:50 AM:

" here is a kickeer, wages are low enough in bismarck that we can actually outsource work from north bismarck to south bismarck. i guess the border just moved up to expressway. why pay a living wage when what one person does can be done by 2 for only 33% more pay? that employs two people who can't afford to live in our wonderful state capitol instead of one who can't afford to live in bismarck.. i guess that's how you increase population in bismarck (shelters). i have a friend who lives in bismarck who just had his job eliminated due to this. it happened in november & i couldn't believe this was happening. outsourcing in the same country, state, county, town...other states shouldn't worry about mexico or china, they should worry about north dakota...apalling! "

Free advice wrote on Jan 17, 2008 8:18 AM:

" Thanks to some for the thrashing...my point in sharing my own experience was to offer a word of caution to not let yourself get caught up by the thrill of making the "big money" and living a fast lifestyle - it's easy to confuse your "wants" from "your needs". I'm all for being successful and would encourage anyone to work hard and be all they can be - money is great - but as I noted in my prior post, you need to be disciplined. It's easy to be disciplined if you are living from check to check, but it's way easier, and far more fun, to be "undisciplined" if you are young and getting a nice fat paycheck! Did I make some poor choices earlier in my life, sure, but I don't think I'm the only one. My choices didn't destroy my life, cause me to go bankrupt, or any other terrible thing...I have a good retirement plan, my bills are paid on time and I can afford to do the things I enjoy. I may have some regrets but that's part of life - comes with experience and age and learning about what your priorities are. "Jim S." - thanks for understanding where I was coming from. "

"right to work" for less wrote on Jan 16, 2008 10:32 PM:

" Anyone ever think of what being a "right to work" (for less) state does to wages? Having people climbing over the top of each other to work for less just doesn't help. Those of you who are so high and mighty about being able to live on little of nothing, while taking more from the welfare system than you contribute, have not a clue what collective bargaining has done for you and what it would do for you if you joined up instead of riding its coattails. Everything from the 40 hour week to health insurance came from workers uniting and fighting for a common cause. United you bargain, divided you beg. Stand up and be counted. "

Jim S wrote on Jan 16, 2008 10:03 PM:

" To, To Free avdise. I think you missed the point. I agree with free advise. Facts are the even if you say you are not one of them but chances are you are one of the many that live outside your means. In the bigger cities it is more compeditive than here in the smaller communities and in the cities, one does feel they have to compete with the Jones's. Right or wrong, it is the way it is. I still get that way sometimes. I just figured it out that I can have all the toys; they just don't have to be new, they don't have to be the best, fastest or whatever. Grass is NEVER greener on the other side., Just a different shade. "

Dumb Montanan wrote on Jan 16, 2008 7:50 PM:

" To Free Advice:

If only more people would live in their means we wouldn't be in the current mess. The middle class doesn't mean what it used to. When does it mean a 5 bedroom house, 2 brand new cars in the driveway, big screen tv's, and 2 or more vacations a year? What does the middle class have that the rich people don't? They have more money, but tell me something that you need to have to survive? If you'd stop spending so much, and save some you'd be off a lot better. Not to mention a recession is coming. Spend wiser. "

To Free Advice wrote on Jan 16, 2008 3:44 PM:

" Thank goodness your advice is free because it's horrible. The fact that you have more money now is because you made horrible financial decisions earlier in life. It's that simple. Just think how far ahead you would be if you lived below your means while working in Minneapolis. "

Allen wrote on Jan 16, 2008 3:34 PM:

" Yeah, time.

HE was a walking talking entity then.

Cast off your possessions and follow me down the road, over the hill, and to the next town.

This is the kind of "interpretation" that has lead you astray from his teachings and placed you into in a position of interpreting something that has been translated and retranslated a number of times.

