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Would Latin Mass unite or divide?

 
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Jun 24, 2007 - 04:07:50 CDT
By KAREN HERZOG
Bismarck Tribune
For the last two decades, members of St. Michael's Traditional Catholic Church in Mandan have worshiped in the old way, to the commonly-called Latin Mass, conducted by traveling priests from St. Mary's, Kan., belonging to the Society of St. Pius X.

In 1998, Bishop Paul Zipfel of the Bismarck Catholic Diocese felt the need to issue a letter clarifying for Catholics in his diocese that the church "did not enjoy communion" with Rome.

For more than 40 years since the Second Vatican Council, popes have severely restricted the use of the Tridentine, or Latin Mass. And groups such as the Society of St. Pius X, formed in 1970 by a late archbishop, Marcel Lefebvre, have been divided from Rome over this issue and others, particularly ecumenism.

However, in the two years since Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger became Pope Benedict XVI, rumors from the Vatican have increased that he is planning to loosen restrictions on the Tridentine Mass, though under what conditions is unclear.

This has given hope to factions such as the St. Pius X Society, who regard the Tridentine Mass as a "treasure of the church," and have continuously campaigned for its more widespread use since the modernizations of Vatican II.

But it has also raised questions and concerns about the impact it might have within dioceses and on the mission field.

Unlike the current Mass, which people can see and hear in their own language, in the Tridentine, "everything was done with (the priest's) back to the people and in quiet. People didn't know what was being done," Zipfel said.

The Tridentine Mass was used for 400 years by Roman Catholic priests until the Second Vatican Council of 1962-65 during the papacy of Pope John XXIII, when Latin was replaced by the vernacular, or language of the people.

Zipfel was ordained a priest in 1961, so he conducted Mass in Latin for only a few years before Vatican II, he said.

The appeal of the Tridentine Mass to some is its "mysterious" nature, said Zipfel. People who long for it describe its "mystical, mysteriously beautiful" nature, and are drawn to it in the same way some are to Gregorian chant, he said.

There are pockets of people in the Bismarck Diocese, primarily older people, who have asked for the Tridentine Mass since he became bishop, he said. He has not given in to those requests, he said. One factor is that people want it on Sunday, and the diocese really doesn't have the priests to do it, he said. Priests attending seminaries after Vatican II would rarely have learned the Latin Mass, and some priests who do are becoming quite elderly.

And churches have even changed physically. Many now lack the back altar used in the Tridentine Mass, the bishop said.

The Tridentine is not "bad," but his concern as bishop is its potential for divisiveness or distraction, for stirring up conflicts within parishes between proponents of the Latin and the vernacular. How would the church welcome back groups such as the St. Pius X Society without also setting up these separations? he asks.

Zipfel's understanding of the rumors coming out of Rome is that there is a possibility that Pope Benedict XVI might allow any priest to make his own decision about whether to perform the Tridentine Mass. Since it's not appropriate for a priest to come into a diocese to conduct Mass without permission from the bishop, Zipfel said, questions emerge about the effect of this on bishops' authority within their dioceses.

The loosening of restrictions on the Latin Mass has been rumored for a long time, said the Rev. Paul Robinson of the Society of St. Pius X. Robinson flies to North Dakota every other weekend to conduct Tridentine Masses at St. Michael's and at a chapel in Dickinson.

The St. Pius X society currently has 475 priests internationally, with chapels in 60 countries, mainly France, Robinson said. In the U.S., the society has 50 to 60 priests and a seminary in Winona, Minn., he said.

Robinson said the society would welcome the Latin Mass with open arms.

"We've been working for this,"Robinson said. He said the St. Pius X group presented the pope last fall with 2.5 million rosaries said "to free" the traditional Mass.

But he's cautious; even if that happens, it remains to be seen under what terms and restrictions, he said.

"Already in 1984 John Paul II gave us an indult, permission, (for the Latin) with the permission of the local bishop. Very few bishops were willing," he said.

The Tridentine Mass is "a wonderful thing, the visible expression of what makes a Catholic a Catholic," Robinson said, but it's not everything the society is seeking from Rome. The other sticking point is ecumenism.

"The world today proclaims tolerance as the only truth ... where man is the determiner of right and wrong," Robinson said.

Ecumenism "pretend(s) we can get along perfectly because we share some little aspect of truth. Do we get along at all costs?

"The church is casting aside its identity as the church of Jesus Christ," Robinson said. "Until Rome comes back to the firm foundation of Catholic doctrine, there will still be difficulties."

The church is always hierarchical and the only justification for going against hierarchy is faith - faith must be placed above authority, Robinson said.

Archbishop Lefebvre, founder of the St. Pius X group, was eventually excommunicated because he would not accept the authority of the pope, Zipfel said. The status of the group is that it is not in union with Rome, he said.

The Mass is not the only conflict that separates them from Rome - the authority of the pope is a major issue, the bishop said. Another group of priests, the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter, does have permission to conduct the Tridentine Mass and is in union with Rome, having accepted the Holy Father as leader of the church, the bishop said.

Robinson says the relationship of Rome and the Pius X Society is complicated and depends on who you ask.

"Rome, cardinals, have consistently said we're not outside the church, rather on the fringes," he said.

From his knowledge of his diocese, Zipfel doesn't think fascination with the Tridentine Mass would last too long.

The pendulum in worship may have swung too far toward casualness in the 1960s, he said. He believes that if pastors are careful about upholding reverence, there might not be much call to return to the old form.

"I would not want to see people turn their backs on Vatican II," he said.

(Reach Karen Herzog at 250-8267 or karen.herzog@;bismarcktribune.com.)
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Would Latin Mass unite or divide?
Comments

New Age wrote on Sep 22, 2007 10:16 PM:

" RIP "

Ezra wrote on Sep 22, 2007 9:05 AM:

" Be sure to read todays editorial page. A letter by Ron Saeger, "Any Parallels with today?", points out what the real danger is posed by fundies. Anyone who helps stop the spread of this nonsense is a freedom fighter of the highest order. Read the letter to see why. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 20, 2007 9:43 PM:

" Sorry Grumper, the correct name of the book is "Wolf of the Deep" by Stephen Fox. Public Radio did a very nice review of the book, that is why I am reading it. Now if you will go back to my post, you will note, I specifically said the book is non-fiction. That means it is as historically accurate as records will allow. My whole point is that the Catholic Church did nothing to effectively oppose slavery in the south. If God is behind the Catholic Church, how did he fail to notify them of this evil? It seems very strange to me that people expect no more of God than what is popular at the time. It is very similiar to the Mormons discriminating against blacks and saying they were an inferior race up until the 1970s. History clearly shows that God always does what is popular. God seems very much affected by peer pressure as we would call it today. You still have not explained the Grumper. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 20, 2007 10:01 AM:

" Ezra; I see nothing on the internet called “Wolf of the Sea”. Perhaps you reversed a few words again. Why do you read fiction when there is so much real history available? So during the age of kings they all owned slaves? If you were here during our revolutionary war, to fight off our last king, you probably would have been a Tory. During our Civil War you probably would have been against that war. Much of Europe’s history is bad, however inspired by our Churches we have made things better. You are living in the past. In all of United States wars we have had friends or citizens who were Indians, Blacks, and even Catholics that have assisted us. Try to catch up to where we are now. "

ezra is confusing wrote on Sep 20, 2007 7:45 AM:

" Ezra, if catholics are Fundies as you call them, and you say fundies are responsible for Bush and iraq and all the other problems in the world, AND you say catholics all follow what the pope wants, then why exactly is it that the pope refused to meet with Condi Rice before her trip to the mideast? http://www.breitbart.com/ article.php?id= 070919165838.f0y81otc& show_article=1 It seems the pope, as I know he has always been, is also against us being in iraq. So then how can you say the catholics are part of the problem? The church and the pope dislike the war and aren't too fond of Bush or his administration. Hmmmmm. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 20, 2007 7:17 AM:

" I have just started to read a book called "Wolf of the Sea". It so happens the story is about a southern navel captain of ship, and also a Catholic. The Captain owned slaves, and so did his Catholic family. The story is not fiction. I find it strange that the good Church did not make it well known that you could not be a Catholic and own slaves. I fail to see how this could happen, if the Pope did not endorse slavery. This is a classic example of religion endorsing evil. It would have been very simple for the Pope to say anyone who owns slaves could not be a member of the church, however it would have lost revenue. Spin this one Grumper. I know your answer, "Well everyone did it". "

Ezra wrote on Sep 20, 2007 6:56 AM:

" History is replete with evil done in the name of religion. When you say "If I am wrong", no harm done. The harm has already been done, and will continue to be done as one religion fights another religion, as young girls are raped by fundamentalist Mormons, and as people are killed by AIDs because the Catholic Church prohibits the use of condoms. My willingness to admit that I don't know if God exist hurts no one. As far as doing good goes for improving life on our planet I have done many good deeds to help my fellow man I am proud of. I did not need anyone to trick me into doing good. It feels right, and I am happy to help other when I can. If you need the threat of hell, and the promise of heaven to do good, then you have my sympathy. I did not waste a bunch of time or money on religion, rather I put both to work helping people directly. Your waste of time and effort is sad, and it is sadder yet that there are thousands more like you. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 19, 2007 11:07 PM:

" To Ezra, or Dear Grumper or whoever. You are on the extreme left using any reason to criticize Republicans or Christians. At no time do I want to give you any aid or comfort. You justify your logic using the wrong reasons. However I must say that I will probably not be voting again until Campeon and Ramos are released and restitution made. I will also remain unhappy with the Iraq war because of the rules of engagement. They use suicide bombers, torture, murder without trial, hide behind civilians and any other despicable method. Our soldiers can basically shoot back after being shot at. You and I are also on different sides on most religious subjects. You believe every Christian is some kind of hypnotized robot and I believe we have freedom of choice where we put our "faith". If I am wrong I will still be trying to make the world a better place while I am here. If you are wrong too bad so sad. "

Online Editor wrote on Sep 19, 2007 1:13 PM:

" To Dearest Grumper: Please choose your screen name and stick with it, as I have asked you to do before. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 19, 2007 9:56 AM:

" If you hear something that sounds like a steam leak, it is because Grumper just read Maureen Dowd's article in the NYT. http://www.nytimes.com/ 2007/09/19/opinion/ 19dowd.html?ex=1347940800&en= e666d4dd8744e4ffOf &ei= 5124&partner=permalink& exprod=permalink Of course we know the New York Times is not to be trusted. Perhaps Fundy Weekly will reprint it. "

Dear Grumper wrote on Sep 19, 2007 7:47 AM:

" Lets play stump the Grump: Grumper, remember when your hero, George Bush said we would pay for the War in Iraq with oil money from Iraq? How come the war is now projected to cost 2.75 trillion, if we were going to get it for free? Stump the Grump is brought to you by the coalition for rational thought. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 19, 2007 6:54 AM:

" Grumper, I think real progress is being made stamping out superstition. Look at some of the other topics on this blog site, you will see a lot of people finally standing up against the silly fundies, and their attempt to take our freedoms aways. You have several top selling books coming out against the evils of organized religion. The spread of education has made it very difficult for priest,and their like to mislead people. Knowledge more than anything destroys myth. Religious fraud is much simpler to expose. How many young people are buying the traditional myths? There is a lot of hope people will become rational, and we will no longer have hate, suffering, and wars brought to us by religion. "

Dear Grumper wrote on Sep 19, 2007 6:45 AM:

" Wow, I guess God loves war. Nothing worse than a bunch of sissy Christians who will not stand up to Saddam. We have always been so lucky that God is on our side. Which side did God take between the Shites, and Sunni's? Wait, that may be the problem, religion. Who's side was God on in Northern Ireland, the Protestants, or the Catholics? When God made some men black, and some white, he must have said, "This will be fun to watch". God must have gone with the North in the Civil War. Back to Africa, I guess if some group is committing genocide, it is none of our business? How many wars have been caused by one Gods minions fighting some other Gods minions? Would we not be better off without all the God nonsense? "

Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 18, 2007 11:47 PM:

" Ezra; Africa did not attack and occupy Kuwait. Africa did not blow up any of our embassies. Africa did not gas kurds and shoot shiites mass execution style. Africa did not sign post war agreements and then not keep them thus forcing another war. Africa did not shoot at our planes in the no-fly zone. Africa was not paying suicide bombers families to blow themselves up in Israel thus trying to start a bigger war. We could go on and on about the differences between Iraq and Africa. Just like we could speculate on the numbers of agnostics in the world. Pretty small percentage of overall population. Now let me give you a real big crystal ball type forecast on Iraq. We did not leave them with any airplanes or tanks which means they could be taken over by Iran quickly if we leave. Either we will not leave or we will pay a visit to Iran's airports and tanks before leaving. Anything else you want to know? Would you like to know the status of religion in this country? Look at the last thirty years and it will be more of the same. You will have no effect on the future of any one church or on the total number of churches. You will not try to convince any radical Islamic types to give up their war religion because you have no idea where to begin without losing your head. So you buy into the left wing radical talking points. Christian Churches turn the other cheek and politicians endure conspiracy theories. Your rants are on safe ground. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 18, 2007 8:39 PM:

" Lets play stump the grump. OK, Grump, how come you are all upset about people being killed and tortured in Iraq, but the people killed and tortured in Africa don't count? The simple answer is oil. Bush and his oil friends, from the Sheiks in Saudi Arabia, to Haliburton have a direct interest in oil. They have no interest in Africans suffering. If Bush cared about anybody, or anything, he would be promoting nuclear energy very loudly. It doesn't happen, because it would be a threat to the oil companies that own him lock stock and barrel. You need to read how insiders spilled the beans on Bush manipulating fundies. It is the Grumpers of the world who will buy any story and follow blindly, that keep Rush Limbaugh in the chips. Nice to be able to raise your blood pressure again. If the Grump doesn't give a direct answer, I win. That is how you play STUMP THE GRUMP "

waralan wrote on Sep 18, 2007 12:12 PM:

" Seeing that my comments here have been taken out of place, let me explain. I am not naive, and so I recognize that some people will remain a catholic, because they were born into it. For them it is a birthright. That is where my remarks as to the mass were intended. However, I also added the remarks about the priests and the pope to let the people who have broken away from the yolk of the catholic church that prayer/confession to them is not necessary. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 18, 2007 12:04 PM:

" To: To Thinking: You said, "We are in Iraq because lemmings blindly followed George Bush, and did no thinking. (You continued) Religion represents followers, not thinkers and leaders". Do you really believe that statement? Saddam needed to be put on trial for his mass killings of Shiites and Kurds. His use of poison gas (a WMD) on the Kurds. Saddam was shooting at our planes in the no-fly zone. Saddam was paying the families of suicide bombers who blew themselves up in Israel. Saddam had torture chambers and never accounted for the busses of kidnapped Kuwaitis taken as he retreated from Kuwait. During previous administrations he had blown up our embassies in North Africa. Regarding religion you might note that in every continent and every island every people ever discovered had/has a religion. You are in an extreme minority on your religious opinions and on your knowledge of the war. "

waralan wrote on Sep 18, 2007 11:47 AM:

" So now we are discussing whether or not the catholic church is relevant or not. The answer is quite plain: it isn't! The bible tells us that Jesus died for us, and therefore is our intercessor before God. Hence we certainly don't need to confess our sins to a priest. The pope is totally irrevalent. We don't need to pray to Virgin Mary, as she was a sinner as we. However for those who feel they can't back away from the language of their youth, the mass must be said in their native language. "

To Thinking wrote on Sep 18, 2007 7:56 AM:

" When young Americans are being killed in Iraq, you think we should be talking about a Latin Mass? We are in Iraq because lemmings blindly followed George Bush, and did no thinking. Religion represents followers, not thinkers and leaders. If we had independent thinkers, we would not be so easy mislead by people with an agenda to sell. Churches are making millions selling a questionable story, Bush sold us a questionable story now military suppliers are making millions, and our young are dying. We have to teach people to think and question, and quit being blind followers. "

To: To Ezra wrote on Sep 18, 2007 7:31 AM:

" I think one problem you have is you read into something more than what was said. I never said I hated my son in law. That is total nonsense. You made assumption, that since I had issues with the Catholic Church, I hated all Catholics. That is a bit absurd. I have never used the word hate in the context of speaking about a group of people. I once had a friend who was mad at our English teacher. He said to her, "I am sorry you are so stupid". It taught me a lesson. I don't hate anyone. There are some people who I feel I could make the statement to "I am sorry you are so stupid". I love a lot of those people and would like to help them. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 18, 2007 7:24 AM:

" If you understand how this blog works you would know that it is very easy for someone to get confused. I have seen a quite a few things attributed to the wrong people. The to and from aspect also creates problems for clarity. The limitation on the amount of words sometimes makes it hard to get a point across. As I have said before I think the Tribune has basically done a good thing with this forum by allowing people to express ideas. If you have some factual information you would like to add, I think they would let you. It appears to me that the fundamentalist have resorted to name calling, and other tactics because they do not have the support of logic and reason. If you are confused about some stand I have taken, I would gladly answer a specific question. I would like to ask you why do we need religion? "

Thinking wrote on Sep 17, 2007 10:45 PM:

" What does any of the comments the last months have to do with the Catholic Latin Mass? "

To: Ezra wrote on Sep 17, 2007 9:27 PM:

" Today you believe in a God who answered your prayer for healing for your sister. During the past 3 months we've been seeing your posts in here where you rambled about how you don't believe in a God, how Christians are all brain-washed, and how science has all the answers. About a month ago you bragged in here about how you became a millionaire without the help of God. Last week, you announced that you have six family members who are millionaires, but that you aren't one. Two months ago, you were ranting about your Catholic son-in-law whom you hated. About a month ago, we were able to read that you love your Catholic son-in-law, since he left the cultish Catholic Church. We heard you brag in here about your college studies of history, but you can't seem to remember what you said in here a week or two ago. We've also heard you brag about your knowledge of the history of religion and how you want an opportunity to confront Grael Gannon on his lack of true knowledge of religion. Spare us of any more of your intellectual insights, as you loosely use that expression to describe your rants. "

Kevin wrote on Sep 17, 2007 9:24 PM:

" Latin shmatin. "

