Bismarck, North Dakota News

" To Too Late: It may not be damaging to have them sit there in the pew and just move on with life. What is damaging however is telling them they are wrong and going to hell for not believing in the christian "God." What else is wrong is restricting them from their own spiritual beliefs. You are almost brainwashed to become Christian. How does that help make someone responsible? Forcing religion onto someone is only going to make them feel helpless and belittled, it isn't going to help them overcome their addictions and behaviors.

Try walking in their shoes before you say something inconsiderate. "

" Too Late: You are just wrong, wrong, wrong on SO many levels. "

" $150,000.00 that was specifrically authorized by the State legislature after a huge stump by the Hoeven's both John and Mikey. Judging from the State's response to the Law suit, maybe FFRF should add this specific appropriation by the legislature to the law suit. It is clearly a violation of the Establishment Clause. "

" this situation is no different then Teen Challenge recieving 150,000 from the state and they are faith based, bible study, church, church choir etc and if you don' t go along you are punished. They do not use any program such as AA,NA etc just bible thumping. sorry but even though i believe in a higher power why should i be forced to follow their teachings? oh and by the way they believe tht if you follow their teachings you are cured you are no longer an addict. some treatment program our tax dollars are paying for! "

" I love how since we are "troubled youth" we need to attend church. However, just because we are not "Christian" does not mean we have our own religions or beliefs.

To be honest, if you were having a hard time in your life and you were placed in a facility, away from your home, friends, family, your belongings and you bring something of your religion with you such as a book, or necklace, or poem and it was taken away would you not be upset? If you were told you were not allowed to speak of your religion or to state you don't believe in God without losing points, would you not feel constricted and helpless?

Troubled youth need help, understanding, and acceptance, not forced religion.

The Youth Correctional Center has a wonderful way of dealing with the religion issue. You can go to church, but if you don't, you can sit in your room during church time. They do not punish you or look down on you for your decision when it comes to religion.

Many troubled youth need help with decision making, but religion is not one of those. "

" To Hope: what you state is just what this law suit is about. It's about allowing choices for the children. DBGR - view their website - clearly states that only their religious programming is allowed at the facility. No other is allowed. The children are forced to attend this programming or they are punished. The lawsuit is about allowing the children and their respective families the choice of what religion (if any) their children will attend. It is about the freedom to choose - not to have taxpayer dollars spent to support only the Lutheran Church. It is also about stopping the punishment of the children and families that wish to choose an alternate form of worship, belief, and/or spirituality. At DBGR there is no choice allowed - it's the Lutheran Church solely - no choices. "

" The Church doesn't want you thinking for yourself. That's why they scare you with stories about Jesus comin' back to git ya! WE are to judge things for ourselves, like Christ did. The Church can't allow us to understand that though, because that takes them out of the equation. Yes, it's true you find God through Christ, but not in the way the Christian Church says. They just don't want to become obsolete. Ever notice, there is something slightly shifty about all Lutheran pastors? It's because they are hiding the truth about Christ. "

" I was raised missouri synod lutheran. I was taught that the only way to get to heaven was to go to Lutheran church on Sunday, Tithe, and ask for forgiveness under the Grace of the Lutheran God. I was also taught that if you don't believe in the Lutheran God you would go to hell. I never understood and still don't understand why someone like Mother Theresa (who is catholic) will go to hell because she doesn't believe in the Lutheran God. I even wrote a paper on it during our "catechism" classes that we had to attend before we could be confirmed. The church had no answer for that other than you only get to heaven thru the Lutheran God, going to church on Sundays, and tithing. These are the biggest reasons why I do not attend the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church. My God encompasses all people - not just Lutherans and is kind not condemning and loving not harsh. The Missouri Synod Lutheran God is too cruel and harsh for me. "

" I believe that these youth do need to attend church. I think volunteeers from different religions should be there to represent their religion for those who need them. Catholics for Catholics, Lutherans for Lutherans, etc.. Let the youth decide which religion they will participate with on Sundays. These kids need to know there is forgiveness and that you do have a second chance. To argue about God is ridiculous. How many of you voicing your opinions have done anything to help the youth. You are so busy trying to bash each other that you are missing the point. Youth. These kids have lost their sense of direction and need guidance to the road back. Life is all about FAITH (believing in what we don't see). At least someone was trying. Things aren' t right but it can easily be fixed. BELIEVE!! "