OK, I am done with you. You feel free to practice your faith as you wish, and unless you are willing to be called a non-christian, I assume you will be walking naked on your way to the homeless shelter this evening. "

economic depression wrote on Jan 16, 2008 3:20 PM:

" Bismarck is booming right now, due to the service industry. If, as some economists are predicting, we (the US) spiral into a depression, restaurants and specialty stores will be the first to close. There goes most of the employment in Bismarck! We need to find a more stable way of building Bismarck's economy. Low-paying service jobs are not it. "

Gnostic Christian wrote on Jan 16, 2008 3:11 PM:

" To Allen: "Cast off your material possessions and follow me." No confusion about Jesus's teachings there. Something you don't get about that statement? "

Free advice wrote on Jan 16, 2008 2:56 PM:

" To "Overworked and Underpaid" - I do understand your frustration but would offer a few words of advice as one who has "been there and done that". I lived and worked in Mpls for 10 years - I was very well paid and had a big fancy house, drove a new snazzy car every 2-3 years, had lot's of toys and went out and played alot. That big, fancy house had a big, fancy mortgage and big upkeep expenses - the snazzy new car had hefty car payments as did the toys. The only thing that happens when you have more money, is you spend more money, unless you are very disciplined. It's easy to get caught up in the "I want that (car, boat whatever) and I deserve it because I work so hard." For myself, the more money I made, the more I wanted and the harder I worked and somewhere along the line I forgot how to relax and enjoy life. I moved back to ND five years ago for family reasons - took a hefty pay cut...moved into a nice home (not nearly so fancy and large) in a small town outside of Bismarck. I have a nice (but not new) vehicle and a couple of toys...amazingly I have more money now than I did before. I'm more relaxed and no longer feel the need to compete with or impress my peers. Life in the slow lane is so much more enjoyable than life in the fast lane. To you youngsters out there reading this, I know this may not make sense - it probably wouldn't have to me when I was your age, either. All I'm saying is the grass may look alot greener on the other side, but it's not always what it seems. Be careful out there. "

Mary wrote on Jan 16, 2008 1:25 PM:

" ND pays low wages because our government officials like to pretend that we have so much else going for us - low crime, etc. They bring in more low-paying companies, particularly in retail, then spout about how we're growing. We've been "growing" for many years now, according to them; yet, population doesn't seem to reflect it. I wonder why. We also have an extremely high cost of living - I'm hearing more and more from people out of state as to what they're paying for housing, and it's amazing. Better paying jobs are always the key - they get people here, and get people to spend money. It's not rocket science, but as long as we buy into what we're being told, rather than looking into the facts, things will be the same. "

james crawford wrote on Jan 16, 2008 1:24 PM:

" I thought I would gather some data to see how the wages in North Dakota compare to the rest of the United States due to all the recent discussion in the state. The Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) publishes annual National Occupational and Wage Estimates on its website. The data is reported for the nation and each of the states. The most recent data was May 2006. Here is some of what I found.
800 occupations are listed for the nation and 535 of these are also found in sufficient numbers to be listed for North Dakota with 325,670 people employed.
First the good news, comparing these 535 occupations I found 86 or 16.1% paid more than the national average. These occupations employed 34,900 or 10.7% of employed North Dakotans. These employees earned and average of about $3,650 or 8.3% more than the national average wage.
Now the other side of the employment picture is that 449 of the 535 occupations or 83.9% pay less than the national average. These occupations employed 290,770 or 89.3% of North Dakotans. These North Dakotans earned an average of about $7,875 or 20.3% less than the national average. 70 occupations pay less than 5% below the national average, but 130 occupation or 24.3% pay 25% less and 23 of these pay 50% less than the national average.
North Dakota educational administrators at the postsecondary level are paid about $11,000 less than there national counterparts. North Dakota teachers at the postsecondary level receive about $14,600 less than the national average.
You need not look any further then your wallet if you want to know why the young leave the state. "

Allen wrote on Jan 16, 2008 12:29 PM:

" To: To Allen

Gee I wish you would use a better name than just adding a "to" in front of mine.