To: Article by James Johnson wrote on Sep 17, 2007 9:13 PM:

" No one is saying that James Johnson must believe in God, or that God will force James Johnson to spend eternity in heaven with God, angels, saints, and saved non-Christians. God has given each of us a gift of free will to make right choices or wrong choices. Following a path of making wrong choices can earn one a one-way ticket to the abode of the Prince of Darkness for all eternity. "

To: Honest Omar wrote on Sep 17, 2007 9:06 PM:

" Why would you use this blog to tear down Christians, and at that same time use this blog to build yourself up? Are you too scared to do your posting in a blog for atheists? "

Ezra wrote on Sep 17, 2007 9:05 PM:

" I am perplexed that someone should call me depraved because I ask people only to believe in what is real, and can be proven with the scientific method. I find it strange that people who advocate lying to children would have the audacity to call me depraved. I have never been a member of an organization that paid over one billion dollars for molesting children. I find it strange that someone who is a member of such an organization would call preaching reality depraved. I am going to check the definition for depraved, you might try the same. "

To: waralan wrote on Sep 17, 2007 9:01 PM:

" Your post explains your logic very well. First of all, you say that a priest or pope is not needed to offer prayers to God. Then you conclude by saying that the Mass should be offered in the language of the people. Since a priest or pope is not needed, who is going to offer the Mass in the language of the people, and for what purpose? Me thinks that you have been spending too much time in Ezra's meth lab in the basement of his house. "

Dear Grumper wrote on Sep 17, 2007 8:59 PM:

" One of the worst perversions of religion is lying to young people. I don't wish to convince young people of anything. I think young people should not be molested by priest, either physically, or mentally. Telling young people about heaven, hell, souls, and all the other nonsense amounts to simple lying. It would be far more fair to young people to warn them that it could all be made up, and there is a lot of evidence it is. When my children asked me where babies came from I told them. When they asked me about religion I told them the truth. I told them I didn't know. Why is that so hard for you to admit? Just trying saying it once "I don't know". It is like learning to tell the truth. When someone says "did you take the cookies?", it is tempting to make something up, but the honest thing to do is answer yes. Why do religious people have to present as truth, that which is mythology, legend, superstition, or distortion. If you tell me your brand is true, then tell why the other brands are false, and how you can be so sure. "

To: Nancy Gordon wrote on Sep 17, 2007 8:55 PM:

" It is interesting that the news release, dated, August 7, 2001, about Baptist retirees getting ripped off of their life's savings by the Baptist Foundation of Arizona is appearing on this blog six years later. Was the purpose of this post to warn the reading public that Baptists are just as greedy as Catholics, or that the poster isn't able to finding any more dirt on Catholics so now is picking on Baptists? "

Ezra wrote on Sep 17, 2007 8:48 PM:

" Good to hear from you Grumpy Art, for awhile I thought we lost you. Good to have you back. "

waralan wrote on Sep 17, 2007 6:51 PM:

" First of all the idea that we need the priest/pope to pray to God on our behalf is a bunch of nonsense. In effect, the catholic church is a dead one. Now to get to the language of the mass, unless it is said/done in the language of the people it is worthless. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 17, 2007 6:29 PM:

" This is a bizarre story, but true. I have one sister who would probably qualify as a fundy. Several years ago she had brain surgery. Her surgery has created some long term problems for her, and in the last two weeks she had to be hospitalized. While I was talking to her on the phone she had a siezure and passed out. The next time I talked to her, she asked me to pray for her. I said I would. She knows I am an agnostic. Today, I talked to her, and she sounded very good. Well, one could say God answered my prayer, or one could say she would have recovered anyway. I have no clue what happened. However, if the prayer did work, I find it strange that I should join any church, since God works as I have often thought he does. I believe in a 1-800 God that listens to anyone free without the intervention of religion. One could argue my sister's recovery proves me right, or perhaps I owe some church a toll for the call. Now, how do I decide which one? "

Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 17, 2007 6:05 PM:

" Ezra; you certainly can convince some young people that they do not have a body, or a mind, or a soul. But why would someone be so depraved as to put that burden on a young person. You are not going to convince any adults. You are not going to change the next election. It is very hard to imagine why you are doing what you do. Trying to convince someone that there is no heaven and no such thing as a soul makes you one of the most evil people I can imagine. Bush is not going to be reelected so you might as well slither back in your hole. Pretending that every branch of science conflicts with every religion is very ignorant. Pretending that science will not change in any way and has all the answers right now is really dumb. "

JC wrote on Sep 17, 2007 4:11 PM:

" My Apologies to Mr.Omar, my point was; why should we, the narrow minded Catholics, sit back and be judged by you and Ezra. You keep mentioning rational thinking, yet in your equation, you claim all positives are on your side and all negatives are on our side. I thought you may have overlooked a few of your own self-acknowledged athiests. You can't judge and not be judged. If we level the playing field, this world won't be an up hill climb for either of us. God bless you OMAR! "

To Honest Omar and relatives wrote on Sep 17, 2007 3:39 PM:

" If you catagorize all christians, catholics, and fundamentalists as no good, non-sensical, irrational, thieving scoundrals; why would you want us to bother sub-catagorizing athiests into groups of good and bad? Can there be both? maybe YOU should also consider individual cases before you start throwing stones. "

Honest Omar wrote on Sep 17, 2007 2:42 PM:

" JC, Your sophomoric attempt to group Ezra and me with murderers Manson and McVeigh is despicable, indefensible, and beneath contempt. But it is no less than I would expect from those whose ethics are informed by bibles, or korans. I do not know Ezra except from his writings, but I have not seen anything in those to suggest he is a murderer. I am an ordinary sixty-something retiree grandad with my own set of average shortcomings. I would hope that even the most militant of fundamentalists would concede that the shortcomings of McVeigh and Manson were somewhat above average. Bang - You are correct. Something or someone must have set it off. Since we may never know precisely what the original conditions were, I am happy to say "I don't know". That is where you and I differ. Where there is difficulty finding a natural explanation for any phenomena, you and yours are all too anxious to invent a supernatural explanation and give it a name. What, precisely, is wrong with telling our kids "We don't know" instead of making up fairy tale explanations?? "

MamaMia wrote on Sep 17, 2007 2:05 PM:

" I've known Honest Omar for over three decades and never knew about his "dark side". Yikes! Loose the hounds! "

Ezra wrote on Sep 17, 2007 1:58 PM:

" Had a wonderful weekend, added an extra day. Thanks to the people who kept an eye on the fundies. I cannot get the concept of some people who say that if something happened, like the big bang, there must have been a cause. If you believe it had to have a cause, then what give you the liberty to just make us something like the God deal? If indeed you believe everything must have a cause, you are caught in a nasty mess, because what caused God? The argument doesn't work does it? "

Mrs. Honest Omar wrote on Sep 17, 2007 10:16 AM:

" I've been married to Honest Omar for over 3 decades and never knew I was living with the likes of McVeigh and Manson!!!!! Hide the grandkids! "

bang wrote on Sep 16, 2007 8:42 PM:

" Hocus Pocus? Sounds kind of like something else I have heard of. What was it? Oh yes I remember, it's like saying the big bang happened all on it's own. That to seems to defy all rules of physics does it not? Something had to have caused it if it did happen. "

LM wrote on Sep 16, 2007 9:30 AM:

" The response by James Johnson says it all. Its all hocus pocus, mumbo jumbo, smoke and mirrors, including the so-called Holy Bable. "

JC wrote on Sep 15, 2007 1:39 PM:

" Is that you hiding EZRA? Would the story have even made you look if the headline was: 'Woman raped by sports team'? When anything "Spins out of Control" someone could get hurt, examples; Government, military, sporting events, O.J Simpson. The common factor here is people, some people with different agendas. All your unending lists are also ways of catagorizing and sub-catagorizing people, just to create a statistic or stack facts, as some people claim, on their side of a silly argument. Lists that you fail to mention; under the athiest column we have: Timothy McVeigh, Charles Manson, Honest Omar, Ezra, AND THE LIST GOES ON! I'm of the belief that even responding to you is nothing more than a waste of oxygen that I may someday need! "

Article by James Johnson wrote on Sep 15, 2007 1:26 PM:

" Intelligent men do not decide any subject until they have carefully examined all sides of it. Fools, cowards, and those too lazy to think, accept blindly, without examination, dogmas and doctrines imposed upon them in childhood by their parents, priests, and teachers, when their minds were immature and they could not reason. [Some] 433,000,000 Mohammedans believe that the Koran was brought by an angel from heaven; 335,000,000 Hindus believe one of their gods, Siva, has six arms; 153,000,000 Buddhists believe they will be reincarnated; 904,000,000 Christians believe a god made the world in six days, Joshua stopped the sun by yelling at it, and Jesus was born of a virgin and nullified natural laws to perform miracles. There is no scientific proof of any of these claims. Science has shown them to be contrary to all known facts. It is more intelligent to classify them as false. Religions are all based upon the primitive superstitions of ignorant, stone-age men who had no knowledge of science and thought the world was flat. "

to ezra wrote on Sep 15, 2007 1:26 PM:

" Oh I don't need the threat of hell to do good, but look at the world around you. Obviously there are a lot of people who should believe in something becuase they are bad and selfish people. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 15, 2007 11:58 AM:

" You have to be insane to think fundies would not boycott a business it the businessman admitted he believed in reality. The same is true for politicians. If they were honest and said in public what they really believed they would never get elected. Anyone who has followed then news knows that withing the Bush administration they actually made fun of the fundamentalist. However, they would not dare say it publicly. In our society it is essential to lie about your religious beliefs or face the consequences. The Jews are a perfect example. They have suffered immensly from being persecuted just for being Jewish. Who is it that does the persecution, it is the "Good Christians". How many country clubs kept Jews and blacks from joining? Don't you think those country clubs were full of good Christians? Could you imagine if a car dealer said he thought religion was a fraud? Most educated, professional people do not believe, but go along to get along. Many church goers do it strictly for business reasons. When I grew up the Catholics made it a point to only do business with Catholics if they could. No one could get elected in North Dakota if they publicly admitted they were agnostic. "

Nancy Gordon wrote on Sep 15, 2007 11:17 AM:

" Regulators Warn on Religious Fraud The Associated Press/August 7, 2001 By Marcy Gordon Washington -- Forrest Bomar, a retiree with most of his life savings in brokerage accounts, was tired of the market's swings and attracted by the 6.7-percent return offered on investments by the Baptist Foundation of Arizona. He and his wife, Lee, are Baptists and were impressed by the salesman who came to their home in Tucson and seemed to share their values. "So we plunged in, repeatedly," Bomar recalled in an interview. "I was foolish enough to not ask for an annual report." Now, the Bomars have lost nearly all of their $236,166 investment in what turned out to be a scam. The foundation declared bankruptcy and was shut down by state regulators, and three foundation officials have pleaded guilty to defrauding investors. Forrest Bomar said he went through stages of disbelief, shock and deep depression from which he has not fully recovered. Still, in the end, he said Tuesday at a news conference, "My faith was tested; my faith was not taken." More than 13,000 people around the country, many of them elderly Baptists, invested some $590 million in the organization, state securities regulators said. "

Community? wrote on Sep 15, 2007 11:05 AM:

" To: Grael Gannon poster? What did you mean when you said, "Unfortunately...and it is truly unfortunate...because of the nature of my family's business I could never attempt such in this community". Do you think the community would not do business with you if they saw the real YOU, and not some distorted business facade? Your probably right in questioning your own morality if you feel the majority of the community wouldn't feel comfortable doing business with you. It must be rough knowing you have the right answers to a lot of questions, but you can't tell anyone for fear they won't like the real you. "

Recommended wrote on Sep 15, 2007 10:43 AM:

" Faith-Based Fraud Jerry Falwell's foul rantings prove you can get away with anything if you have "Reverend" in front of your name. By Christopher Hitchens http://slate.com/id/2166337/fr/flyout "

To JC wrote on Sep 15, 2007 8:45 AM:

" Today's news features a story about a woman raped by polygamist Mormons. When religion spins out of control, someone usually gets hurt. Jesus was the first person hurt by religion, from there you have the inquisitions, the crusades, the holocaust, the trouble in the middle east, the trouble in Northern Ireland, the imprisonment of women by the Catholic Church, sex abuse and the list goes on. Remember the various cults where people committed suicide. Of course you also have all the finical fraud like Jimmy Baker, Oral Roberts, Pat Robertson, Billy Graham, and so forth. The you have the Mormons discriminating against blacks and the list goes on. Last but not least you have young children exposed to th e nonsense of religious myth as if it were true. This does not include the people bankrupted paying for churches throughout the ages. Now, we keep promoting this because we say it was just a few bad apples taking advantage of a wonderful thing. "

To: On-Line Editor wrote on Sep 14, 2007 9:57 PM:

" This is from the Grael Gannon poster. Thank you for the invitation to apply. I have much to write about history, especially regarding the history of religion. Unfortunately...and it is truly unfortunate...because of the nature of my family's business I could never attempt such in this community. I most certainly appreciate you giving your readers an opportunity to respond to Mr. Gannon, who should not be allowed the publishing of his version of the history of religion unapposed, something, I doubt, he experiences in his classroom at Shiloh Christian. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 14, 2007 9:53 PM:

" It would be wonderful if the Bismark Tribune had some sort of counter to the fundy nonsense. Surely there is a fundy buster syndicated column somewhere. As I said before Karen Hertzog could do a book review of some of the current best sellers that are trying to rid us of the delusion. The simple stuff in the current paper is unreadable. I could care less about how someone interprets what happened two thousand years ago, Why not do some expose on the local frauds that are raking in money, and sending out drivil? "

Online Editor wrote on Sep 14, 2007 8:36 PM:

" To Once Again: What About Grael Gannon: I have made all of the preparations to put his column online, just forgot to do so today, so it is nobody's fault but me own. If you are interested in providing a different point of view and writing your own column you could contact the editor, John Irby for consideration. "

Once Again: What About Grael Gannon wrote on Sep 14, 2007 7:14 PM:

" I see that his "article," if one wants to call it such, is still not subject to a blog resonse. Is "The Tribune" trying to protect this guy for some reason? As to the "article," it was a total waste of ink and paper. It should be in the Thursday "Faith" section. And, to ON-LINE EDITOR, if I want to read the gospel of john I can do so on my own; it should not be inflicted on me as an editorial...for which, might I remind you, I pay a subscription! I asked once before and never received an answer, "What is the job description for this editorial position? Conservative writer or bible apologist?" From Gannon we get little of the former and a tsunami of the latter. He is an evangelical posing as an historian. And I, for one, prefer my history unblemished. "

Definition from Wikapedia wrote on Sep 14, 2007 6:20 PM:

" Fundie or fundy (plural fundies) is a pejorative slang term used to refer to Fundamentalist Christians. The term is intentionally derogatory, and is used most commonly by those opposed to the Religious Right movement. The term is often associated with religiously motivated conservative moral beliefs, especially those regarding social issues. In etymological terms, fundie is an example of a mutated contraction resulting from relaxed pronunciation, where the original word (in this case Fundamentalist) is shortened and slightly altered. There is no recorded first use of the term, though its appearance in the American English vocabulary coincided with the rise of Christian politics in the 1970s. The word can be used derogatorily to refer to anyone with a strong outspoken belief in any religion, any cause or any concept. This use is less common. The term is used liberally in various publications and in common speech. Atheist publications and websites use the term frequently. While fundamentalists object to the term, it is not considered hate speech by the general public. "

To Doubting Thomas wrote on Sep 14, 2007 5:12 PM:

" If you want Hocus Pocus got to church, or watch Fox news. You might try watching Bush give a speech. "

To Doubting Thomas wrote on Sep 14, 2007 4:54 PM:

" If you agree to pay me ten dollars an hour for every hour of donated labor I have done in the last five years, I will get you the verification. "

Doubting Thomas wrote on Sep 14, 2007 2:01 PM:

" Any verifiable project in particular Ezra? Possibly more of your on line Hokus-Pokus. "

To:For Ezra wrote on Sep 14, 2007 1:53 PM:

" What do I do to help the poor? I like helping people, so I do a lot. Last winter my wife and I ran into a poor kid who wanted to go hiking. We took him on a mountain hike, bought him lunch and some hiking poles he said he wanted. I spent over three years and 1500 man hours building a community project. Frequently my wife and I donate labor. Recently we worked five days at a sawmill cutting lumber for another communities project. Both my wife and myself have donated labor amounting to thousands of dollars worth of work for community projects. I have worked with kids sentenced to community service. Frequently I counsel these kids and I always make it a point to buy them lunch. Recently I did a volunteer program for the Bismarck Library. We donate money, clothing, books, and whatever we can. Although we could afford new vehicles we drive our cars for over two hundred thousand miles so we do not waste resources. We walk and ride bikes to eliminate pollution. I could go on forever. It is total nonsense to think you need to be threatened with hell or reward with heaven to do right. Please tell me why you need religion to do what is obviously the right thing? "

Ezra wrote on Sep 14, 2007 1:09 PM:

" Bulletin: Ezra spent all morning digging holes by hand for a community project. If Satan could get all his minions to work this hard, problem solved. Ezra is taking a lunch break. "

for ezra wrote on Sep 14, 2007 9:29 AM:

" I can agree with you on the televangelists, and especially robertson. Nutty theives is all they are. But because they take something and polute it, you think that makes all true beleivers and all true churches wrong? That is like saying an atheist that commits murder makes all atheists bad people. It doesn't compute. "

for Ezra wrote on Sep 14, 2007 9:12 AM:

" Millionair or not, you haven't answered the basic question, which is what do you do to help the poor? You complain about the churches and the help they give, what do you do to help the world around you? "

Ezra wrote on Sep 14, 2007 8:08 AM:

" Once in a while I watch the Myth Busters show on television. Wouldn't it be great if they had a religious version? It is amazing how many channels have one religion or another on trying to bilk old ladies. They all ask for money in exchange for some trinket or the promise they will help someone. Most of the independent bilkers have the audacity to show the elaborate Churches they have built with the money they have stolen. Wouldn't it be great if one channel just showed how the crooks like Pat Roberson operated. Remember when Pat said God told him to run for president. Pat collected 22 million and then lost the race. Did God really want Pat to waste 22 million that could have helped the poor. Sixty Minutes has done a lot of exposes on crooked preachers, but there is enough material to have an ongoing channel. I suggest they call the program "Fundy Busters". It would be a great public service. "