" To Front Row Seat: try checking out the Lutheran Church website. Or better yet, try one of the religious comparison sites. What the Lutheran Chuch has on it's site is what I reference, along with what my wife, a former Lutheran has clued me in on. Perhaps you are not as fanatical as some, but the doctrines of the Luthran faith are easy to find. Your faith scares me. "

" Chavez

Why do you have so much hate? Lenin didn't think emotions such as hate were helpful to the cause. "

" Some of the most recent comments here questioning what Lutherans teach or don't teach, or what commandments you can break under their belief system is proof positive that religion should have no part in the kid's treatment. Just read them: they are beginning to sound like a theological debate about what is the "right" religion, whose version of Christianity is the "right" one and so on, and is stellar proof why an agency receiving tax money should be neutral about religion.

Far too often the well-meaning conservative Christian is so sure that he/she knows the right way to God that they cannot and will not see any other position. As a result, doesn't it simply make sense to keep religoin out of this treatment program and have the kids learn about religion from their parents or church of their choice? In any event, religion should be kept OUT of this agency IF they are receiving taxpayer funding. Then again, there is another answer: END TAXPAYER SUPPORT TO THIS AGENCY. Then they can teach whatever they want.

It is frightening just how much in danger the separation of church and state is in the United States. The moralizers, the self-righteous, and even the well-meaning surely must see that it is best to keep religious teachings apart from agencies meant to benefit the state as a whole, regardless of their religious beliefs. However, having said that, we must also be aware that the Christian Right--whether Protestant or Catholic--will not stop until, as they see it, they have "Returned the Nation to Christ." When and if that happens, we will see what it is to have a Christian Taliban here in the US. "

" To Avid Reader: Are you crazy? I have been a church attending Lutheran for 34 years and have never been taught any of the things you said are part of the Lutheran doctrine. Certainly I, like every other human being, breaks the 10 commandments from time to time - it's called humanity. And that is why God sent us Jesus - to save us from our sins. Lutheranism does not advocate tithing for salvation; it advocates bringing your sins to Jesus and doing the best you can to live in the ways of God while teaching others about God7. I would suggest you head to church for an education for you have trully spoken out of turn here. "

" According to the Lutheran's you can break the commandments all you want as long as you tithe every Sunday and ask the Lutheran God for forgiveness. They further teach that if you don't have the Lutheran God you can't get to heaven and free will, a founding principal of the United States, can only be used for evil purposes. Now that is one heck of a thing to be teaching vulnerable at risk kids. Not to mention that DBGR houses registered sex offenders with sexually abused kids and has a policy not to let the other kids or parents know. Yep, the Lutheran teaching are what every at risk kid needs to learn. "

" It shouldn't matter if anyone is held accountable, as we are all saved anyway, via God's grace. Or, is there more to the story of salvation that the Lutherans don't want us to know? "

" Well Too Late, Two wrongs don't make a right. Yes the kids have problems. They need a stable and strict environment. And sense it is our government sending them there, They should not be forcing religious beliefs on them for that is against our governments policy. That is the law of the land. You need to learn to accept it, even if you don't like it. "

" This is just another example of rights over accountability. If these children were not being delinquent, they would not be put in placement. Granted, their lives may be in turmoil due to parental problems, but the kids are still responsible for the way in which they behave. If they wish to practice religion as they choose, they should start being responsible. I don't believe going to church once a week is going to damage them...just sit in the pew, don't listen and be quiet. You aren't required to participate. The more "rights" have been pushed in history, the more crime has increased and morals have decreased. Doesn't anyone else see this connection? "

" To eddifiedtavous and josh; I would like an opportunity to speak with you about your experiences at DBGR. I am one of the plaintiffs in this suit and also the ExecutiveDirector of the North Dakota Coalition for CPS and Foster Care Reform. Please feel free to email me with contact info if you are willing to talk to me:
ndccpsfcr@yahoo.com. To you PO3 not all the plaintiffs are athiests in this suit. Some of us are of a faith that is other that the self proclaimed one true religion, Lutheran. We have rights to beleive as we wish. "

" As a former resident of DBR back in the mid nineties I do remember you had to go to church. If you didn't you would get written up and put on restrictions. So they did force religion on you. I do understand its an institution but I do not believe that forcing religion on someone is a good way to showcase it, even if you are at the institution for punishment. "