More food for thought. Did you ever think that perhaps your lessons in Christ's teachings have been wrong?

Lots of "interpretations" of Christianity out there. I kind of prefer to not read into statements like "blessed are the poor" as suggesting that I need to be poor. It only says that the poor should be blessed. Nothing more, nothing less.

"

ND for sale wrote on Jan 16, 2008 11:17 AM:

" My father and mother are 65 and make 37k together a year in central ND. They both drive 30 miles to work and will retire this year. They are fortunate that they own land to rent, like many others in the community. I visited this fall and found the restaurant closed and another convenience store/gas station closing this winter. I have one sibling that lives near my parents and earns 20k per year and will inherit 160 acres. The remaining five of us are spread throughout the U.S. and each are willed 160 acres. Yes, quite a few millionaires in ND on paper, but what happens in the next 20 years when a lot of the land is either purchased or inherited out of state? Where are all these dream jobs to lure us back when professors are paid 38k a year? "

Dave wrote on Jan 16, 2008 10:57 AM:

" To Overworked and Underpaid, I'm just curious, what degree did you earn from UND? I assume it's an advanced degree.

"

Econ 101 wrote on Jan 16, 2008 10:30 AM:

" Simply legislating pay increases is not the long-term solution. There must be an increase in the demand for the skills that a particular class of workers have. When businesses must compete for workers, they raise salaries and benefits to lure in workers or else they do not get those workers. Competition works. It always has. Are there any restaurants in Bismarck that still pay minimum wage? If so, how do they keep their employees? "

Overworked and Underpaid in ND wrote on Jan 16, 2008 9:58 AM:

" I just graduated from UND in May of 07. I chose to stay in ND and with that I chose a lower paying job. I am earning about $45K a year in my position which is on the high end of my classmates who stuck around the area. Other classmates who moved to the Minneapolis area are earning at least double, other are earing 130K a year. I would like to think that I live fairly modestly, I don't have a new car to make payments on, live in a smaller apartment that is in the middle area for rent in my town, don't go out to eat, to the bars, etc. I do have student loan payments, rent and utility payments, and my other living expenses, while trying to save up enough money to make a down payment on a house in a couple years. It's not an easy thing to do. I am starting to think I made the wrong choice by staying in ND. Others that left are enjoying many social activities, new toys etc., and they are able to save more money than I am. I wonder how long it will take ND to realize that if they want to get off the list for most outmigration it's time to start paying some decent wages. "

Been Here Awhile wrote on Jan 16, 2008 7:55 AM:

" To 'Allen' - My point whether it be for schools or counties is that there are potential economies of scale in reducing duplicate equipment, facilites and personnel. When those costs are removed the money can be used for things like higher wages or, on the other side of the coin, reduced taxes and fees. Could ND work well with 25 counties instead of 53? Could ND work well with 6 public colleges or universities instead of 11? But that would mean loss of jobs to some people and loss of trickle through revenue to some communities. Ouch! It's a tough issue and I suppose a person's view of it might depend on where their paycheck comes from. The legislators I talk to are very aware of both sides of that issue. A small state like ND begs for consolidation of services but there are some very personal and sensitive issues involved. I can understand both sides of the argument. "

To Allen wrote on Jan 16, 2008 7:52 AM:

" Ever consider that whoever taught you Christianity got it wrong?? Just food for thought. "

Halo wrote on Jan 16, 2008 1:23 AM:

" The whole pay scale in ND need to be overhauled. I to returned to ND after several successful years as a retail manager in a southern state. There they paid decent, here 10,000 a year less for basically the same job. Ouch! is what I say. Since I am now a parent, I too would like to raise my daughter the way I was...oh wait I am....if I remember correctly my parents struggled when I was little and I am sure I make more then my mom did when I was growing up. "

Work,work,work wrote on Jan 16, 2008 12:25 AM:

" I make more money than that as a medical transcriptionist! Geez! "

trouble wrote on Jan 15, 2008 10:42 PM:

" I am not worried there are plenty of good paying jobs at WSI ! "

Allen wrote on Jan 15, 2008 10:24 PM:

" To:Been here awhile,

Much of our state legislature is very against state supported schools. You would hear the same if we had 2 schools. Note their last ten years (or so) of continuous whittling away at support of the universities. It has been horrendous and is also the largest reason behind ND's double digit inflation in the cost of getting a college degree.