To: Ezra wrote on Sep 13, 2007 9:51 PM:

" About a month ago, you stated in one of your posts that you are a retired millionaire. At the time, you prided yourself in making that much money without the help of God. If you lost all that money during the past month so that you are forced to get a daily meal in a soup kitchen, there is nothing wrong with that. Christian Churches around the country have been sponsoring soup kitchens for the poor and needy for decades. "

The Bottom Line wrote on Sep 13, 2007 8:42 PM:

" All religions are intellectually...and scientifically bankrupt...ALL of them. They offer now proof of anything. Now, ladies and gentelmen, it is time for us to give up all this and move forward to the real truth of science, which is and should be man's only "religion:" offers indisputable truths, but is very frightening in its view of the future: man is nothing in this cosmos. So, what to do? Do your very best, because you are burning serious daylight on earth and you won't be singing any hymns in an afterlife! "

Ezra wrote on Sep 13, 2007 8:34 PM:

" I am not sure what the problem is you have with the English language, I never said I was a millionaires. I said I am one of nine children. Of the nine six are millionaires. You can interpret that as you like. You seem incapable of understanding logic. The point I was trying to make is that we all did just fine without the Jesus nonsense. If I said I was one of nine children, six of whom were black, that does not tell you if I am black or not, what is so hard to understand about that? "

Honest Omar wrote on Sep 13, 2007 1:09 PM:

" Absolutely incredible!!!!! Today's 'Superstition' section features (celebrates!) a sculpture of an ancient torture device with a man hanging on it. What next??!! A guillotine with a head in the basket? Or better yet, in keeping with our western traditions, a man hanging in a noose from a tree!! How absolutely tasteless and senseless. What kind of mind does it take to appreciate junk like this? I think the answer is to be found in a casual stroll through this blog. "

to ezra wrote on Sep 13, 2007 9:42 AM:

" Again I am telling you (It's like talking to a brick wall I swear) If you talk to a fundamentalist Catholic, and especially to a member of the society of St Pius X, they will tell you of their hatred if Bush. they didn't vote for him in either election, think we shoudln't be in Iraq, and to be honest think we should be here at home not allowing jobs to go over seas, not fighting in other countries, and not worrying about the rest of the world. In fact keeping the jobs home was their belief before the dems made it one of the planks on their platform. So, it sounds like their politics agree very much with your politics, I'm not getting why you have the need to blame them for Bush and lump them in with the so called Christian Fundamentalists. "

to ezra wrote on Sep 13, 2007 7:32 AM:

" ok Mr Ezra millionaire. I have another question to ponder. You are a millionaire as you have made sure to tell us all. What good do you do with your money? You whine about people giving their money to the churches and in reality they are doing their best to follow Christ by helping the poor. In Christs time it was giving the money to the temple, now the churches. Yes some churches don't always use that money like they should, and it is up to the members to make sure that money us used properly. But my point is, even the poorest believer in Christ gives money to help others. So what do you do? How many toys do you buy with your millions in comparison with what you give to help others? "

Ezra wrote on Sep 13, 2007 7:32 AM:

" It is amazing that our president who got elected pandering to the fundies, was told to do it by Karl Rove, who is a self confessed atheist. If you doubt this go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIZS7jIy608 and find out for yourself. "

To: Why does God allow suffering wrote on Sep 13, 2007 6:19 AM:

" Your explanation is the most convoluted nonsense I have seen in quite awhile. So, suffering is prayer? Thank God for all the starving, and dying people that are praying so effectively. I would also like to thank the Jews that suffered under Hitler for their prayers. What kind of God would set up such a ridiculous system? All of this ingenious prayer system is coming from a "Loving" God. A loving God that thinks a good prayer is someone suffering? How twisted can someone get to justify something that makes no sense? "

Why does God allow suffering? wrote on Sep 12, 2007 9:36 PM:

" Trying to make sense of suffering, or find meaning in suffering, was a problem for peoples in the Old Testament and New Testament times. Remember the story of Job where the belief was that the absence of suffering was interpreted as a sign of God's blessings. The belief was that there were five signs that you were being blessed by God: 1) to have a wife, 2) to have many children, 3) to have many friends, 4) to have good health, and, 5) to have many posssessions. The belief then was that to suffer from an illness, or for some other cause, was a sign that God didn't bless you and that the illness was a sign of sin in one's life. The prosperity theology folks today still preach and teach that illness is a sign of a lack of faith in God and that it is a punishment from God. The truth is that Jesus becomes a role model in showing us that suffering can be redemptive and be a source of much grace. Suffering, that which is not self-imposed, is a special grace from the Lord. The Lord's special friends are called to suffer for the sake of the Kingdom. The suffering is a prayer that brings blessings to the person going through the suffering, and brings blessings to those around us. Don't pray for an end to suffering, but pray for the grace to endure the suffering and so God uses your suffering to bring hope and salvation to others. You do this by uniting your sufferings with the sufferings of Christ. "

To: to, to Who Gets to Heaven wrote on Sep 12, 2007 9:12 PM:

" Please read these quotes carefully. Jesus says that the Son of Man is coming. He doesn't refer to himself as that Son of Man. When Jesus, who was a 1st century Jewish Apocolypticist, as were many Jews then, talked about the Son of Man he was referring to a divine intervener who would descend from heaven -- during Jesus' time -- to set things right. This fits his preachings and his parables, at least insofar as the Synoptic gospels are concerned (John is an entirely different matter). Anyway there is really no way to be certain exactly what Jesus said, as the gospels were written down 40-85 years after his death by anonymous authors who were not eyewitnesses to his life. In fact they were all written in Greek. Jesus spoke Aramaic. One more time: the religion of jesus was apocolypticsm. But the gospels, especially by the time of John, make HIM into a religion. If you want historical insight into the new testament, not relgious or theological gobbledygook, read anything by professor Bart Ehrens. "

to ezra wrote on Sep 12, 2007 9:04 PM:

" I don't know, I guess I know plenty of people who make up their own reality ezra. believing in religion or not has very little to do with it. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 12, 2007 4:47 PM:

" The beauty of religion is you can make up what ever you want. Reality doesn't give you that luxury. I prefer reality. "

why wrote on Sep 12, 2007 2:32 PM:

" Why does God allow suffering? I don't know. Maybe it is his hope that we love him enough to do his will to help those in need "

to honest wrote on Sep 12, 2007 2:25 PM:

" What makes you think God sat back and watched? How do you know he dind't push the buttons on natural selection? Creatures don't change form or habit without something making them. I will agree with one statement though. I Dont Know is seen as bad and to be honest it isn't bad because no one on this earth can know the mind of God. Why should anyone pretend to know it? "

Honest Omar wrote on Sep 12, 2007 1:39 PM:

" I love it!!! Your god pushed the button that set it all off, then sat back and waited 14 billion years for natural selection to provide him critters with brains big (barely) enough to worship him. Such propositions are so ludicrous as to be laughable, if it were not for the propensity of some of those critters to commit acts of egregious horror on god's behalf. "

To: To Ezra wrote on Sep 12, 2007 1:33 PM:

" The wonderful words are "I don't know". I am the first to admit, I don't know. That is all I am asking of anyone. If you don't know, don't make it up. I go with the side that presents the best evidence. If all religious people would just admit, "I don't know", and quit trying to pretend they do, what a wonderful place Earth would be. However, those who insist they do, are the ones who have brought us strife for centuries. Once you decide you know, and God is on your side, it is just one more step to persecuting the poor fellows that don't know. "

to ezra wrote on Sep 12, 2007 12:45 PM:

" and I have also read theories which state that the whole world to the bible writers was the mideast region and so it is possible it could have been a regional and not a world flood. I wasn't there so I don't know, just like you weren't at the big bang so you dont know. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 12, 2007 12:26 PM:

" Recently the Discovery Channel did a documentary that asked the question "Could the entire world have been flooded during the time humans existed?". A scientist pointed out that it would have taken forty times the amount of water now on Earth. The scientist asked if the water were here at one time where did it go? There is no way to account for the water. If you want to attribute it to a miracle, or just make up some explanation, then you are off to the world of fantasy. However, to believe the entire world was flooding during the time of man defies all common sense, but that is what it takes if you want to believe. "

to ezra wrote on Sep 12, 2007 11:36 AM:

" And I am willing to admit that a big bang happened, I just believe God caused it. combine hydrogen and oxygen in a bottle, light it, have it explode and you will create water. Something still had to cause it to ignite. "

MamaMia wrote on Sep 12, 2007 11:28 AM:

" Latin is a dead language, as dead as it can be; It killed off all the Romans, and now it's killing me. "

JC wrote on Sep 12, 2007 10:45 AM:

" To whoever wrote these two posts; To JC wrote on Sep 11, 2007 6:23PM: and To JC wrote on Sep 12, 2007 8:16 AM: I don't know what your talking about, I never posted anything about the flood or suppossed scientific research. Have another drink and go back to sleep. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 12, 2007 9:40 AM:

" How do you know the big bank happened? I don't. However, when one looks out into the universe one sees what one would expect to see if a big bang took place, background radiation. Now, if the entire world were once flooded, one would expect to see sediment covering all parts of the world. Once does not see this, so it is unlikely it happened. This is how reason works, science works, and logic works. As I have said many times I am perfectly willing to admit what is feasible, and what is not. Religious beliefs defy all logic, and have no basis in reality, they have led to nothing but war and suffering, so I don't advocate people follow things that are man made fantasy, unless they admit that is the case. There is nothing wrong with fantasy, as long as you understand that is what you are dealing with and don't use it as an excuse to oppress, deceive, commit fraud, or mislead children and the simple minded. "

To JC wrote on Sep 12, 2007 8:16 AM:

" The source you cited as proof for a flood that covered the entire world is ridiculous. The writer himself labels the stories, as stories. He also labels the myths the same way. There is not one shred of scientific evidence. Because a lot of rumors exist it means nothing. The number of people that believe something have noting to do with the truthfulness of it. For example almost everyone believed the world was flat at one time. It is not. Another problem with you logic is that some of the stories cite Zeus as the cause of the flood. This seems like quite a contradiction to cite a story about Zuess causing a flood to prove God did it. Fundy logic defies all logic. "

rls wrote on Sep 12, 2007 7:41 AM:

" Amazing how the non Catholic, anti-Christian crowd is very good at insults and name calling. This article was about Latin in a Roman Catholic Mass, and had nothing to do with fundamentalists. You are free to believe what you want, I am free to believe what I want. Instead of attacking what you know nothing about, perhaps you should take the time to actually read about what the Catholic church believes. Perhaps take an RCIA class and learn a little bit, so you can graduate from name calling and rudeness and participate in a discussion about the topic. "

to to who gets to heaven wrote on Sep 12, 2007 7:31 AM:

" Once again you show how little you do know. Jesus said only the father knows the day or the hour. He never said it would happen in his or the disciples lifetime. Now the disciples and apostles believed it would be soon, but they were human and hopeful. Jesus however never, not even one, said it would be soon. Here are some biblical references of Jesus calling himself the son of man. Of course it is biblical so your excuse to deny is already built in. Mk 13:26-THEY SHALL THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING Mt 10:23-THE SON OF MAN BE COME Mt 16:27-THE SON OF MAN SHALL COME Mt 16:28-THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING Mt 24:27-SO SHALL...THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE Mt 24:30-THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING Mt 25:19-THE LORD...COMETH Mt 25:31-THE SON OF MAN SHALL COME Mt 26:64-HEREAFTER…YE SEE THE SON OF MAN...COMING "

To: Who Gets Into Heaven wrote on Sep 11, 2007 10:00 PM:

" Yours might be the most incredibly stupid and un-informed posting on this blog for all time! You say that Jesus died for Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, catholics, protestants, and Jews?? Well...for your information, AT THE VERY LEAST, when Jesus died, the Muslims, catholics, and protestants did not even exist! So how could he have died for them? And he didn't die for the others either. He was a nobody from a backwater town of Nazareth who was an apocolypticist, preaching the imminent "kingdom of god," which would wipe out the existing (Roman) order and establish a kind of utopia on earth. Jesus expected this to happen in his lifetime. So did Paul. Both, as we know, were wrong. It has not happened to this day. Jesus never claimed himself to be the "Son of Man," who would be the divine intervener to accomplish this utopia. Later, Jesus's "spin doctors," the anonymous gospel writers, changed Jesus' apocolyptic religion into a relgion all about him. And that is why we have this mess and abomination today called the christian church, whether, catholic or otherwise. "

To: All of You wrote on Sep 11, 2007 9:44 PM:

" This blog is going nowhere and has become incredibly boring. Too much Ezra, with whom I do side as a fellow non-believer, against the incredible, too fecund, stupidity of Grumpy Art, et. al. May all you believers enjoy your ephemeral heaven once you leave us. Sooner would be better than later. "

to ezra wrote on Sep 11, 2007 9:18 PM:

" You laugh whenever someone mentions all of the flood legends in different cultures. Check out this web site: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html All of them in one nice place for you. You like to read and research, read them and tell me why so many cultures have similar legends? Cultures that never would have come in to any sort of contact. "

to ezra wrote on Sep 11, 2007 9:09 PM:

" How do you know the big bang happened? You have no evidence of that either. How do you know God doesn't exist? You just have your belief. As for the rigidity of the catholic church in some beliefs. Well they dont believe in abortion or euthanasia becuase it is murder plain and simple. Taking the life of another is murder, look up the term in the dictionary. Birth Control the church has a problem with becuase it causes people to have even less self control and it can also cause the loss of a life and kill a fetus. From a scientific standpoint, have you ever read the side effects on a birth control package? Moodiness, bleeding, siezures. Oh and there is a reason they warn you not to smoke when on it. Lets not forget the rise in cancer since the pill has had widespread use, especially breast and uterus cancers in women. Oh, how about the rise in STD's because now people aren't afraid of getting pregnant so they have permiscusous sex. It's funny though, you keep saying fundies and talk about how they are the cause for the current politics in this country and yet a catholic fundamentalist and a baptist fundamentalist or a televangelist will disagree on almost everything, including politics. "

To JC wrote on Sep 11, 2007 6:23 PM:

" If indeed you read some very good scientific research, where did you find it. Could you cite the source? This is just like a few of your other assertions. You still have not been able to answer the question put to you regarding other religions. You seem to have taken the dancing lessons old Grumpy Art was an expert at. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 11, 2007 6:21 PM:

" I have checked the definition for fundy several times. It is a slang term for a fundamentalist. It has gained widespread use. Look up the work fundamentalist, and you will know what a fundy is. According to the dictionary a fundamentalist can be any religion. The main characteristic is rigidity of belief. I think it is fair to say Catholics have been stuck in the same rut for a long time. They refuse to budge on birth control, and many other modern issues. If you know of a dictionary that defines the term differently let me know. Originally it was mainly applied to protestants, but you might note that there are now Islamic fundamentalist. It is not a particular belief, but the inability to be affected by rational thought that makes one a fundy. For example someone who believes the entire Earth was flooded with water during the time humans were present, is believing something that there is absolutely no evidence for. If they continue to believe it in spite of no evidence you would say they are a fundamentalist. Reason does not change their mind nor does reality. "

to ezra wrote on Sep 11, 2007 4:24 PM:

" Actually I have read some very good scientific research that does indicate that the earth could have been covered by water. Many other cultures also contain similar flood stories. Also, you again go with the word fundies and I again tell you fundies by your definition is anyone who believes in a religion. In fact a true fundamentalist hates catholics, muslims, etc and are indeed not christlike in their beliefs. A true catholic or christian will not hate but will love. Of course I am sure you would rather not get hung up on symantecs here, it's not good for your point of view. "

Honest Omar wrote on Sep 11, 2007 3:26 PM:

" What we should all take away from this very interesting forum is the frightening ease with which young minds can be fed a weekly dose (or more) of myth and fairy tales masquerading as fact, and not be able to jettison these preposterous propositions as they mature. It should give us all pause that such is the case. It would be all but impossible for young minds to form convictions on their own regarding the veracity of the myths. It is only through the complicity of fearful parents, and their paid facilitators (shamans, witch doctors, priests) that this cancer continues to pass from generation to generation. god, please protect me from your followers!! "

Ezra wrote on Sep 11, 2007 2:15 PM:

" I am perpetually amazed that rather than try to make a rational argument for your point of view, you suggest the blog be ended. No one forces me to read this stuff, and I think people can decide for themselves what they believe. I have seen this tactic put forth before by the Catholic Church. Forbid people to read certain books. What is the logic of that? It assumes they might have their mind changed by reason. We would no want that to happen. Free speech relies on the idea that different views can be presented. Communist try to control the press, dictators do, and so do Churches. When you cannot stand up to reason, then silence the person who is poisoning your fantasy with reality. I think the Bismarck Tribune has done a great service by letting people put their ideas in front of the public. That is exactly what newspapers are for. I think the editor has been extremely fair in allowing a diversity of opinion. Now, you ask him to silence people you don't agree with. If you have something to say, I beg the editor to let you say it. Your problem is you are not supported by facts, logic, or any of the normal things we rely on for truth. That is not my problem, nor the editors problem. Do some research and come up with something to support your point of view, that is what adults do. Dictators say "Shut Up". You never suggest missionaries leave people alone. I am a missionary for reason, truth, and logic. "

To JC wrote on Sep 11, 2007 1:29 PM:

" Bulletin: I just prayed and it worked. I asked God to forgive me for fighting the fundies, and let the stock market make me some money. I just checked I made 14k. Praise Jesus. Now my dilema, should I just give the money to Doctors without Borders and let them help some poor people directly, or should I send it to the Catholic Church to help pay for the sex scandals, and a few new Cathedrals. Hold on, I am going to pray. OK, God said give it to the doctors. Wow, this praying is something. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 11, 2007 1:21 PM:

" About the lab in my basement. I combined oxygen, and hydrogen, and it produces water every time. I have never been able to turn water into wine, unless I follow the normal fermentation process, which involves some grapes. In my lab we require proof. There is no proof the Earth was ever entirely covered with water. Most engineers and boat designers say there is no way a boat could have been designed that would have held two of everything on Earth, especially given the measurements provided in the Bible. It defies physics as we know it. In my lab we assume that if thousands of people lived somewhere for forty years, like the Jews who wandered the desert they would have left something, that could have been found. Nothing has ever been found to indicate this ever happened. Please give me the formula for turning wine into the blood of Christ. I tried the magic words in my lab, and even had a priest say the magic words. The lab at the hospital said it was still wine. How come you go to men of science when you are sick instead of the Church. I have been cured by doctors many times, but prayer has never brought down a fever for me. Please explain. Perhaps God doesn't love me, but I heard he forgives everyone, so it should have worked. I also asked God to end the Genocide in Africa, apparently his phone is off the hook, or he is letting those people suffer because he is mad at me. Seem pretty small minded to me. "

To: Again??? wrote on Sep 11, 2007 1:17 PM:

" If you hear your children or grandchildren making comments to you, or about you, of you being in your second childhood, they are being polite. They are expressing concerns about your behaviors being symptoms of you still being in your first childhood. Simply stated, your family wants you to grow up. "

Who gets into heaven? wrote on Sep 11, 2007 1:09 PM:

" I don't think that this blog was designed to determine who does or who doesn't get into heaven. God is the ultimate Judge as to who does or who doesn't get into heaven. Those who go enter into the Presence of the Almighty for all eternity get there only through the mercy and compassion of the Almighty. Those who don't get into heaven can't blame God for the bad choices they made, for refusing to repent of their sinfulness, or for despairing of God's mercy. Jesus Christ came into the world to save the world, not to condemn the world. Jesus died for Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, non-believers in God, and anyone else who doesn't come under any one of the above-mentioned categories. "

To Ezra wrote on Sep 11, 2007 1:01 PM:

" The "Ezra" post dated September 11, 2007 11:43 a.m. was intended to read: To Ezra" "

Honest Omar wrote on Sep 11, 2007 12:36 PM:

" The level of misunderstanding of the scientific method, and evolution in particular, by those claiming a faith-based worldview is simply appalling. 'Suggestion' had some very good ideas for the Superstition Page. "

to ezra wrote on Sep 11, 2007 12:34 PM:

" Ezra, millionair, whatever you feel like calling yourself today to make it seem like you have more backing than you really do, you make yourself look foolish the longer you let this continue. Please just let this comment section be put out of it's misery. If you dont like catholics, or religion fine, that is your choice. I don't see them banging on your door to force you to like them or to belong. As for your argument that religion is responsible for all evils in the world, well i think that has plainly been proven to be a falsehood. Sorry, but you can't be right all the time and while you make some good arugments for Christians and really all religious people to actually follow their religion so as not to confuse people like you, you make yourself look foolish still. "

To JC wrote on Sep 11, 2007 12:03 PM:

" Newsweek just came to my door. Read the article "Can God Love Darwin, Too?". A fundy professor at Olivet Nazarene University in Illinois said yes. His book was banned, and he was not allowed to teach. So much for open minded fundies. Anyone who wants to see hypocrisies in action can read for themselves. If you want to see religious intolerance in action, there is no better example than fundies turning on fundies. Professor Colling got in trouble when he said evolution does not preclude a deity. (though neither does it require one). His idea is that God may have used evolution. Gee, we would not want to accept God as capable of some clever designing. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 11, 2007 11:43 AM:

" Good to know that you have a science lab in the basement of your home in which you do extensive testing of all scientific theories. Why did the world have to wait these millions of years to learn from your personal experiments in your basement that there is no Creator, that the world created itself, and a host of other scientifically proven facts? Your experiment with tossing thousands of paper letters of the alphabet into the wind and then letting them fall into a logical order to create the Sunday edition of the Bismarck Tribune was amazing. Then, the Sunday edition of the Tribune created a publisher, editor, newspaper reporters, printing machines, paper, ink, and everyone and everything else that is needed to publish a daily newspaper. What was even more amazing to learn was that the Sunday edition of the Tribune infused all the knowledge the publisher, editor, and newspaper reporters needed to publish the Monday edition, Tuesday edition, etc. The height of the Tribune's wisdom was they created other daily newspapers around the state and the nation so that they would have competition. Ezra, you sure that is a science lab in your basement and not a meth lab? "

To JC wrote on Sep 11, 2007 11:43 AM:

" You have still failed to answer the question: Are religions other than the Catholic religion wrong? Can a Muslim go to Heaven? Are Muslims just as close to God as Catholics? Can Hindu's get to heaven? Will their heave be just as good as yours? The only way out of the mess you created for yourself, is to admit they are just as correct as you are. Other wise they must be wrong? Am I missing another possibility? When you say you preach tolerance, how can you define tolerance as saying their superstition is incorrect and yours is correct? If you adopted a Hindu, would you raise him as a Catholic? I would say that is intolerant. You cannot possibly answer these questions logically. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 11, 2007 11:37 AM:

" Good Morning JC, assuming things is a dangerous art. I am often guilty. If you knew me and my good works you would hardly accuse me of not trying to change things. As you might note here I am trying to rid our populace of the silly superstitions that have resulted in so many of our problems today. Also I have been willing to speak out about the evil perpetrated by religion. You on the other hand strike me as one willing to go along with this nonsense, because everyone else does. The most glaring example of this type of thinking was Nazi Germany. If the good people spoke up early in the game perhaps the mess could have been avoided. I have already seen how a president who ran on a religious platform has destroyed our constitution, and violated the law to wire tap us, and torture people illegally. Every time religious zeal gets out of control people suffer. Look at Iran or any other fundamentalist state. The best thing that ever happened in our country is the fundamentalist fighting with themselves. That is all that has saved us from a religious dictatorship. Some of the worse atrocities in history occurred when the church and government ganged up on the population. I hope you can see then need to fight against ignorance and superstition for the benefit of man kind. It has never served us well. "

What is a Norman? wrote on Sep 11, 2007 11:25 AM:

" I'm glad that you asked what a Norman is. The Normans are a splinter group of the Morman religion. They are different from the splinter group of the Mormans that allows a man to have many wives. The Normans allow a woman to have many husbands, and at least one of her husbands has to have the name "Norman." "

Online Editor wrote on Sep 11, 2007 10:49 AM:

" To Ezra: Please stick with a single screen name. "

JC wrote on Sep 11, 2007 10:47 AM:

" Good morning Ezra, I see God granted you another day on earth. I do believe and hope that all other religions are as true and valid to their followers as Catholicism is to me. I found out years ago that I wasn't getting much out of it, and that the only way to change that ,was to jump in and participate. I learned that I needed to give credit to those who had guts enough to try and make a difference. If they weren't doing it to my liking I'd either have to step up to the plate and help or sit down and shut-up. It seems to me the ones that complain the most about the choir are the ones that never open their mouths to change the sound of the choir. Maybe your a little bitter because no one has ever asked you to participate, to help make things better. You arm-chair quarter-backs,can always come up with the right answers, with no risk of personal injury. As for your Science, have you ever tried to pin a Scientist down? Their favorite come back is: it's not an "exact" or "absolute science". Enjoy your God given day Ezra! "

Scientifically Speaking wrote on Sep 11, 2007 10:44 AM:

" Every atom created in the big bang and subsequent supernovas still exists. What we know for sure is that the earth was once a molten rock surrounded by gases. As it cooled it became a harder rock surrounded by gasses. Somehow apparently quite by accident those atoms in those gasses and rocks (Iron, potassium, calcium, hydrogen, oxygen and all) became oceans then living things like trees and animals. It is easy to imagine. Like if you took a few thousand individual paper alphabet letters and tossed them to the wind over and over and they eventually landed in exactly the order of the Sunday edition of this paper. And that edition was then able to reproduce itself. I do not know why science would need religion to help answer any questions? "

WWJD wrote on Sep 11, 2007 9:11 AM:

" Scientist are very good at separating what they know, and what they don't know. On the other hand religious people can't seem to make the distinction between what is real, and what is not. That is why scientist use the word Theory. Here is a definition from the dictionary. 1. a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity. 2. a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual. You might note that scientist are mature enough to admit that their ideas may be conjectural. Religion is clearly conjectural, but religious people are to immature to admit the truth. Worse yet they insist on telling young people it is true, when it at best might be a theory. However, you may note theories are based on coherent thought, and there is nothing coherent about religious speculation. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 11, 2007 8:46 AM:

" JC, apparently you believe the other religions are true and valid. Why don't you just state that. Either they are correct and valid, or incorrect and wrong. Which is it? "

Suggestion wrote on Sep 11, 2007 8:44 AM:

" On the superstition page of the Bismarck Tribune why not do a nice article about the current movement among intellectuals to expose the fraud of religion. Karen Herzog could do a book review of GOD IS NOT GREAT, and THE GOD DELUSION. The article could list how much tax revenue is lost because of churches and show some of the outrageous expenditures made for church buildings in Bismarck. The article could focus on the excessive life styles of the TV preachers. Something could be written about the various frauds Pat Robertson, has been caught in. There could be some info on how all TV preachers have private jets, and live large. There could be some interviews with local people who have been bilked by preachers. Another section could focus on the devastating effect missionaries have had on other cultures. A doctor could be interviewed about how condoms could reduce the spread of AIDs. The history of religion could be explored. The article could tell how the Mormons killed white settlers and blamed the Indians. Something could be written about how the Catholics imprisoned young women in Ireland during the sixties and forced them to do laundry. It would spice up the Superstition page. "

haha wrote on Sep 11, 2007 7:28 AM:

" By the way again, i'm glad your grand children adore you. My kids, family , and friends adore me as well. I to am a history buff and love to read about history. The difference is I don't try to distort it to prop up my own beliefs. "

to wwjd wrote on Sep 11, 2007 7:27 AM:

" Yes what is wrong with simple honesty? Why is it that scientists make up a theory and call it fact because in reality they just aren't sure. Is it too hard for them to say they aren't sure? They really don't know if there was a big bang, they just think there may have been. They really don't know if there is global warming, they just think there could be and if it is happening they can't say for sure if it is human or something else, they just blame people becuase it is convenient. Yes a good dose of truth is in order. "

haha wrote on Sep 11, 2007 7:24 AM:

" again, nothing happens just becuase out of CHAOS, is that better? I never said I don't believe in a big bang, but something caused it. All the elements in the universe didn't just one day say hey, lets explode! I never said evolution isn't true, I said it is impossible for it to just happen on it's own. That would be like your car building itself. The level of organization in this world and in this universe didn't just happen. As to the Christian church not resembling anything of the past, I actually do have to agree with you. It doesn't and that is too bad. We should go back to that. However Jesus did in fact call himself the son of man, the chosen one, and plainly taught his disciples that he was the messiah. I'm not sure why you have the need to try to come on here to brag about your wealth, blame your parents for your shortfalls, and whatever else, but since you are on a comment section about the catholic mass, you are the one who should bug off. "

JC wrote on Sep 11, 2007 7:24 AM:

" To Anonymous whoever you are: I've never said I was any better off with my choice of religion than any Hindu, Islamic, or even Normon, whoever that is. If you look back to my post on 8/21 you'll find: JC wrote on Aug 21, 2007 11:59 AM: "I believe the true meaning of Catholic is: FOR THE GOOD OF ALL! We as Catholics, as parents and teachers need to instill in our children a respect for others, not prejudiced by what religion or faith a person associates themselves with." I'm afraid I was already on base before you threw the ball, maybe we'll meet in the home stretch! "

JC wrote on Sep 11, 2007 12:45 AM:

" To the person claiming that I've said I'm right and everyone else is wrong in their beliefs: please go back and read my post dated Aug 21, 11:59 a.m. I'll copy and paste what I said, since you probably won't take the time to check it out. I said "We as Catholics, as parents and teachers need to instill in our children a respect for others, not prejudiced by what religion or faith a person associates themselves with." Don't start telling me what I said, unless you can actually prove your point with a date and time. You'd also have more credibility if you had a name, not just an anonymous little whiner! God Bless you whatever faith youare! "

To: Again??? wrote on Sep 10, 2007 10:30 PM:

" This is me again. I am not going to apologize for writing my post in reponse to your post. If you want nothing to do with the Catholic Church, we place a post on a blog that has to do with whether having Latin Mass would divide or unite? If you don't want anyone to make any comment about your post in which you wrote about personal problems and personal issues, why bring your private life into a public blog? It is always sad to see a spoiled brat growing into becoming a spoiled adult. Everybody else gets blamed for their personal problems, for their unhappiness, and for their bad choices in life. "

To: to, to, to Again wrote on Sep 10, 2007 9:00 PM:

" This is a response by a reader of the "dialogue" between you two. You write that organization cannot come out of Chaos (you spelled it "Kaos,"). Actually the universe as it exists did not come out of chaos. It came from the singularity of the Big Bang, followed by about 10 billion years of evolution, which includes the 4.4 billion year evolution of our planet, Earth. It is all very simple, but wondrous. And scientifically proven. Set aside your religious notions based on old, discredited myths, and there is TRUTH in all its wonder and enlightenment! "

WWJD wrote on Sep 10, 2007 8:54 PM:

" We don't have an explanation for how the universe came into existence, so that means we can invent a God? Once we have invented God we can go ahead and invent a story about what he said and how he invented the Universe? Why not just say we don't know how it all came about? What is wrong with simple honesty? At one time people did not know what caused malaria. Now we know it is caused by mosquitoes. Lets try the same thing with this God business. Until we know, lets just say we don't know. "

To: to, to, to Again wrote on Sep 10, 2007 8:51 PM:

" It is spelled, "chaos." Tend to your own plate. "

To:To Again wrote on Sep 10, 2007 8:49 PM:

" Pardon this second response, but the more I think about your response, the angrier I get. Just who are you to give advice to anyone...especially if it involves your religion or your sanctimonious "touchy-feely" nonsense? I am very "OK" with who I am. I believe in the Big Bang and Evolution. I am an existentialist who believes that there is no god and no afterlife, but I choose to do the best I can in these circumstances by living life to the fullest extent. I am a wonderful employer...acknowledged as such by my employees. I am very involved in the community. My grandchildren adore me. And I study on a daily basis...mostly history, which includes the study of the real, historical Jesus and the early christian church, which has absolutely no semblance to the abomination that exists in our midsts, with its trappings, garish edifices, exclusionary dogma, and, worse, child abuse. From what you write you are unfamiliar with all this. Too bad. Jesus was a pretty cool dude, but he was not god and he didn't claim that he was. As to what you call the "child abuse" of my youth...my Dad's belt and my mother's "whack" of her slipper on my head...were probably appropriate at the time (at least in their minds), and very reinforcing, as I learned quickly to never repeat my mistake that brought on this response! Mom and Dad are long since dead. I love them still and revere them. So much for your pop psychology, influenced by our stupid modern society in which discipline is a thing of the past. So, once more...Bug Off! "

tototoagain wrote on Sep 10, 2007 8:18 PM:

" It would appear with your attitude that your father should have used the belt a little more, your mother should have used the slipper more, and the nuns probably should have disciplined you more because you come off as a spoiled little brat in your last post. Lets not forget you are the one posting on a comment section relating to the catholic church. We did not go to an athiest section to bug you. By the way, you say God doesn't exist, how do you explain everything here? The order of it all. It is my experience that this level of organization doesn't come from kaos or from thin air, something causes it. "

To Ezra is nuts wrote on Sep 10, 2007 6:58 PM:

" You might find this strange, but I am a socialist. I believe greedy rich people are what cause poverty. I do not look down at the poor, I do my utmost to help them. The poor have been the biggest victims of the Church. The Catholic Church has always been the poor mans worst enemy. First the church makes sure the poor have no effective birth control. There is no surer way to create poverty than by creating big families. Second the Church encourages poor people to give money. The Church waste the money on gaudy buildings instead of providing for the poor. When the Cathedral were built in France millions of people were forced into poverty to pay for them. Nothing eliminates poverty like education. By spreading the superstitious nonsense of religion the Church thwarts efforts to educate people so they can think rationally. The Church knows educated people don't fall for the nonsense and lend themselves to the bilking process. Any honest student of history would know that religion has created way more poverty than it eliminated. Go to any country in South America that is dominated by the Catholic Religion and you will find some of the poorest people on the planet. The Catholic Church has never taken a strong stand on the issue of income distribution. If you think I support the rich, you have not been reading this blog. I want taxes raised on the wealthy, and if that includes me so be it. "

To JC wrote on Sep 10, 2007 6:12 PM:

" Doesn't it seem strange to you that you would consider a Hindu as a mislead person, you would consider a Normon a mislead person, You would consider an Islamic a mislead person, but you are certain you are not. Each of them has a fantasy, just like you do, yet they are all wrong, and you are right. How can this be? Each of them has a book, each of them has invisible beings, each of them has rituals, yet they are wrong, and you are correct. Isn't it strange, that they are what their dad was and they are wrong, but you are what your dad was and you are right? What a coincidence that of all the religions to choose from you got the right one? What a stroke of good luck. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 10, 2007 5:42 PM:

" I am Nuts. I don't believe in a virgin birth, people capable of walking on water, turning water into wine, an Earth entirely flooded by water, an a person being swallowed by a whale, and you have the audacity to say I have a problem. I believe in science, logic, and the scientific method. You believe in revelation, tradition, and a constantly changing word from God. You believe in saints, miracles, Satan, heaven, and hell, and you tell me I have a problem. You believe in supernatural beings and you tell me I am nuts. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 10, 2007 5:34 PM:

" Read carefully. I am one of nine children, six of the nine are millionaires. I did not say I am one of them. Go back and check, I may or may not be. My point is we all did just fine without the religious silliness, in fact I think we did better because we learned how to think independently. The proof is in the pudding. I don't think I am superior, or inferior. I think people who are willing to face reality are superior. People who believe in mythology, and other man made fantasy such as religion clearly are not very smart, or very logical, or have some sort of delusional problem. It goes without saying. I think most people who knew some one who believed in UFOs, fairies, or Dragons would consider those people mentally challenged. People who believe in Satan, and the other religious mythology are no different. If they are please explain. My whole point is that religion was designed to manipulate and control the peasants, and other people of limited intellect. It was invented by the upper class in every society, and it worked. When are people going to quit letting themselves be victimized? "