" There is a right kind of spirituality and a wrong kind of spirituality. The ELCA and the Missouri Synod are forcing the WRONG kind of hateful, superstitious 'spirituality' on the kids at DBGR. If this were a Hindu operation, your type would have a crap fit. "

" Secular progressives don't want those children indoctrinated with spirtuality of any kind, learn to live with it. "

" I am so sorry for your experience. This is just what is being fought against in the lawsuit. I strongly encourage you to contact the Freedom From Religion Foundation. Let them know who you are. You may be able to join this lawsuit - since you are an injured party - and maybe stop this type of punishment and brainwashing from occurring to other young people coming up behind you. "

" As a past resident at the Boy's Ranch in Minot, I feel that they did indeed nearly force religion on their residents. I was not Christian when placed in the facility and if I refused to go to Sunday church or participate in Christian activities I was punished and lost points on my treatment plan.

I was not there for religion issues. I was there for family issues within the home and stress management. No person should be forced to participate in something they do not believe in. "

" I always thought God was in heaven and Jesus Christ was a person who walked the earth. Did they have the same DNA or something? Does God even have DNA? Is Jesus just the reincarnation of Buddha? The Book of Genesis left this stuff out. "

" To Chavez and Rasmus: When you two respond to Christian issues, you both sound like a pair of "flat earth" religious thinkers. Instead of continually bashing evangelical, God-fearing, Bible believing Christians, why don't both of you hire some attorneys and plead you case against the one true God, Jesus Christ? Wait a minute! Hold on! A very bad idea since the both of you would not have a prayer!!! "

" To: Rasmus. Yes, it is the most dastardly of deeds the day a person becomes a hypocrite. There are so few of those people in the world they will be easy to find in a crowd. Afterall you yourself have done a fine job of pointing out a hypocritical person. Keep those senses sharp and the rest of the world up to speed on these tyrants. You=Patriot? Indeed! "

" Having the inside information that I do in this matter, I just wonder Rasmus, do the DBGR officials who claim the actions are not taking place really believ they can lie like this and then just ask and be forgiven at church on Sunday? You are so right, blatant lying by religous organizations is scarey "

" Chavez: Ever notice how the people claiming moral superiority through religion can tell the biggest lies without flinching? "

" Drop it: you utterly miss the point. It isn't whether or not the institutions in question are doing a good job, it is that they are using a specific religious viewpoint in their treatment of the young people under their care. If they received no tax-payer money, no one would complain.

Oh, and "In God We Trust" on money? It was placed on paper money only in 1957 during the Cold War years when some in the US thought it would be a good idea to have God on America's side against the "godless Communists." Prior to that, "In God we trust" appears only very sporadically over the course of American history. Same thing with "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance: it was not until 1954 (during the McCarthy witchhunts) that "under God" was placed in the pledge. Too often, those ignorant of church-state issues do not realize that America was founded as a secular nation with the intention of providing freedom of religion to all. Today, the "Christian Natin" types think that means they have the right to force their narrow-minded religion and revisionist view of history down the collective throats of America. And, when they are thwarted in their efforts, they whine about "persecution" from those dastardly secular humanists, liberals, liberal media, and other boogey-men they bray about. The true threat to freedom is from those who think they are doing God's will and are working to creat a Christian theocracy here in the United States. "

" I would think if in order to sue the Department, you have to be able to sue the Department Head. For they are the one's accountable and responsible for the departments spending. Just the thought of having to sue a code is stupid. A code can be challenged, not sued. Is this the type of Attorneys we have representing our state. They are just wasting court time. And trying to make the Judge make a political decision. Which it is not his job to do. This is sad. "

" So are you going to sue the U.S. governement for putting "In God we Trust" on our money? Can you people find anything better to complain and sue about? "

" Once again the reporter only got it half right. According to the brief filed with the Motion to Dismiss, the Counties are claiming they are only acting " within the Rules and Regulations of State of North Dakota's system". Sure sounds like another case of let's just point the finger, it's the states fault. When are we going to stop standing still for the corruption of our local and state government? "

" If Public money is being used to push religion than they should be prosecuted..if not then dismiss it.. some times people make things too complicated. "