We all benefit by having educated people around us. Perhaps some day our state legislature won't be so worried about growing hemp and will actually be worried about the state of ND. May take the electing of a few more college graduates first though.

As for the number of counties? Ehh, don't think realigning the state would really save much in the form of state tax money. It costs the same to repave a highway regardless if it is 2 counties long or 20 counties long if the total miles are the same. Some taxes (not all) have always been a form of wealth redistribution. Generally though it is the social programs that are responsible for this. The infrastructure programs are much different. "

Allen wrote on Jan 15, 2008 10:12 PM:

" To: To Allen.

So you are saying that a Christian (of which I consider myself to be one) should be a person of no wealth.

Ahh, never mind. Only thing worse than discussing politics on the web is discussing religion. Feel free to practice Christianity as you see fit and I will practice it as I was taught.

"

Scott in SF wrote on Jan 15, 2008 8:26 PM:

" Go west young man, haven't you been told. California's full of wiskey women and gold ! "

Dumb Montanan wrote on Jan 15, 2008 5:33 PM:

" To Economic Conservative:

No it didn't cost me $200,000 for my education. What I was referring to when I said "You get what you paid for" is that they want a math teacher with a doctorate(preferred) for $38,0000. I doubt any doctorate math teacher is going to apply for that job. They are going to get a teacher who is worth (relatively speaking) $38,000. Your education is only as good as your teacher. "

Economic Conservative wrote on Jan 15, 2008 5:26 PM:

" To Dumb Montanan: I love the simplicity of your common sense economics. It is right on the money but it didn't cost 200K for the education, did it? Thanks for being on the mark and making me smile. "

Dumb Montanan wrote on Jan 15, 2008 4:06 PM:

" To B in M:

You said: "If that truck driver for DOT or the county gets a raise, it is only a matter of time until the driver for a local construction company gets a raise, etc., etc."

Explain that to me because I guess I don't understand economics. The state gives a raise to a state truck driver. That helps me out how? The State isn't hiring any more truck drivers, the demand for truck drivers didn't increase, and the private sector didn't change. The private truck company doesn't have to increase pay because they don't have to worry about losing any of their drivers. You will have more people wanting to work for the state, but if there is no room for them then they have to stay in the private sector at the pay they have now. What will happen is my taxes will increase to pay for their pay increase. What am I missing? "

Dumb Montanan wrote on Jan 15, 2008 3:55 PM:

" Tribune you wrote (url is http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles/2007/10/19/news/state/141173.txt):

The plan sets the range of college presidents' salaries from $275,000 to $325,000 at North Dakota State University and the University of North Dakota; from $165,000 to $195,000 at Minot State University; from $150,000 to $185,000 at other four-year schools; and from $130,000 to $165,000 at two-year colleges.

So Ellen Chaffee makes $150,000 to $165,000 per year as President. My question is the President is to make sure the school runs smoothly and what not, but the people who ACTUALLY teach get paid crap. You get what you pay for. If you complain about less people going to your university maybe you should take a pay cut because obviously you aren't doing something right. Then take that money and invest it into your teachers, and when you offer a GOOD education maybe people will come back. Thank God Mayville and VC split up. Just my opinion though. "

B in M wrote on Jan 15, 2008 3:29 PM:

" To Been Here a While - Dont forget to ask that legislator what he/she is doing to increase the wages in ND. Legislators need to increase the wages that the have control over in both the public and private sectors. "

B in M wrote on Jan 15, 2008 3:23 PM:

" It is not just teachers, ND is low in just about everything. You name it, nurses, service jobs, state employees, law enforcement, etc. ND is at the bottom. One thing that needs to happen is people need to stop complaining whenever someone else gets/wants a raise. If everyone else gets more money, sooner or later it will trickle down to you. Support the minimum wage increase. When Melroe workers go on strike, support them. Tell your state legislators to give public sector employees a raise. Same goes for teachers and city/county workers. If that truck driver for DOT or the county gets a raise, it is only a matter of time until the driver for a local construction company gets a raise, etc., etc.