To: To Again wrote on Sep 10, 2007 5:08 PM:

" Who asked you to enter my life? I was made in the image of god? I don't believe in god! And your prayers are a complete waste of your time. You are just like all the rest of the religious in your self-appointed role to "straighten" out others. Bug Off! "

ezra is nuts wrote on Sep 10, 2007 4:49 PM:

" JC, several of us have been trying to reason with ezra but it does no good. 6 millionaires, well that's just great ezra. I hope all that money makes you happy when you are dead and gone. I hope trying to make people feel inferior to you makes you feel better because you are so obviously smarter than those of us who believe in a God. By the way, I went to college to, 4 years. I learned a lot about life and everything else, a great experience. I also learned that not everyone who goes to college is instanly intelligent just as not everyone who doesn't go is stupid. Once again you make judgements and group people. So mr. millionaire Ezra, what do you think about poor people. Do you look down on them with an upturned nose? "

JC wrote on Sep 10, 2007 2:06 PM:

" I've never mentioned Iraq, Bush, or 9/11. I'm no leftist. At least put your cyber-name in so I know who's attacking! Thanks "

To JC wrote on Sep 10, 2007 1:54 PM:

" There may be a God, and there may have been a Jesus. Those two beliefs would not disqualify you from rational thought. However, if you believe in Satan, virgin birth, walking on water, water into wine ect. I would be concerned about your ability to think rationally. The Discovery channel just did a documentary on the great flood of the Bible, and concluded there is no evidence what so ever that it took place. I would say if you believe it took place, you are irrational. There has never been any archaeological evidence that the Jews wandered the desert for forty years. If you believe that I would say you have a problem. All things are possible, just not probable. Good advice I would say. "

To Ezra wrote on Sep 10, 2007 1:40 PM:

" I had no idea we were being addressed by such someone with such credentials! Six millionaires, two lawyers, that's awesome. To bad though about the three kids that didn't quite make the grade, probably married to Catholics or something horrible. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 10, 2007 12:54 PM:

" Dearest Grumper: You are getting me mixed up with someone else. My father made a very good decision. My father kept my family away from religion. He said that until the age of twelve we should not be subjected to such nonsense. It was the best thing he ever did. We all went to college and out of nine kids six are millionaires, and two are lawyers. I grew up with and had a lot of Catholic friends. I know what they were subjected to. One thing that amazed me was that the Catholics dumped their failures into the public school. I have never been a church member, or baptized. but can quote the Bible and scripture with the best of them. How you can stand up for abusive Church figures is amazing. I suppose a little sodomy by a priest never hurt anyone either? You say the Church has changed, so has the Klan, and the Nazis of today say they have made some improvements also. I would not join any of them based on their past. Who in their right mind would want to be part of an organization with such a sordid past? You must be disparate for something to believe in. "

JC wrote on Sep 10, 2007 12:18 PM:

" Ezra, just because I believe in God and Jesus as our savior, is no reason to assume I'm weak and unable to make rational decisions. These lynchings you speak of, I've never been at one,so maybe you can tell us, is it caused by the weak followers or could it just be possible it's actual cause is the cowardly antagonist in the background,saying " hang him, hang him", or maybe "Crucify him". As for slavery; I can't make the correlation there at all. But I will ask around and see if any of our parishoners are keeping slaves or trading them. I don't remember ever hearing of any church having a SLAVE SALE! "

To JC wrote on Sep 10, 2007 11:49 AM:

" Some of you lefties keep repeating the nonsense about how many people believe Saddam attacked us on 911. Forget 911. The first Iraq War was never over. After the first War to kick him out of Kuwait he continued to gas Kurds, shoot at our planes in the no-fly zone, and pay the families of suicide bombers that blew themselves up in Israel. You still want to claim Bush is bad and religious people elected him. No matter how much you must twist the facts or how far back in history you must go. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 10, 2007 11:01 AM:

" Ezra; So you got a little battered child syndrome. Only in your case it was not just parents on alcohol or drugs. History is full of people trying to change bad situations. Most of them were trying to change adult on adult problems. Jesus, Braveheart, George Washington, you could go on and on listing people who wanted change. In your era there were many other parents in both Catholic and other schools that wanted them to quit beating on the kids. Now it has gone so far the other way that the teachers in most big city schools in this country are afraid to break up a school-ground fight. I had my tonsils taken out at a Catholic Hospital in the 1940’s and still remember being yelled at when I came off the gas they used. The gas left a person sick, often vomiting and I did not know it was the middle of the night when I woke up disoriented. Back then you never ring a buzzer for a Catholic nurse in the middle of the night unless you are dead or dying. Women had it worse. If a woman was about to deliver a baby and the doctor was not there they would tie her legs together until the doctor arrived. But all those old battles have been fought and won and now we have a better relationship with our churches and schools. You must remember the days when Catholic Sisters wore Habits all the time. Times have changed. You must be aware that most people nowadays are comfortable with their churches. They walk in voluntarily. The only question is whether or not Latin Mass is a step forward or backward. "

To JC wrote on Sep 10, 2007 8:59 AM:

" Good point JC. However, you might look at history and see that most progress was made by people who went against the grain. Tell what conformist and blind followers ever accomplished? It was the 84% you refer to that went along with slavery, it was the so called silent majority that brought up Richard Nixon. On the day I say I am happy to be just like everyone else, I will give you the gun to shoot me. The most dangerous group ever in history were the go alongs. The go alongs brought us Hitler and countless other tyrants. It is the people who took a different path the made all the progress in the universe. The fact that currently forty nine percent of Americans still think Iraq attacked us on 911 says a whole lot about the herd mentality, and how they fall prey to people like Bush. When one goes along with the crowd, one can be assured you are going no where. Remember lynchings relied on people like you, who just did what everyone else was doing. Nothing scares me more than someone trying to justify the lemming philosophy. "

To Grumper wrote on Sep 10, 2007 6:13 AM:

" Like most fundies you carefully select what you read and make sure it agrees with your preset notion of the universe. A good book I would like to suggest for all fundies is UNDER THE BANNER OF HEAVEN. This book chronicles a couple of murders committed by some Mormons who believed God told them to do it. The murders involved an ex-wife and a two year old. The book clearly lays out the whole history of the Mormon Church. Any fundy that would take the time to read the book would see how a religion is invented. Starting in the 1800's this whole cult has risen to be one of the biggest cults next to the Catholic group. I am always amazed how fundies can point at the Mormons and say " They just made it up but ours is real". Give me a break. Fire away Grumper. "

JC wrote on Sep 10, 2007 6:09 AM:

" To Ezra: If churches closed their doors and everyone came around to your way of thinking; who would you be against? You are obviously a free spirit that wants to go their own way and not follow the crowd ( the 84% of us who are believers), where would that leave you? You'd be right back in amoungst us, the uneducated, the fools, and the hypocrites. You would have to find some new reason to dislike us and what we stand for. You and Art would have to find new uncommon ground, to throw rocks from. Yes, I'm sure you would find that ground, it's your nature. The scourge you inflict upon society is virtually nothing, compared to what our Lord went through for US in his last hours on earth. God bless you!! "

Ezra wrote on Sep 9, 2007 9:30 PM:

" If the Churches closed their doors and the money was used intelligently we would have a fantastic country. Instead of six churchs in every little town we could have one nice facility where people could exercise get good medical care and work on projects to help each other. Instead each group that has a little different superstition builds their own building and heats it seven days a week, while it is used one. The Catholic sex scandal alone went over a billion. Think of the money stolen and wasted by TV preachers like Pat Robertson. Look at the waste of money in Richardton. Think about the amount of money people are paying to churchs that cold be put to so many good uses. The U. S. ranks number thirteen in health care among all the industrialized countries. This show how well bleeding off money for superstition works. Think what could be done to educate children if on Sundays they went to museums and other learning centers instead of having their heads filled with fables. What a scourge we have inflicted on ourselves. "

To: Again??? wrote on Sep 9, 2007 9:28 PM:

" Sounds like you have had a very unhappy childhood. And if you are an adult now, you sound like an unhappy adult. None of us is able to change one's past, but we can change our attitude toward our past and see things from a new perspective. From what you say in your posts, you didn't feel loved by your parents, priests and nuns. Hopefully, you do feel loved by God. If you don't feel loved by God, my prayer is that you learn to love yourself. You have been made in the image and likeness of God, and God has a plan for your life. There is a purpose for why you were born whether you know that purpose or not. Use your gifts and talents to find meaning for your life. If your childhood was as filled with physical, emotional and mental abuse as you say was the case, then you need to seek help to work through whatever harm was done to you, so that you don't use abusive behaviors in dealing with other people. Life is too short to waste your life on destructive patterns of living. My prayers are with you. "

To: To Again wrote on Sep 9, 2007 5:42 PM:

" I am now a totally recovered former catholic, as in "non-believer." As to my education, my dad used his belt, my mom used her slipper, and the nuns used rulers and their fists. It all sank in rather well. "

To: Honest Omar wrote on Sep 9, 2007 4:48 PM:

" If all the churches closed their doors there would be a lot of soup lines and various programs that would end. The socialistic countries in Europe pay twice as much as we do for gasoline and other staples because most of the price is taxes. It is always more expensive when the government takes over everything because so many high paid administrators are appointed by whichever political party is in control. Before we change anything very much lets have a test. Lets let the government take over the Salvation Army and see how cheaply they can run it. If the government can run the Salvation Army cheaper and better then we can talk more about the agnostic socialist book writers you worship. "

Honest Omar wrote on Sep 9, 2007 1:09 PM:

" As a dead language it is altogether fitting and proper that Latin be the language of something else dead and irrelevant - the catholic mass. "

To: Again???? wrote on Sep 9, 2007 12:48 PM:

" You weren't clear on the reason or reasons why you remain bitter towards the Catholic Church. You said that the priests and nuns messed up your head. I also attended Catholic schools. I was taught how to think, not what to think. There is a big difference between these two approaches to Catholic education. Were you expecting the priests and nuns to ask you what values and doctrines they should be teaching? By what authority did your parents have the right to tell you to clean your room as a youngster, to pick up after yourself, make you go to school, eat your vegetables, take out the garbage, tell you not to beat up your siblings, etc.? Very likely, you saw your parents as having messed up your head. Your parents, no doubt, said to you hundreds of times that they were merely teaching you values and disciples, but a little voice in your head kept telling you that your parents were deliberately messing with your head. If adults failed to teach you how to think when you were a youngster, who is stopping you now from learning how to think? "

To: waralan wrote on Sep 9, 2007 10:15 AM:

" We have a “war game” left over from the Middle Ages. It is called Chess, and has army’s, castles, knights, king and queen. It also has two “bishops”. They cover or attack at an angle and only on their “color”. What is a Bishop doing in an old war game? You must have studied this? What should all Catholics know about this? "

Teach wrote on Sep 8, 2007 9:23 PM:

" To waralan; With your help the English language is almost dead, or at least gravely ill! Slow down, think more, type less. "

waralan wrote on Sep 8, 2007 5:50 PM:

" I would like to adress this to all my catholic--and the lowercase c isn't a typo--that the the catholics burned a number of people at the stake. What were their crime? They dared translate the Bible fron Latin into a a language that the common man spoke. Of course, then these people could read the Bible for themselves, instead of being spoonfed by some false priests who didn't understand/care what it said. Even now the catholic church is teaching false doctrine and not standing up to what it preaches. However that is a topic for futucture discussion. In short, let the people gleam what little they can. After all, Latin is a dead language. "

To: waralan wrote on Sep 8, 2007 3:39 PM:

" Europe was being invaded from all sides and had internal battles. It was not just the Mongols and the Muslims. Loyalty was a very big issue. It will happen again most likely. Wait and watch as more and more of Europe’s present Islamic population become “home grown sleeper cells”. "

waralan wrote on Sep 8, 2007 2:45 PM:

" One must consider all the people that the catholics burned at the stake because they dear translanslate the bible into the language of a common person. Do we really want big brother in Rome telling us how to conduct our services. No keep the masses as they are: In the language of the common person. Besides Latin is a dead language. "

fp wrote on Sep 8, 2007 12:30 PM:

" The only differance between fundamental christians and fundamental muslims is one throws bombs and the other condems non believers.Who am I kidding there is no differance.Both groups are so removed from the truth it is not funny.Live and let live and we all get along..... "

To: Enron and the Church wrote on Sep 8, 2007 11:14 AM:

" You people mix apples and oranges and come up with plum juice. Enron was caught dirty all the way to the top. Various churches have had a few incidents. It would be more like comparing a corporation to its sub-corporations. And this nonsense of going back hundreds of years to Galileo is silly. When the Cardinals had Galileo sign a confession it was that he was told not to print and he printed. The rack was not used on him he was just “shown the rack as if it was to be used” then put under house arrest (see The Ascent of Man by Bronowski). You can buy it really cheap at bn.com by clicking the used and out of print books. It has his entire confession and many pages on that subject. Times have changed and history has its time and place. Today we know that the sun is not fixed and rotates around in the Milky Way with millions of similar stars. The Milky Way travels away from the Big Bang. Next year maybe we will find that the entire universe is spinning. "

Enron and the Church wrote on Sep 8, 2007 9:24 AM:

" When Enron got caught in a massive crooked endeavor, people went to jail, the business was finished. End of Enron. When the Catholic Church gets caught, no one goes to jail, the enterprise continues. If we applied the same laws to the Church business that we do private business, we would all be better off. "

Soapbox wrote on Sep 8, 2007 2:37 AM:

" To: Sweet Jesus. They did not just report him to the Romans. They grabbed him at about midnight and took him to one of the high priests house where they beat and interrogated him most of the night. They gave him to their buddies the Romans the next day. The moneychangers had a monopoly. All who entered the city were forced to turn in Roman money and use only Jewish money during the religious festivities. At a percentage naturally. Probably the Roman Soldiers got a kickback to look the other way. (Not the only time in history that civic leaders collaborated with the latest conquerors for selfish reasons). "

Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 8, 2007 1:28 AM:

" Ezra writes "Why does God want people to build temples?" Very simple answer to a very simple question. Why do astronomers have observatories? Why have libraries? Why do singers have soundproof recording studios? We are thinking beings and we want the very best for each endeavor. One minister began his ministry using an old drive-in theater that was not being used in the daytime. It provided a place to park and a small portable speaker. It was very good but eventually his Crystal Cathedral was better. Dr Robert Schuller had provided fine leadership and the people of his church helped build his ministry. It does not measure up to the gold and fine artwork and Swiss Guards at the Vatican, but they have been providing Christian leadership much longer. Does a choir sound better in a vacant field or inside a well-built building. We build buildings for each purpose because we are more comfortable. We would rather hear the beautiful music echo off the walls than be bit by insects and pelted by rain and snow. (And Galileo was forgiven by the church and that is old news, get over it). "

The catholic church wrote on Sep 7, 2007 9:42 PM:

" Is there an institution in the history of man that has a more sordid history? We preach the love of Jesus. But don't be gay, divorced, pregnant out-of-wedlock...or a Jew (we just love persecuting and killing Jews... the bastards crucified Jesus(!). And don't use a condom! That is a mortal sin, since it impedes procreation (the only reason for sex)...even if you want to use a condom to keep from getting Aids! And, give us your children, so we can educate them early in the "Way"...and sexually abuse them! And don't talk to us about science. We made that coward Galileo recant...apparently he was more interested in continuing to live than to stand up for that stupid notion of his that the Sun does not revolve around the Earth. Idiot! Oh, and we are now relieved that Benedict XVI has cleared up the obvious senile statements by John-Paul II that evolution is a fact. It is not! Oh, and that nonsense about how we always change doctrine for expediency: the people who ate meat on Fridays prior to our changing the rules...they committed mortal sins at the time, but we kind of messed up on that, so they are OK now; those infants in "Limbo," oh, well...never mind that, we have recently had a meeting of the cardinals, the "princes" of the church, and they have now decided that Limbo does not exist; the same might also apply to "purgatory, but we are not yet sure of that. None of this changes the basic fact that if you are not catholic you will die "unsaved," and will rot in hell forever! So wise up and get with us before it is too late! PS. We prefer those who are "brain-dead," as they make the best converts. "

To: Again???? wrote on Sep 7, 2007 9:40 PM:

" Victims of abuse by representatives of the church deserve to get help for their healing. Betraying the trust and power that church representatives have is always evil. No amount of money will ever bring healing to the victims. Money cannot buy healing. What you didn't mention in your post is the millions that the lawyers will be getting from the $198 million for "lawyers' fees." What the newspaper reports failed to mention is that more children are sexually abused by married men than by unmarried clergy. What help are these children receiving? "

Jesus is Liberal? wrote on Sep 7, 2007 9:28 PM:

" Using words such as liberal, conservative, or progressive to describe Jesus are not accurate. These words are political labels. Jesus peached and taught a radical message, which means that He was speaking about the root or the foundation for right living. His teachings didn't destroy the Law of Moses that we find in the Old Testament, but rather He fulfilled the Old Covenant. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 7, 2007 9:00 PM:

" Ok, heres today's question for fundies: Why does God want people to build temples, churches, or other edifices? Why does God need human beings to tell him he is great? Given the choice between building useless edifices or using the money to do some real good, why does God want the edifice? It strikes me that God must have a problem with self doubt if he needs little people on Earth to tell him how great he is. Some one please take on this question. Grumper, you can sit this test out, because you already answered. I know you think building pyramids adds to the economy. "

AGAIN???!!! wrote on Sep 7, 2007 8:58 PM:

" So now the diocese of San Diego coughs up $198 MILLION for its priest sex scandal! Let's do some math here: $198 million, plus $660 million for the LA scandal...sweet Jesus(!) that is a huge pile of money just to endemnify the victims in SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA! What figure is the good ol' catholic church at now...$2 Billion? I was born and raised catholic and was the first altar boy in my class, because I was the first to master the Latin responses. Boy oh boy! I wish I had been molested, so I could share in this bread! Unfortunately the nuns and priests messed up my head not my body. So I remain very bitter but financially unindemnified. Stupid me. "