"

Been Here Awhile wrote on Jan 15, 2008 2:24 PM:

" Catch a ND legislator when you can talk to him or her off the record and they will almost always say that ND has too many colleges and universities (11) and too many counties (53) for a state of 650,000 people that is 300 by 200 miles in size . But they'll also tell you those schools and counties are major employers and that's why there isn't likely to be any changes. It's sort of a form of redistributing tax and fee money out to the communities in the form of payroll. "

keeo wrote on Jan 15, 2008 2:15 PM:

" Students should demand that there college teacher is a full time teacher, not an adjunct. "

BabyT wrote on Jan 15, 2008 2:13 PM:

" North Dakota does NOT have more millionaires per capita then any other state, we have more people below the poverty line then any other though. The millionaires story was a local urban legend that has been passed down, New Jersey has the highest currently, followed by New York and California. (Per a recent article for Forbes magazine.) "

To Allen wrote on Jan 15, 2008 1:54 PM:

" You question whether everyone should lead a minimalist lifestyle. If you believe in Christ - and I'm not saying you have to - then you'd understand that's how Jesus wants us to live on this earth. "

Conservative wrote on Jan 15, 2008 1:30 PM:

" North Dakota has a serious problem brewing. We are a low wage state who is going to have a massive amount of employees retiring soon. How does the state plan on filling these jobs. No one from out of state will be attracted to positions that require a huge pay cut for a similiar position they may already hold. I can attest to that, because my wife and I both took huge pay cuts to move back to raise our family here. But after 2 1/2 years in the Bismarck area, seeing housing costs that are not terribly lower than larger midwest cities, and property taxes that are higher, we are now looking to relocate to the Minneapolis area. ND is going to be in serious trouble in 5-10 years when they have a boat load of jobs that won't be filled. "

rusty9 wrote on Jan 15, 2008 12:55 PM:

" Look to see what the top 10 - 15 administrators get on each state campus; then you will see why they do not have any money to pay the teachers. The so called "top" people on each campus get "national average" wages , while everybodye else (teachers to janitors) recieve "state" averages. Look to see what the 'top dogs' in the State Board Office in Bismarck are getting for wages too. We need to make some big changes in Higher Education in North Dakota! "

Econ 101 wrote on Jan 15, 2008 12:51 PM:

" The reason ND has low-paying positions is because someone always accepts the job for that salary. Simple supply and demand theory says that the offered salary is sufficient until the job goes unfilled. If that happens – guess what? They bump the salary up until they finally get a taker unless they want to carry an open position forever. Even in the traditional minimum wage fats food areas, increasing demand for workers has pushed the salaries and benefits upward. Fast food places are finding that they must COMPETE for workers.

The real answer to the low-salary problem is economic growth and competition for the best workers.
"

Allen wrote on Jan 15, 2008 12:46 PM:

" Chavez,

Not exactly a great amount of foresight goes into that line of thinking, and you aren't the first to propose it.

Removing those peripheral schools (Williston, VC, etc) really wouldn't save as much money as one might think when you sit down and really take a look at the numbers. That and many of those schools are centered around unique programs. There isn't an automotive program at UND or NDSU, where would you propose training auto mechanics, or physical therapy assistants?

Secondly, these universities offer at least SOME degree of continuing education for adults already in the workforce. There are a lot of students at these peripheral schools that live and work full time in those communities and take continuing education for personal and professional advancement. All that goes away with the schools.

Thirdly, ND is a net importer of students. The money these students bring in to the local community is not trivial. Something like $12-15k per year last I read. It is actually short-sighted to close these schools.

To a: So you work for the only employer in town with a 100% healthcare plan, I somehow suspected so. To each his own, I really like being able to take my kids hunting, fishing, movies, bowling, occassional Cold Stone Creamery visit, etc. And for that I do need a little more coinage. I don't need to make $250k either, but it is unreasonable to think that just because you are happy with your minimalist lifestyle that others should follow in your steps. I not that long ago worked with a fella very similar to you. They were satisfied, and so long as you are happy with everything then more power to you. "

Question wrote on Jan 15, 2008 11:55 AM:

" For those posting with salaries under $38,000 per year and for the one who posted $6.25 per hour, did you / they receive any assistance from Social Service agencies like fuel assistance? If so, then, sorry - but you're not making it on that salary - needing assistance with fuel doesn't count. If you're renting and heating comes with rent, then good for you. If you're renting and it doesn't - it can get expensive. In my county of less than 3000 people, the Social Services subsidies for things like fuel assistance cost $380,000 in 2006 due to low wages. That's not making a person independent and self-sufficient. Just curious. "

Chavez wrote on Jan 15, 2008 11:49 AM:

" Sadly, this is true across the state and as someone else has noted, most North Dakotans couldn't care less. I would suggest something, however, provided the money saved be spent on raising professors' salaries: North Dakota has 11 schools of higher education in a state of perahps 650,000. That is far too many. If we close the colleges in Williston, Bottineau, Lake Region in Devils Lake, Mayville, Valley City State (sorry, Ellen), and the State School of Science in Wahpeton, maybe we could better provide for the bigger schools in terms of salaries and, buildings, and equipment. I realize that this may take some amending of the state constitution, as some schools are named there, but it would make a great deal more sense than continuing all eleven of these institutions. On the other hand, given the nature of the thieves in the State Legislature, they would simply squirrel the saved money away in the name of conservative politics and think they are doing the state a service. "

Former Nodaker wrote on Jan 15, 2008 11:42 AM:

" Regarding the post talking about the advertisement for a computer person with 7 years of experience in the field and should have a masters for 28K... I moved from ND to Minneapolis over 10 years ago, and was hired with a 2 year computer science degree and no experience for $33,000 a year. I now make almost 3X that amount. I will have enough money to retire some day. I would not if I stayed in ND. Minneapolis is full of hard working Nodakers who are getting paid what they are worth in the job market. "

PO3toCheck the Facts wrote on Jan 15, 2008 11:18 AM:

" Many many years ago there was a story in a major east coast paper listing North Dakota as number one in millionaires per 100,000 population. Long before crop prices and land prices came up. "

a wrote on Jan 15, 2008 11:13 AM:

" To Allen: Your comedy is cute. First of all, I would like to say that I am putting money away for retirement, have fully funded health insurance through my employer, have reliable transportation, and feed my children quality home-cooked food (we raise a garden). Not everyone gets a college education just to find a high-paying job. For me and my wife, a college education is an end in and of itself, not a means by which I rely on to land a job. And I'm most proud of the fact that my wife and I spend more time with our kids than a large majority of other parents. In the end, this is more meaningful to me (and our children) than a big fat job and lots of toys. "

Adjunct wrote on Jan 15, 2008 10:36 AM:

" To scoob - I know what you mean about adjunct faculty. My experience is it's fine to do if you are looking for a way to spend some time and enjoy it but the money works out to about minimum wage for someone who really puts their all into it. A highly seasoned professional could take on 5 university classes as an adjunct, which would be a fulltime-plus job, and make less than $20,000 a year with NO benefits at all. The school charges the student the same price per credit hour no matter who is teaching the course. I don't get it. "

Check the Facts wrote on Jan 15, 2008 10:30 AM:

" The reason ND has so many millionaires per pop. is largely because of the rising value of farm land. I think people in ND are underpaid, too, but let's get the facts straight. "

scoob wrote on Jan 15, 2008 10:25 AM:

" To Whoa: They shouldn't - all educators and staff should be paid at levels that allow for meeting the basics of living in this world........just as does everyone else in their professions........but to deny that these salaries are anything but "at the bottom" and not to do anything about it is ledicrous.

What Higher Ed has done is turn to rely on Adjunct faculty - thus eliminating the need to offer equitable salaries, benefits, etc. They have taken those saved $$$ and pumped them into special interests within each of their campuses - causing in-fighten within campuses; such as it exists with the university system and it's 11 campuses. Time to bring in some "real world business" approaches to funding and operating HE in ND.....and not continue to hide behind hiring adjuncts and not develop the campuses for long term sustainability. No need to try and attract new faculty to ND if your going to rely on the nepitistic adjunct approach to staffing and short-changing the student needs.

And, lest we forget - let's add more fees and tution cost on to the student, because we dont sit down and get the solution figured out.....pitiful!! "

to whoa wrote on Jan 15, 2008 10:12 AM:

" Do your K-12 teachers have to have a doctorate to teach their grade? I think the point is that if a company requires or prefers someone who put many tens of thousands of dollars into first a bachelor's degree, then master's AND doctorate, then that company ought to be offering a lot more tens of thousands of dollars to attract and keep such a qualified person. "

whoa wrote on Jan 15, 2008 9:56 AM:

" Why should a university teacher get more than our k-12 teachers? Just had to ask. "

PO3 wrote on Jan 15, 2008 9:49 AM:

" More millionaires per 100,000 people in North Dakota then any other state. They didn't become millionaires by paying their help a fair wage. Wake up and smell the roses, thats how it is here. "

scoob wrote on Jan 15, 2008 9:22 AM:

" To Dave and Ellen Chaffee,

Thanks Dave for your article and thoughts. There are thousands of ND'rs who know this reality all too well........it's been ongoing for years and won't change until we change the minds of or persons who represent the people of this state - on an equal playing field. Let's take the POLITICS out of Higher Education and began to truly build a future for our children and the people of North Dakota.

And yes, Dr. Chaffee - thank you for your comments - which are true to the task.....we need knew people who have the vision to make this happen and who collectively understand the ramifications of not bringing equity to faculty and staff of our higher education institutions. Let's not forget those who also help our campuses succeed in meeting the needs of our students and the future of the state of North Dakota.

"

Allen wrote on Jan 15, 2008 9:22 AM:

" To a.

Serously, you are a pair of college educated parents and pull in $22.8k a year and can live off of that?

I commend you for choosing to live in a tent and ride your donkey to work each morning, but that is poverty level living that would force my wife and I to use peat moss and a loin cloth for diapers on our 2 kids and taking full advantage of WIC and food stamps.

BTW, I don't recall anyone ever saying they are going to college so they can live on the basic necessities. It's about going for that brass ring and making something of yourself and living a comfortable life.

Like I said, I commend you and your wife for doing this, but I do not understand how you are possibly meeting the bare necessities when you include putting money away for retirement (this is a necessity in today's world), health care insurance, buying a stick and brick home for your family, providing quality food (not the cheap chicken and fish sticks crap, I'm talking about fresh fruit and veggies), having dependable transportation. In all honesty, I wish you the best of luck. "

sorry wrote on Jan 15, 2008 9:10 AM:

" I rasied two kids and my wife stayed at tome on 6.25 an hour for eight years. I was a cerifited welder. What we did not have in money we made for in home life. Money is not everything. "

jg wrote on Jan 15, 2008 8:32 AM:

" It is shameful that these institutions only pay t hese wages. I hear there is alot of pride in North Dakota. I don't see it. The businesses and institutions don't show pride in what they pay their employees and where is our pride by accepting it. It is not cheap to live in Bismarck but the pay does not come close to other places. In a recent article it shows North Dakota 2nd in the nation for the most people leaving the state. Michigan is No. 1 however, they are having a major recession related to the car industry and businesses outsourcing to pay low (China or Mexico) wages. What is North Dakkota's problem that we are second in causing people to leave the state? What I hear the most is the wages and cost of living. Will tihs ever change? "

a wrote on Jan 15, 2008 8:26 AM:

" Dear Dave,

My wife and I have two young children. She stays at home with them, and I make only about 60% of what that professor position pays. Granted, I don't have a doctorate, but both my wife and I have bachelor degrees and have a decent amount of student loans. Of course, we don't live "high off the hog", but we are comfortable. Too many folks confuse "needs" and "wants" these days. "

Allen wrote on Jan 15, 2008 8:24 AM:

" P.S. It was really nice to see the state give the UND and NDSU presidents a substantial pay raise along with new accomodations. Of all the people that didn't need a raise, the highest paid people on campus were likely in less need. Sure, a university needs quality leadership, but it also needs to recognize that the universities aren't worth the ground they are built on without quality faculty.

Sorry, this is a raw nerve for me............ "

kw wrote on Jan 15, 2008 8:24 AM:

" no kidding! if the other costs were in line with this it would be one thing but cost of living and taxes are just as high here as anywhere else~ time to pay accordingly if we want the young people to stay "

Ellen Chaffee wrote on Jan 15, 2008 8:19 AM:

" Thanks for your support, Dave. I am the president of VCSU. The ND University System campuses are funded, on average, at just over half the rate of similar institutions in other states. Our professors' salaries are dead last in the nation. This has gone on so long that many seem to think it's OK. It is not. It is a reality that undermines the future of our entire state. The state can well afford to change that reality dramatically in the next legislative session. If you care about North Dakota's future, vote accordingly in the fall. Thanks again. "

Allen wrote on Jan 15, 2008 8:11 AM:

" And that's why I left UND.

The pay at our universities is absolutely pathetic. I now work 20 hours a week less and make 40% more than while a researcher/lecturer at UND. And that was even with me being responsible for bringing in research money to cover 60% of my salary!

I know several faculty that love what they do, but in the long term they are looking at moving on to other positions that allow them to own a home. Awful tough to pay off 9-10 years of college and buy a house on $38k. "

One for the Road wrote on Jan 15, 2008 7:28 AM:

" Dave and the funny thing is.. they will get somebody after a long while.. and they will get a couple years under the belt and LEAVE. And this hapens in all of the colleges in ND. I use to work at UND. Same thing there. I saw a position at NDSU in the Fargo Forum a while back looking for a computer person with 7 years of experience in the field and should have a masters for 28K! But I'm not going knock the colleges too much because they are limited in what they can do be the Legislature sets all the salary ranges. "

hhhhhhhhmmmmmmm wrote on Jan 15, 2008 7:02 AM:

" omg....someone gets it....living in nd is NOT cheap...I live in Dix...my son pays $475 for an apt that is small and doesnt even have room for kitchen table..a friend has just had her rent raised to $900 a month for something that needs major work.. but she was told it could be rented for 1200 a mo to oilworkers...the house is VERY old...so she can pay or move...our people are being taken for a ride because a few make big wages..but not every one works the oilfield..a large group still work good old nd minimum wages cuz thats what there is...wonder if nd will ever join the real world, pay real wages, so we can have the quality of life here that they try to convince everyone the living here PROVIDES "? food , gas, diesel..medical..all are becoming luxuries..as is the stay at home mom...and its only getting worse..the majority of ndakotans are barely getting by...38000 for a prfessor? the school needs to be embarrased to even put that ad out..especially with the big wages the administrators of our higher ed schools...unreal "

Dave wrote on Jan 15, 2008 6:27 AM:

" But Dave, the cost of living is SO low here. That's the argument people will use anyway. I have to agree 100% with you. "

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