Sweet Jesus! wrote on Sep 7, 2007 8:27 PM:

" Just who is this Jesus the latest posters describe? Liberal, conservative, wouldn't drive an SUV, would drive an SUV? You are all wrong! Jesus was a first century Jew. He spoke Aramaic (the Gospels are all written in Greek). He preached adherence to the Jewish law. He was an apocolypticist, meaning that he expected god to intervene in human affairs in his own lifetime by sending "The Son of Man" to overcome the forces of darkness and institute a new and better world (as is most obvious, this never happened...it hasn't happened yet, so one might doubt Jesus "omniscience"). He never called himself "The Son of Man," but later the believers in his resurrection, who never knew him did. He did not found a new religion. "Apocolypticism" was a rather common belief in his time. By the second century his believers turned away from his preachings and instead of following his religion made him into a religion! Ergo the mass, the dogma, the church, the hierarchy...ad nauseum. As to one poster's comment about him overthrowing the tables of "the rich" in the Temple in Jerusalem during Passover. That is most likely what he did, and the Sadducees who were the High Priests, took offense and told the Romans that he needed to be executed as a rabble rouser, which the Romans were only too happy to do, since they were responsible for keeping the peace. But the "money changers" were not evil people. They were NECESSARY to the functioning of the temple sacrifices! Jews came from all over the known world to worship by sacrificing animals. The "money changers" changed their money into the local currency so they could buy animals for sacrifice! Ever used an ATM in a foreign country? The bottom line is don't read 21st century ideas and practices into the life of one Jew in 1st century Palestine. By the way, he will not return. He has been dead, now, 2,000 years. But if he could somehow know what has been done since in his name he would puke. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 7, 2007 5:23 PM:

" I enjoyed your post Soapbox. It was well written, and well thought out. It was like a breath of fresh air after dealing with Grumper. "

Soapbox wrote on Sep 7, 2007 4:02 PM:

" To Online Editor, I notice when I use my old Microsoft word program I can copy and paste to your comments without error. However when I use Word Perfect 10 my quotation marks become question marks. Interesting. "

Soapbox wrote on Sep 7, 2007 2:14 PM:

" EDITOR'S NOTE: Please keep to the word limit. So Ezra claims to know what Jesus would want then objects to his own distorted version. Perhaps what Jesus stood for back then is exactly what he would stand for now. A higher morality and people getting along. Turn the other cheek (with neighbor), love thy neighbor, good Samaritan, etc. There does seem to be an inference that he rejected his father?s religion and started his own religion beginning in his teenage years? This is very rebellious behavior and not really conservative. Turning over money changers tables is not a ?conservative? values thing. However his emphasis on morality means he was not a liberal as we now define the word. Need someone with a theology degree to straighten this all out. When he made about 25 gallons of wine for the wedding reception no one was driving motor vehicles home. When he dumped the money changers tables the rich guys put a bounty on him. The Romans did not go out and arrest him a small rich religious group did a midnight citizens arrest Today it would be referred to as assault and battery and kidnaping. The romans had made a deal with the rich town leaders permitting them to continue to run the town as long as the Romans were the courts, police, and got the taxes. That resulted in a classic example of ?false witness? and uncaring court system. Non of this was missed by this countries founding fathers. We have strict laws concerning private persons arrests and our court system demands a jury of our peers. Today bounties can only be put out by authorized legal process. A long book could be written about what Jesus taught us both verbally and by example. Some say he changed the world. Not likely anyone knows just how many ?bases? he touched on his Home Run to martyrdom. I think he would not want mass done in the language of Rome. "

money for the schools wrote on Sep 7, 2007 1:39 PM:

" Ezra, did you know that the schools recieving the most money in this state happen to be doing the worst? New Town, Mandaree, Ft. Yates. Education, counter to your liberal ideals, is not totally dependent on the amount of funding. It is dependent on good teachers, administration, and students and families that care enough about the education to get it. Throw all the money you want at problems, without the proper plan it is just a waste. "

tax breaks wrote on Sep 7, 2007 1:37 PM:

" by the way, what is your definition of rich? $50,000 per year for a family of 4? $30,000? The last round of tax cuts provided an entirly new tax bracket for the poorest americans, 10%. That was a cut of 5%. Meanwhile the richest did get a tax break fo about 2%. "

was jesus libral wrote on Sep 7, 2007 1:34 PM:

" I wasn't calling him a conservative now was I? I called him a moderate. You bet he was all for giving of your time money and talent. However he endorsed giving money to the temple and to God. Would he drive a hummer? I doubt he would drive. By the way you dont have to be a liberal to save gas, I know many conservatives who drive small efficient cars. No he wouldn't endorse torture, nor would he endorse the killing of thousands of people in terrorist attacks. By the way if liberals are so concerned about the enviroment why does Al Gore travel in a motorcade and fly on a private gulfstream jet, John Edwards drives huge SUV's. John Travolta doesn't stop at gulstreams, oh no he flied 707's by himself. Again I tell you, wether you admit it or not, there is stupidity and selfishness on both sides of the aisle and Jesus wouldn't have any of it. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 7, 2007 1:03 PM:

" Sure, Jesus would provide tax breaks to the rich, while he took money away from the schools. Jesus would support the drug lobby and make sure there was no competitive bidding. Jesus would be against national health care. Jesus would be all in favor of the average CEO making 354 million dollars a year. If this is your Jesus keep him. Turning water into wine and feeding the multitudes hardly seemed like a conservative program to me. A conservative Jesus would have lived in a McMansion, driven a hummer instead of a donkey, and worn designer sandals. That wasn't the Jesus in my Sunday school. I don't think he wouldl have supported the policy of torture endorsed by Bush. Water boarding doesn't seem like something Jesus would have endorsed. If Jesus was a conservative I don't think they would have depicted him with long hair and a beard. It seems like he would have been a white shirt guy with a blackberry. "

Nickie wrote on Sep 7, 2007 12:57 PM:

" 'Getchur programs here! Fundies! Liberals! Bushies! Progressives! Democrats! Radical Right-Wingers! Ya' can't tell 'em apart without a program!' Labels, labels everywhere and not a drop to ... (whoops!). ; ) "

was jesus a liberal? wrote on Sep 7, 2007 12:43 PM:

" Well lets look at how liberal Jesus was. Yes he brought a new covenant and changed the religion of the day. He was agains divorce, he was against murder aka abortion and euthenasia. He was all for helping anyone and everyone who needed it. He believed in God and his religion. He said turn the other cheek but he did show signs of getting angry at certain things, like selling sacrafices in the temple for instance. It would seem to me that Jesus was more of a moderate than a liberal. Unlike todays liberal, Jesus had convictions that didn't waver with the breeze. He truly loved everyone, it wasn't just a matter of expression such as it is with most people today. If you want to see what Jesus was probably like and what he would do in today's world, look up Mother Theresa. The minute any one of us can give of ourselves like her, that is when we would be worthy of being called christlike. Otherwise, we are all just sinners trying to repent. "

liberals wrote on Sep 7, 2007 12:29 PM:

" Actually, I am doing it to show how stupid either end of the spectrum is. We have Ezra blaming all the ills of the world on religion and grouping people he disagrees with in to this nice tight little box called fundies. Well isn't it just as moronic as those who really are way too far right lumping people they disagree with as liberals? The whole illustration is to show how much alike Ezra and those like him are to those they dislike so much. "

Saywhat? wrote on Sep 7, 2007 11:34 AM:

" Two drunks were fighting on the street corner. A third drunk walks up and says “hey, what are you guys fighting about, maybe I can help”. They stop fighting for a minute and ask “Is that the sun or the moon up there”. The third drunk ponders for a minute and reply’s “I don’t know, I am new in town”./////// Two drunks are fighting on a street corner. A third drunk walks up and asks “what are you guys fighting about, maybe I can help”. They stop fighting and one asks “is that a church or a firehouse”. Third drunk says “I don’t know, I’m new in town”.////// Two drunks are fighting on a street corner. A third drunk walks up and asks “what are you guys fighting about, maybe I can help. One drunk asks “Do you believe in science or religion”. Third drunk says “give me a break, what are you really fighting about, it must be Latin Mass..... right”? "

fp wrote on Sep 7, 2007 10:50 AM:

" to the person who signs his name liberals: tell me you are doing a comedy skit please. If "heaven" is filled with the likes of you give me hell. You and other religious people seem to be the most hate filled pious beings I have ever seen. You are very ungodly.Jesus was a liberal so watch what you say.Good grief. "

Nickie wrote on Sep 7, 2007 10:05 AM:

" To: To Nickie - '....as a public service.' LOL! I like that! ; ) I wish I could remember who said, 'If you've ever wondered what an old-time church revival was like, just attend a modern political convention.' "

To Nickie wrote on Sep 7, 2007 8:53 AM:

" I agree with your comments. I fight with the fundies as a public service. Both politics and religion have stirred up a lot of hate around the world. Religion has been responsible for huge waste of money, the spread of disease, and wars all over the world. The same could be said for politics. I don't think it is practical to operate without political systems, but I do think we can eliminate the religious nonsense. A lot about politics is dishonest, but everyone has been conditioned to expect this. On the other hand religious people lie to children, and for no reason make great efforts to spread their nonsense indiscriminately. Politics has been cleaned up somewhat by disclosure. If religions were forced to account for the money even to the extent politicians do, then many of the abuses would disappear. Many politicians have been imprisoned for violating the law, because there are laws about what politicians can do. Religious people are free to lie, bilk, and do all the devious things they want without the fear of any punishment. Look at the money Pat Robertson has stolen from the simple minded, and the kingdom he has built. Religion is the only legalized thievery we have. Politicians are regulated, even if it is ineffective. "

What Would Jesus Do? wrote on Sep 7, 2007 8:40 AM:

" Over the years my wife and I have invited many travelers to spend the night at our house. These are people we meet who are traveling the Lewis and Clark trail. Some travel by bike, and others by kayak. The adventurers are happy to have a good home cooked meal, do their laundry, and have a nice bed. We have met a lot of good people this way and become good friends. Sometimes these people stop at the local library to use the internet. The local librarians are mostly fundies. It is not unusual for the librarians to suggest to travelers they check with us for a place to stay. One day I asked the librarians "Why don't you just invite them to your house?". They replied that they would be afraid to take in strangers. This story illustrates to me the whole problem with organized religion. It is not about helping people unselfishly, but about buildings, and soothing fears of uncertainty. I don't need God to know that helping people is a good thing. I find joy in it, and do not need to be motivated by the promise of heaven, or the threat of hell. "

Nickie wrote on Sep 7, 2007 8:22 AM:

" To: To Nickie - I should have said 'take any post' instead of take 'your' post; wasn't intending on focusing on you. Replace the words Catholic, Baptist, fundie, whatever with Democrats, Republicans, liberals, whatever. Replace the word religion with politics. It flows! Funny how some are so quick to embrace one (politics or religion) and reject the other when the control and membership structure of both is so similar. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 7, 2007 8:19 AM:

" I agree with the writer about the faith section. It could contain something interesting about science, or other real news. I also feel cheated. It is like so many of the canned fluff articles. Why doesn't the paper have a section that tells what rational people are doing. Every once in a while they could run a section about fundy fighters and tell how people are exposing the frauds of television evangelist. A good reporter could do an article about elderly people in Bismarck being bilked by churches. I found a web site called "Fundies say the Darndest Things". It would be a great addition to the Tribune. I get my real news online by reading the New York Times. It is amazing the variety of articles they have, and rarely do they stoop to pandering to fundies. One problem with the Tribune is that they know they are in the heartland of fundies, and it pays to pander to them. They would lose a lot of readers if they had some intellectual articles that might confuse the fundies with reality. Look at these post and you can see science and biology are not on the fundies reading list. Perhaps they could do a section on local miracles. How come none ever happen here. Does God know Bismarck exist? "

Nickie wrote on Sep 7, 2007 8:10 AM:

" To: To Nickie - Now, take each instance of 'religion' or 'religious' in your post and replace it with 'politics' or 'political'. Take each instance of 'fundie' and replace it with a political party or stance. Fun stuff! I have little time for either. "

liberals wrote on Sep 7, 2007 12:13 AM:

" Ezra, Libralism is a disease that only good life experience can cure. I'm not talking the hippy pot smoking life experience either, but actual get out and work hard life experience. Oh wait, a liberal doesn't know what hard work is, they would rather take from everyone else and tell us all what to do. Hmmm. By the way, isn't it odd that more people support the president right now than support congress? Check the polls. Yup, I sure can see how it is much better to be a holier than though liberal. By the way, if you speak with most traditional "Fundies" and especially those in the order of st. pius the X , the group this article refers to. I will guarantee you, they are more inclined to believe Bush caused the towers to fall than to back bush. In fact they hate him as much as you liberals do. Maybe you should check some facts before lumping people together and casting stones. Also, leave grumpy alone, you know he is kicking you butt all over the place in this debate and you are just looking foolish trying to defend yourself. "

BILL G-A-R-R wrote on Sep 6, 2007 11:05 PM:

" Oh my GOD!!!! Just stumbled on this site. Please form a circle and commence firing. "

To: Century Baptist Church wrote on Sep 6, 2007 10:53 PM:

" As a recovering Catholic, now a non-believer, I have never undestood the Baptists and such ilk. Life is tough. So...no beer, no dancing, no card playing, church ALL THE TIME, no rock & roll...well...seemingly, no nothing? Oh, I guess there is the constant prayer and praise for god, which will gain you...what...an eternity of no beer, no dancing, no card playing, and singing "Hosanna" for all eternity. I don't believe in hell. but I would rather be there with my friends than with you! "

Bismarck Tribune Thursday "Faith" Section wrote on Sep 6, 2007 10:46 PM:

" Here is a novel question: why is this piece of fluff offered up every Thursday? I am a non-believer, but pay my Tribune subscription regularly... so why am I subjected to this weekly nonsense...and do I deserve a rebate for having to throw this into the garbage...you know...for recycling? In the last two weeks we have had to suffer two articles: one about a pair of brainwashed kids who want to convert Japan to their way of thinking, even though the Japanese have had their own religion for thousands of years (but, never mind that these sappy kids are right and they are all wrong, which was implied in the article!), and this latest crap about god building the new Century Baptist Church. Oh, and let us not forget, Grael Gannon's semi-weekly columns -- ON FRIDAY-- that appear as editorials, and not subject to any blog response, that he claims are a historical analysis of the bible, but, in fact, are his views of religion...by the way, evangelical religion, since he teaches at Shiloh. So we can be certain of his historical perspective! To the "Bismarck Tribune:" you won a Pullitzer Prize once; do you think you can do it again with what you present as "news?" "

Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 6, 2007 10:32 PM:

" To: "I checked the source" (or Ezra). Obviously you either were not reading the news back then or you have a very bad memory. Obviously you did not try very hard to read any of those articles. Obviously you did not do your own search. You would rather rant one-line nonsense than check. Now go find the article "Nixon Negotiating For Oil". Then, you do not even need to read the entire article. Use your Edit drop down menu and click on "find on this page". Simply put in the word oil. "

To: Century Baptist Church wrote on Sep 6, 2007 9:34 PM:

" How dare you criticize us! We are the chosen people of god and you are obviously an atheist! And we believe in Pastor Stork, who tells us we are the chosen people of Bismarck! Why should we pay taxes for our beliefs? You are what is wrong with this world, not us "saved" ones. Hope you have a happy life in hell. "

I checked the source wrote on Sep 6, 2007 9:30 PM:

" Dear Grumper I checked the source of your China material, and like so much of your spinning the articles did not support what you said. Anyone can read them and quickly see you added a bit of salt and pepper to spice up the story. There is no mention anywhere I could find of China shipping oil to the United States. As someone else put it, you are all over the place, and a lot of the place doesn't even exist. "

To: Century Baptist Church wrote on Sep 6, 2007 9:24 PM:

" I totally agree with you! I almost vomitted when I read the article...all that "god" nonsense about "he,,,or should that really be she" built this church. Really? I drove by there quite frequently while this project was underway...and it appeared to me that it was being built by contractors. Never saw god anywhere. But since I am not Baptist, perhaps I am missing something. "

Online Editor wrote on Sep 6, 2007 9:11 PM:

" To readers: I frequently have to add spaces in the Web links that are posted to force them to break or wrap with the other comments. Because of this, the links may not work when copied and pasted into a browser. To make the link work, simply check the address in your Web browser and remove the spaces. "

Century Baptist Church wrote on Sep 6, 2007 9:09 PM:

" Today, in the "Faith" section, or as one poster called it the "Superstition" section, is an article about the huge, ugly, and garish renovation of Century Baptist Church, which, its pastor, by the name of Stork, attributes to the work of god. Well, I am not sure which god he worships, but did not Jesus say, "Give unto Caesar the things that are Caesar and to god the things that are god"??? Well did he or didn't he? Then why is this ugly edifice exempt from taxation in a nation that is supposed to have separation of church and state? I own a building in Bismarck and pay $50,000/year in taxes. I assume this "religious entity" maintains a P&L and balance sheet. Why does it not have to pay taxes! And don't give me that "god" stuff. This is an abomination! All the churches generate revenues, and, in some cases, ENORMOUS revenues. They should be taxed like any other business! "

Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 6, 2007 8:57 PM:

" Ezra….. http://www.answers.com/topic/people-s-republic-of-china?cat=travel Oil fields discovered in the 1960s and after made China a net exporter, and by the early 1990s, China was the world's fifth-ranked oil producer. Growing domestic demand beginning in the mid-1990s, however, has forced the nation to import increasing quantities of petroleum. Offshore exploration has become important to meeting domestic needs; massive deposits off the coasts are believed to exceed all the world's known oil reserves. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 6, 2007 8:25 PM:

" Dear Grumper: I am pretty sure Satan is a Democrat, liberal, socialist, and a Muslim. Would you please confirm. Is disease caused by democrats? Is liberal thinking caused by education? There seems to be a strong connection between education and liberalism. The only reading that seems to be harmless is Bible reading. Everything else seems to lead to enlightenment, and the path to evil. Had Democrats, and liberals not existed would all wars have been avoided? Would it be right to kill someone just because they were a liberal, something like the Jehad idea the Muslims have? Will there be any Republicans in hell, or will it all be democrats? My goal is to be an apostle to the Grumper. I want to learn the tenants of the Grumper, who I am sure is a prophet from God, so I can become a Grumperite. Joseph Smith found his sacred tablets with his version of reality in the woods in New York. Where did you find yours Grumper? "

To Nickie wrote on Sep 6, 2007 8:13 PM:

" You are indeed right about the similarity between politics and religion. Bush courted the fundies, and got elected. They were an easy group to fool, and if anyone still supports Bush, it is the fundies. In the face of all evidence to the contrary the fundies will believe in Bush, just like they believe in religion. They are not phased by reality. As Grumper has demonstrated they will go to great lengths to invent a story that justifies their belief in an obvious lie. (Iraq attacked us on 911 and had weapons of mass destruction) . Once you accept the first error in a fundy equation ( there are 11 eggs in a dozen), then everything falls into place. Once you decide George Bush tells the truth, or the Bible is true, the rest is easy. Unfortunately both have been shown to be wrong by reality. To see how this all works, just wait for Grumper to explain it. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 6, 2007 8:12 PM:

" Ezra. The oil found in China during the Vietnam War years changed everything. No longer did China want to use its huge army to take over Indochina. With the discovery of oil many other countries were willing to build China's factories up to what they are now. Now the oil that they once exported is used in their own factories. You have been blaming the church and everyone else for your brother. Modern history is about oil. http://www.marxist.com/Asia/china_1976.htm After having a deficit in its foreign trade of about 1,000 million dollars in 1974 China had to reduce its orders abroad last year. There were a number of cancellations of orders for food and grain (including the whole of an order for wheat and maize, with a value of 150m dollars, from the USA), although imports of machinery continue to rise (up approx. 30%) and will continue to grow as a result of previous orders from the period 1972-74. Despite these difficulties it has been calculated that China’s foreign trade can grow at the rate of 10-15% annually until 1980 as a result of the rise in production and the oil exports. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 6, 2007 7:49 PM:

" Ezra, if this link does not work try searching under the title below. Nixon Negotiating For Oil (by Lindsey Williams) http://www.lindseywilliams.org/ index.htm?Editorial_Archives/ 1980_02-_Nixon_Negotiating_For_Oil.htm~mainFrame The Chinese appear to be sitting on an untouched ocean of oil. They are bringing up a surplus of "black gold" beyond their own needs and urgently need capital for their Four Modernizations program. Deng Xiaoping, senior vice premier of China and the real policy maker, has launched his country on an ambitious plan to achieve the western standard of living by the year 2000. He now has the money and manpower to do it. "

liberals wrote on Sep 6, 2007 7:47 PM:

" Anyone ever heard of Gregor Mendel. Yup, a monk and the father of modern genetics. Yup, quite a stipid moron there wasn't he? As for when has religion admitted mistakes. Well lets see, the Catholic Church admits it was wrong when it said the world was flat and the center of the universe. It admitted it was wrong to persecute the muslims and jews and has even appologized to those groups. It has admitted that some priests did wrong by sexually assalting boys and has even paid a pretty penny in recompese to those victims and then has been bashed by those of you who hate the church and religion so much. The church admitted that selling indulgences was wrong and in fact the position of the church was always that that particular practice was wrong, but it appologized and worked even more diligently to stop it. Christians are in fact constantly admitting they are wrong, which is the concept of sin. Liberals on the other hand seem to think they are never wrong and of course would never admit to such. Global warming, well wait it was global cooling in the 70's but no on has ever said oops we were wrong, that little theory just kind of was left to be forgotten about. Hmmm, must just be more money in making peope think it's getting hotter. Yes, the left antireligious seem to have managed to create a little religion of their own. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 6, 2007 7:36 PM:

" Ezra, I am shocked that you do not remember Dung (or Deng) arriving here at the same time as the boats full of oil. Here is one old article of the situation way back then. February 21, 1980 Stop the presses! The story that we reported exclusively in this space last October -- that Richard Nixon was secretly negotiating for oil with China -- has been confirmed. Readers may recall our dispatch from Beijing detailing a speech by Mr. Nixon who was touring a newly discovered oil field at Dagang. http://www.lindseywilliams.org/ index.htm?Editorial_Archives/ 1980_02-_Nixon_Negotiating_For_Oil.htm~mainFrame The president had gone to China in 1972 to reestablish a United States relationship between the world's most powerful nation and the most populous nation. He went back in 1976, after Watergate, "

To: Online Editor regarding Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 6, 2007 6:59 PM:

" This kook is like a moth on caffeine...all over the place. Cannot you do your "editor" thing and just block his postings? They, and the inevitable responses, have ruined what was once an interesting, give and take blog. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 6, 2007 6:48 PM:

" Grumper, let me get this straight. China offered to supply the United States with oil, according to Grumper HIstory. This sure seems strange, since today the United States is competing with China for the world oil supply. Where are the great oil reserves China has? Would any country with limited supply, that was growing at a rapid rate, and did not have a vast oil supply offer to sell it to the United States? Could anyone in the United States be so naive as to think China could be a reliable oil supply? Grumper History melts when put to the test of any form of logic or reason. However, one must keep in mind that Grumper believes in super natural beings, saints, divine revelation, ect "

Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 6, 2007 6:44 PM:

" To: Dear Grumper. You also ask who got us into Iraq? You might remember Saddam invaded Kuwait. After the UN action to kick him out he gassed Kurds, shot at our planes in the no fly zone, and lots of other negative stuff. Maybe you think we should have just let him keep Kuwait. What message would that send to our other friends in the area? That would be worse than the message Jimmy Carter send the Iranians. Worse than the message Clinton sent in Somalia. Right now the terrorists know we will wimp-out, it’s just a matter of time until the democrats are in again. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 6, 2007 6:30 PM:

" Dear Grumper: You might note science admits its mistakes and changes accordingly. Give me an example of when religion admitted a mistake and admitted it. "

Nickie wrote on Sep 6, 2007 6:22 PM:

" Interesting how similar in substance strong religious and political affiliations often are to each other. I wonder if that's why there always seems to be so much conflict involved with both? As in the commonly heard, 'never discuss religion or politics with ....'. No one ever says, 'never discuss religion or fast food with ....' or 'never discuss politics or bicycles with ....'. Both have 'the one true way' and the 'hierarchy'; the 'nonbelievers' (those with a different viewpoint) are 'unenlightened'' and 'extremists'. The words and the form might be different but the concept is the same. "

liberals wrote on Sep 6, 2007 6:20 PM:

" Grumpy, I am starting to think when liberals talk about fundies, they really are looking in the mirror and talking about themselves. "

liberals wrote on Sep 6, 2007 6:19 PM:

" John F. Kennedy a renown liberal actually put us in Vietnam. FDR put us in WWII. Bill Clintons innaction helped cause Sept 11 and he also put us in the middle of not 1 but two civil wars in other countries. If not for the liberals in Vietnam, we wouldn't still be there, we would have won the war. If not for the liberal critisizm in Iraq, the troops could get their job done and come home. Ok, so maybe Lincoln didn't join an organized church, he still believed in God, he still believed in the bible. According to your little definition that makes him a fundy. The liberals of Lincoln's day, by the way, thought he was a war monger and wanted the civil war to end. They said just let the south go and be their own country and carry on with their slave trade. Since you all can generalize people who believe in religion as fundies, here are some about liberals. Liberals overall act more on emotion, not much on thought out plans. They throw money at a problem rather than try to fix the problem. They aren't really the most intelligent people as they tend to live in the past and think their ideas are new and cool. They believe everyone in the world loves them and they are everyone's friend and if someone does hate them, well they just need to change their approach. That leads to the final stamp of a liberal, they have no conviction in anything. Their morals and beliefs wander like the wind to whatever feels right. In fact, I say it isn't the religious that have caused all problems in the world, I say it is liberals and their total lack of conviction and self discipline. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 6, 2007 6:14 PM:

" To: Dear Grumper. Ah yes the Vietnam War that was prolonged by the liberals giving comfort to the enemy. The war lasted so long the war became unimportant. Russia changed, China was also supplying North Vietnam but suddenly had oil to sell. You remember Nixon getting credit for making friends with China and the boats full of Chinese oil arriving at exactly the same time as that Chinese leader arrived. Funny how that happens, China had oil to sell and Nixon got the credit for normalizing relations with China. I am surprised that you missed that. I guess that when WWII ended you would have let Russia and China divide up the world. Then we would have had bigger wars because they would have used the extra people in their much larger armies. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 6, 2007 5:55 PM:

" TO: Ezra (who) wrote on Sep 6, 2007 3:45 PM: “what constitutes hate?” I think I can answer your question. It is when a person dislikes a building or group and harasses them with frivolous accusations. It is when someone uses a discussion about something like Latin Mass to attack the church and it’s leadership. It is really about Bush is it not? You heard some radio commentator or maybe CNN say that the religious people elected Bush. You heard the left wing democrats and Hollywood types talk about how much they hate Bush. It made you want to burn your draft card all over again didn’t it? You claim to hide behind science. Present science claims Black Holes are so massive that not even light can escape. Then they needed another theory because all the suspected Black Holes glow brightly. Science claims all life evolved in the ocean. The ancestor of all animals crawled out of the ocean as an amphibian. Your salamander ancestors climbed a tree, became rats, then lemurs, then monkeys, then liberals. Remember when scientists were claiming to make “life” in a sealed bottle of water, basic chemicals and electricity. Later they discovered that life can live in very high temperatures (the bottle they used was not sterile). No scientist ever apologized; they just go on to the next big “discovery”. What about the astronomer that saw the canals on Mars years ago? That was fun. We could go on-and-on about how much of yesterday’s science is now not science. "

Dear Grumper wrote on Sep 6, 2007 5:34 PM:

" Was it liberals that ended the war in Vietnam? If it were up to you we would still be there. Who got us into Iraq? Liberals I suppose. Have a good day Grumper and let me know when Grumpers History of Man is going to be published. I would like to get the braille version for the bats in my belfry. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 6, 2007 5:20 PM:

" Anyone who studies the lives of great thinkers that actually contributed to the advancement of the human race would find that none of them were caught up in fundy silliness. Read about Lincoln, Einstein, Franklin, Jefferson, and on and on. Many of these people were polite enough to disguise the fact that they had no use for fundies, but none of them went to any length to endorse fundy ideas. I would like someone to show me a great thinker that was caught up in the silliness of Latin Mass, exorcisms, saints, virgin birth, and all the other superstition. Please provide a reputable reference. "

Lincoln and Religion the truth wrote on Sep 6, 2007 4:16 PM:

" Excerpt from: Mark A Noll, "The Ambiguous Religion of President Abraham Lincoln" (see full text of article below): Considerable uncertainty arises... when Lincoln's own religion is examined... it is obvious that Christianity exerted a profound influence on his life. His father was a member of Regular Baptist churches in Kentucky and Indiana. Lincoln himself read the Bible throughout his life, quoted from it extensively... during his years as president he did regularly attend the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church in Washington. On the other hand, Lincoln never joined a church nor ever made a clear profession of standard Christian beliefs... Lincoln's friend Jesse Fell [suggested that Lincoln's views on Christian theology] were not orthodox... It is probable that Lincoln was turned against organized Christianity by his experiences as a young man in New Salem, Illinois, where excessive emotion and bitter sectarian quarrels marked yearly camp meetings and the ministry of traveling preachers. Yet although Lincoln was not a church member, he did ponder the eternal significance of his own circumstances. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 6, 2007 4:09 PM:

" To: Fundy VS Liberal. Wrong again on all points. Good people gravitate to religious groups because it is correct, and you can do more good as a group. Left wing socialist liberals gravitate toward the Hollywood and Vegas “if it feels good do-it”. You would try to convince us that the Revolutionary War, to free us from the English King, was fought by Liberals. You would want us to believe that “liberals” won the Civil War. Perhaps you want us to believe the first coast to coast railroad was built by liberals. Our great shipping ports according to you must have been built by liberals. Our great machinery for farm and factories must have been built by liberals. Dig in the dirt of any continent and you find flint spear points. Maybe they were made by liberals. Perhaps your mother was in Jimmy Carters Peace Corp? According to you our religion is inferior to Voo-Doo of Africa or any other religion where missionaries went. The Industrial Revolution here and in Europe had giant factories that were not built by “Liberals”. If you wish, you could call The Renaissance a bunch of liberals. You could say that they were what caused the French Revolution, not the overworked Serfs in the age of feudalism. Listening to you would convince me that dope smoking hippies were responsible for all the advances in society. Perhaps a case could be made that conservatives invented Television and Liberals took over programming. Every liberal in Hollywood’s movie studios knows five people dying of AIDS and one who died in the last month. Or are you going to claim that drugs and promiscuous sex are not liberal issues. Incidentally it was many years ago that England decided on a tax policy that “soaked the rich”. Most of the rich then moved out of England and they have been in a recession for many many years. It is not good to let socialists have control of the government. "

A Little Research wrote on Sep 6, 2007 3:49 PM:

" The Influence of Rising Educational Levels John H. Redekop The influence of higher education on conservative evangelical or Anabaptist groups has been a controversial topic for generations if not centuries. More specifically, the view that postsecondary schooling, on balance, undermines orthodoxy and conformity enjoys widespread acceptance, and for good cause. Even a cursory study of long-standing theological schools in Europe and North America, including Anabaptist developments in the Netherlands, indicates a broad rejection of the largely evangelical and conservative views which these schools espoused during their early years. Time and again higher education has destroyed evangelical zeal and faith-based ethics. Rigorous intellectual development at advanced levels has often produced people who view and explain God’s Word through an intellectual grid. Even in theological graduate pursuits the temptation to focus on the academic rather than on the experiential is strong. Such a focus tends to nurture a hermeneutic of suspicion which contributes some healthy questioning but which minimizes the centrality of the inner life. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 6, 2007 3:45 PM:

" My, my, what happened to the civility, calling people idiots and such? I have asked many times, and never received an answer, what constitutes hate? Apparently if you do not believe exactly what someone else believes that is hate? Please explain, which no one has so far, the definition of hate used here. "

to fundy vs liberal wrote on Sep 6, 2007 2:41 PM:

" Liberals did better in school? How is that possible when they were smoking pot and going to sit ins while your so called fundies were living clean lives and studying? You are so warped and full of hate that you actually believe the bs coming out of your head and making it's way to the keyboard? Tell you what, you go have a conversation with the pope and then come back and tell me how uneducated the man is. Better yet read some of his writings. it doesn't even have to be his religious writings, he has had published many others. Then you can tell me how much smarter you are than he is and I wil again call you an idiot. Maybe even a prejudice idiot. "

to fundy vs. liberal wrote on Sep 6, 2007 2:38 PM:

" Yes Abraham lincoln certainly was a liberal wasn't he? Such a liberal that he was religious. Hmmm. Liberals also like to spend more money than they take in, tax not only the rich but the poor with the promise of giving them more in government services than they pay in. They like to take away private lands and posessions and redistribute them to everyone else, dictate how others should live. Wait the dictate how other should live sounds just like a fundy doesn't it? Liberals need to be promised everything and are easily manipulated by their liberal leaders in to believing their suffering is ok because it helps all others. They are duped by scientists in to beleiving that all scientific theory is fact and when that theory changes, thats ok, it's just a better understanding of how things work. Liberals don't dupe the gullible? How do you account for raising the taxes of the middle class and calling it a tax on the rich? Jimmy Carter is a very religious man, almost a fundamentalist, yet he builds houses for habitat for humanity as do many religious fundamentalists. Liberals dont build big buildings? What do you call the UN building? Oh and how about social security, nice liberal program. Guess what it is going bankrupt and I have yet to hear a liberal tell me how it will be fixed. Yup, liberals sure are better than fundies. Idiot. "

Fundy VS Liberal wrote on Sep 6, 2007 12:38 PM:

" I hope I can clear this up for you. Fundies have to be promised heaven, or threatened with hell to do what they think is the right thing. On the other hand liberals know what is right and just do it. Fundies go around the world and ruin other cultures with missionaries, liberals don't. Liberals do not give tax breaks to the rich, Fundies think it is just fine. Fundies believe in supernatural beings, liberals don't. The people who gave women the vote, slaves freedom, and old people social security were liberals. Fundies don't like to share. Fundies build big builings with their money. liberals build houses for Habitat for humanity. Fundies use religion to bilk the guilibale, liberals don't believe in bilking the gullible. Fundies don't believe in science unless absolutely necessary. Liberals believe in the scientific method. Fundies have a much lower median level of education, most liberals did better in school, and went on to college. I hope I have cleared this up for you. "

Honest Omar wrote on Sep 6, 2007 10:14 AM:

" When I was young and eagerly did frequent Doctor and Saint, and heard great argument, But at the end found often I went out the same door as which in I went. Omar Khayam "

to definition of fundy wrote on Sep 6, 2007 7:41 AM:

" If that is the definition, wouldn't it be applied to far left libs as well? They to are very rigid in their beliefs and will not accept any other opinion on anything. Some would call it a religion apart from secularism and in my opinion those people are just as dangerous as the far right. "

Online Editor wrote on Sep 5, 2007 9:55 PM:

" To To: Online Editor: I haven't forgotten the request to add Gannon to our online columnists. Our Webmaster is on vacation this week, so the request has to be held until next week. "

To: Ezra and, in particular, Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 5, 2007 9:24 PM:

" Enough already! First, get a life. Then give others a chance. "

Definition of fundy wrote on Sep 5, 2007 9:22 PM:

" A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism. ........please notice the words rigid, intolerance, and opposition to secularism. Perhaps you will agree the Catholic Church fits the description very well. "

to just for the record wrote on Sep 5, 2007 9:20 PM:

" I think that point was made a long time ago on this board but Ezra and others continue to attempt to lump the catholics in with the so called fundies. It just demonstrates their ignorance and hate toward all things they dont understand but think they do. "

As to Christopher Hitchens... wrote on Sep 5, 2007 8:35 PM:

" I subscribe to "Newsweek," and read his incredibly well written and, for him, balanced article. When I write, "for him," it is evident that he seeths over the catholic church that first brainwashed this poor woman, then used her to promote its own agenda...even after the church new about her lost faith! And now they are trying to make her into a saint! The incredible cynicism of this horrible institution is beyond belief. "

To My Most Dear Grumpy wrote on Sep 5, 2007 8:25 PM:

" For your edification please look up both the word atheist, and agnostic. You will find separate definitions for both. I like the concept of admitting what I know, and what I do not. I also like the concept of a theory. A theory is based on a plausible explanation that is supported by science and physics, but it is not a certainty. Adults who believe something strongly but are willing to admit they cannot scientifically prove it, call such a belief a theory. When someone believes something that seems illogical, or based on something other than science, we usually call it a religion, myth, or superstition. Calling things what they are is a good practice. I think it is important we be honest, and especially important that we be honest with children. Grumpy, do you think we should tell children that religion may not be true? Don't answer if you cannot do it in a kind way. Remember civility, and please no cannibal stories, they scare me an I have a hard time sleeping. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 5, 2007 8:16 PM:

" Civility is what makes civilization. Contrary to my dear friend Grumpy I do not hate anyone or anything. My wonderful Catholic neighbor just came and brought us some nice desert. My wonderful Lutheran neighbor brought us the main meal. I am thankful for these good people, and they represent the best of Christianity. We sat, talked, had a beer, and a very nice time. My wife has been ill, and the neighbors have done exactly what I think Christ would have wanted. If we could keep the good part of religion, and throw out the bad it would be great. However, I doubt this is possible. Today I took the Catholic Neighbor to the doctor, and I would do anything I could for all my neighbors. I manage to do this just fine being an agnostic. As I have stated before my goal is to rid the world of the superstitions that have led us to war and hate. I fail to see why one needs religion to do what is right. I fail to see any need to make up something when you don't have an answer. Today my daughter and I had a good discussion about the Big Bang theory. She pointed out to me that it was a Catholic Priest that first proposed the idea. If only all of us could be that open minded to the possibilities and quit trying to stifle the quest for knowledge by claiming we know what we do not. "

Just for the record... wrote on Sep 5, 2007 7:27 PM:

" I was under the impression that Catholics were not fundamentalists (or "fundies" as some of you have so nicely and condescendingly put it). In fact, I thought that fundamentalists opposed the Catholic Church and much of its theology, and the only reason many people equate them as one and the same is the fact that they have similar positions on many social issues we are facing today. So before you continue on calling Catholics "fundamentalists," you may want to get your facts straight. "

Online Editor wrote on Sep 5, 2007 6:46 PM:

" To Grumpy Art: I think the two of you are the last people posting to this story. Please try to keep it somewhat civil. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 5, 2007 5:37 PM:

" To online editor. Latin Mass is a very ho-hum subject. Anyone who has a particular bias will not likely change. But Ezra claims it is normal for him to be an atheist and hate a Church building. Every lost tribe found in any jungle or Ocean Island has a religion. Ezra claims he is “normal” by being an atheist, but 99 percent of the world has a religion. Normal would mean he would need to be in the 50 percent group. How about if we keep the name calling down to every 4th or 5th line? Pretty please, pretty please. At present science claims our ancestors evolved in the ocean and climbed out as amphibians. I have not yet said one word about his ancestor the salamander. I think I could get him to join the nearest church if you give me some slack. "

Online Editor wrote on Sep 5, 2007 4:42 PM:

" To Ezra and Grumpy Art: Please stick to the topic and not name calling and / or charges of mental illness. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 5, 2007 3:22 PM:

" Lets have a mental shoot out Grumper. Lets let an unbiased psychologist look at these post. The psychologist can decide which of us is most nearly ready to be treated for mental illness. I would be willing to bet you win the contest. Remember, I don't believe in devils, angels, and other supernatural beings. This should give me a head start. I may be under need of treatment, but I do not support nor have I ever supported an organization that has robbed old ladies, supported torture, hidden sexual abuse by priest, and wasted millions on useless buildings. I hope this also goes in my favor in the evaluation. If I am nuts, at least I am harmless. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 5, 2007 2:25 PM:

" To: Dear Grumper. Again you tried for an advantage by claiming I said something that I in fact did not say. I did not say anyone sinned. I ask you how you felt about casino buildings. First you answered that they are more honest. Then you claimed to be quoting me claiming I said "So what, Casino's do it all the time". Not only are you paranoid about a building, you think people say things they did not say. That is called schizophrenia. You can function at some level in society and these posts. That makes you a functional paranoid schizophrenic. Your favorite author claims to have knowledge about Mother Teresa that no one else has. Obviously he is delusional also. "

Dear Grumper wrote on Sep 5, 2007 12:49 PM:

" I am always perplexed that when it is pointed out to you about some particular sin of the Church, you always site examples of other organizations that are also sinful. For example: The Church steals and waste money, you justify this by saying, " So what, Casino's do it all the time". When I was a kid my parents would not accept that as an excuse. No matter how many times I told them the neighbor kid got bad grades, they still insisted I do my homework and study. Did your mom and dad let you get away with that excuse Grumper? "

Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 5, 2007 12:16 PM:

" To: Dear Grumper. Where did you say that sex scandal was? Was it in this state or a neighboring state? Do you know how many crimes are committed each day in Los Angeles and New York. If the newspaper printed all the news one paper would need one pick up truck to carry it. No one could possibly read it in one day. So the media’s focus on unusual stories. Do you know how many thousands and thousands of Catholic Priests are in this country. Have you compared the crime rate comparison of Priests compared to Firemen or Hollywood actors, or even birdwatchers. Why would anyone focus on a small town church and begin ranting about something that happened in a big city church thousands of miles away. You say “My God has blessed me very well” then you rant like a paranoid in a mental hospital. I thought you were agnostic? or was that last week? "

Ezra wrote on Sep 5, 2007 11:39 AM:

" Fundy Alert: Christopher Hitchens has a wonderful article in Newsweek "The Dogmatic Doubter". Hitchens is pretty charitable with Mother Teresa's work, but does go into the fact that she certainly had some strong doubts about the nonsense, and may not even have believed it herself. Today's assignment for brave fundies is to read and report. Exactly what is untrue in the article. Be careful your mind may open, and new thoughts may enter. The story doesn't blame anything on cannibals Grumper. "

MamaMia wrote on Sep 5, 2007 11:25 AM:

" Yawn. . . "

Dear Grumper wrote on Sep 5, 2007 11:25 AM:

" Today's word is hypocrite. Casinos, and many other organizations do what they say they are going to do. On the other hand the Catholic Church professes to care about the well being of people and doing the work of God. The Catholic Church ends up spending billions on sex scandels, and Cathedrals. I don't think this is what God wants them to do. I have never given a cent to churches and never will. So far this year I have given directly to people in need over three thousand dollars. Every cent went to help people, none went to sex scandals or Cathedrals. My God has blessed me very well, and I like to think it is because I have done the right thing. You loving Apostle Ezra "

Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 5, 2007 10:09 AM:

" To: To Grumpy and To To Grumper, and or Ezra or whoever. You still seem to be focusing on a Church that you have fixated on as a waste of money. You did not say if you think any Las Vegas Casinos are a waste of money. Did you know that those slot machines are programmed to take in more money than they give out. What about the Mustang Ranch (brothel), was it a waste of money. How do you feel about golf courses and all that money spent maintaining them, watering them, cutting the grass. How do you feel about all that money spent on your buddy Hitchen’s book. Obviously he is just another capitalist out making a buck. Instead of buying his book people could send money to Africa. When someone focuses on a Church as a waste of money, and cannot comprehend that people earned wages building that church, you obviously need to get professional help. Obviously you like a roof over your head but think religious folks should meet in a field somewhere. What about your little weekend trip, you could have stayed home and bought a few sandwiches for some hungry lazy drug addicts wife or kids. Practice what you preach. If you think other people are confused about whether or not the sun is up or down you must be smoking some heavy stuff. "

nhaug wrote on Sep 5, 2007 8:52 AM:

" How cares about this crap. Untill the catholic church stops protecting level 3 sex offenders who cares. As far as I am concearned the whole catholic faith is a fraud. They also have a Nazi for a Pope, that is telling. I say do away with the pope figure head and start making real changes and then maybe there should be some respect given to this fraud thing called catholic! "

To Grumper wrote on Sep 5, 2007 8:32 AM:

" According to you throwing money at a problem often results in waste. What is the problem a Cathedral attempts to solve? Is it possible that throwing money at the problem a Cathedral attempts to solve could result in waste. More simply put, is it possible to waste money on a Cathedral? "

To Grumpy wrote on Sep 5, 2007 8:07 AM:

" You are truely incapable of answering a simple question. Try this one. Is the sun up or down? I suppose your answer will be that historically the sun is up at this time of day, but in some countries it has been historically down, and of course it is not the Catholic Churchs fault if it is up or down it is do to the Muslims. "

To JC wrote on Sep 5, 2007 8:04 AM:

" Although Grumpy Art does not seem to believe we should attempt to save lives, because it just encourages people to misbehave, the cost of saving a life can be very low. Sometimes all it takes to save multiple lives is a clean water supply. If you do the research, and the math you will find that the cost of providing people with clean water is very little. It can be done with inexpensive filters, or sometimes simply a well. One well can serve very many people. Secondly, many young children die from lake of the proper vitamins. Vitamins can be provided for very little money. There are so many ways to save people for so very little, I cannot go into them all. The real miracle you should investigate is the one where people claim they follow God than build a $191 million dollar Cathedral while people starve. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 4, 2007 10:32 PM:

" To "Dear Grumpy", obviously God would want us to teach them how to improve their lives. Throwing money at a problem often results in the money being wasted. There is “no country in this world” that we could not go to and feed some starving person. Go to Los Angeles or New York and feed lots of schizophrenic alcoholic street people if you want. They would rather you give them money so they could go buy whiskey. Almost all street people are on some kind of social program or has some other income that they waste on booze. Most of Europe is Catholic and their population is not increasing much. Obviously your argument that the Catholic Church is responsible for the population problems of Central America are not correct. Dictators who would rather smuggle drugs than do anything positive are more deserving of you attention. Obviously the oil well monies are not reaching the common person. If you think God is not in favor of population control then you should look outside. Study any bird or bug or animal species and you will find another that eats it. Study the Lions of Africa and you will see what happens when you are at the top of the food chain. There is no animal or insect that could not overpopulate the entire world if nothing else was keeping it under control. There are no doubt still people in Africa who believe AIDS is not a virus. People who believe stories like sex with a virgin will cure AIDS. Are they going to believe someone from across the ocean or the local witch doctor. Sometimes it takes the status of a large impressive church to get credibility. Obviously people who practice celibacy until marriage and stay faithful to each other are not dying of AIDS. "

To: Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 4, 2007 10:04 PM:

" From your latest response I can only conclude that your are in desperate need of psychological help. Buddy...you are all over the map and way too bitter! Good luck to you. "

JC wrote on Sep 4, 2007 9:52 PM:

" Congratulations EZRA: I believe you have uncovered a MIRACLE. Salvation at a cost of only $54.57 per person. Alleluia! Using the numbers you quoted, this truly must be a miracle. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 4, 2007 9:41 PM:

" To: To: Grumpy Art. Read again what I said. When a construction worker gets paid a lot of taxes are taken out of his check. Then when that construction worker spends his money sales taxes are paid. When he spends it at the butcher shop the butcher then goes to buy food or a car and more sales taxes are paid. Every time money changes hands taxes are paid. This is basic to how F. D. Roosevelt got us out of the Depression by putting men to work building roads, parks, and planting trees. As to Christopher Hitchins my opinion is that he is a negative socialist left winger that should go back to England. Why would a socialist want to come here and write a book. The obvious answer is that he is a capitalist out to make some money. So you think prayer does not increase the bodies immune response. I have read studies that show that the “praying immune response” is much better than the average placebo effect or confident attitude. Especially group prayer. The opposite immune response was once stated by a young doctor back when T.B. was a big problem. He was watching a young lady die of Tuberculosis and she should have been fighting it off. Never once did she mention her disease but constantly talked about the man who had left her, as she died. If you are talking about the phony instant cures from major diseases only a few are for real. However some are not. Similar to how a chiropractor can relieve a pinched nerve or a sudden shock can wake up part of the brain. Someone who was once a swimmer, but who has been away from the water for 50 years can still swim if accidentally pushed in a pool. The fact that he has not been swimming for years does not mean brain circuits can no longer be stimulated. "

Dear Grumpy wrote on Sep 4, 2007 9:12 PM:

" You seem to believe there is a need to control population. No realistic person could really believe the Catholic system could control population. The reality is that the worst population problems are where the Catholics have allowed to run wild. South America is a classic mess created by the Catholic Church. Perhaps you do not remember when they were pouring gasoline down sewers to burn out the orphan children in Rio De Janeiro. They were allowing people to shoot children like rats. It all stemmed from the wonderful policies of overpopulation brought to us by the Catholic Church. As usual you are totally incapable of answering a direct question. Try this one: Given the choice between building a Cathedral for $191 million dollars, or building homes, and providing clean water in under developed countries, what would God want a good Catholic to do? I suppose this will result in an answer about how someone got eaten by a cannibal. "

To: Regarding Grael Gannon wrote on Sep 4, 2007 7:56 PM:

" I can't believe some of the regular posters on this blog haven't picked up on the comments regarding this so-called, every-other-Friday editorialist. The Tribune is oversaturated with pro-religious articles, and not only on Thursday. Not to mention the full page advertisements from the likes of Scheels and the former Econofoods trying to cram the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem, which has not one shred of historical truth, or the resurrection on "Easter Sunday." When was the last time you saw somebody raised from the dead. And Jesus, an apocolyptocist, claimed that the coming kingdom of god would occur in his lifetime (so did Paul). Still waiting, boys! "

To: Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 4, 2007 7:50 PM:

" Never have responded to you before. You say that during the construction of a church tax monies are generated? But churches are tax-exempt! Didn't know before you wrote that the construction of another useless edifice generates taxes. As to Christopher Hitchins' 3 hour interview this past Sunday, I watched all of it. And he never hesitated about anything. When confronted via telephone by an obvious bible thumper woman from the South, who claimed she was instantly healed by prayer, he offered nothing, because he considered, as he should have, her entire tirade to be stupid...all based on Solipsism...that she considers herself to be so important as to be the direct beneficiary of divine intervention by some supreme being she has concocted in her head. It is all BS! But, pray on! "

Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 4, 2007 7:27 PM:

" Ezra, it has very little to do with compassion. Again some history you missed. It took until 1830 to get the first 1 billion people on this earth. It took 100 years (1930) for the 2nd Billion people on this earth. It took 30 years for the third Billion people (1960). It took about 15 years for the fourth Billion people on this earth (1975). That would indicate another billion in 7.5 years, then another billion in about 3.75 years. Then it really gets better with another billion in about 1.8 years and another billion in .9 years and so on. Being at the top of the food chain has consequences. Starvation and disease awaits those who overpopulate. People are flooding into this country from Asia, India, and Mexico and you haven’t seen anything slowing it down yet. With enough food and transport ships using nuclear reactors we could feed some but as you can see we would have about 50 billion people on earth right now if we could feed them all. We are under 7 billion. At some point populations must be controlled and Diseases like AIDS eliminated. Celibacy prevents AIDS. Being true to ones partner prevents AIDS. The values taught by the churches are the best values. You cannot force those values on third world countries so they must learn the old fashioned way. You do not see a large number of AIDS deaths in Islamic countries because they like to kill prostitutes and the men caught going to them. By attrition in 100 years all that will be left will be Catholics and Muslims. More likely we will have a nuclear war before then. Just trying to cheer you up. "

To Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 4, 2007 6:44 PM:

" Unlike your typical fundy, I went to the web site and read what you suggested. Unlike a fundy, I don't deny a bit of it is true. It seems accurate. However, I fail to see the point. Nothing on the site mentions the Catholic Church. The only point you perpetually seem to make is that the Catholic Church was just like everyone else when it came to slavery. I thought they were supposed to be leading the way to morality, not endorsing slavery. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 4, 2007 6:16 PM:

" Ezra, here is some of that history you claimed was not taught you in college. http://www.ralphmag.org/BU/slavery.html It requires organizations like the large churches to resist other organized practices that are deplorable. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 4, 2007 6:03 PM:

" Love your compassion Grumpy. Let them die, they will just reproduce like rats if they live. You of course leave out the fact that it is the same Cahtolic Church that is building the $191 million dollar Cathedral that is also making sure they have no effective birth control. It is imperative they control their population. Most Catholics in our country ignore the Pope and use birth control that works, Instead of teaching them how to control reproduction with birth control pills the Catholic Church pushes the abstention routine. It is not followed, nor does it work in our country, but these people have the gall to push it on poor people all over the world. How simple minded to say any building project is good and provides jobs. If that were the case why not just build pyramids? Grumpy, you logic is like Swiss Cheese, but it is nice to see some one who will defend this ridiculous waste of money. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 4, 2007 4:02 PM:

" Hello again Ezra. You claim that “for $191 million dollars the Catholic Church could save the lives of 3.5 million people”. So I must ask how long that will keep them alive and how many children will they have? So when 3.5 million starving people temporarily become 7 or 10 million starving people, where do you get the money to save the additional people. Surely you have a plan for clean water or improved agriculture that will permit them to sustain themselves. But then they will continue to breed until they again cannot sustain themselves. The most fertile areas are in the Niger River area, and sleeping sickness carried by the Tsetse fly, and Malaria carried by mosquitoes are issues. Are you going to go spray harmful insecticides or what? How can I comment unless you tell me your wonderful plan that no one has thought of yet? Be sure to also tell me your objection to construction people putting food on their tables building a church. That money is not “wasted” as you imply it goes to the builders who spend it at the butcher, baker, and automobile maker. Each time the money changes hands taxes are paid. How can you look at any construction project and call it a waste of money. Perhaps they should practice celibacy until marriage and family planning afterward. The liberals told us that all these problems would be solved when all the white people were out of government and Black people were in charge. Please explain what you have been reading. I watched Hitchens for awhile Sunday and he was a bit sweaty and seemed unsure of himself. Wikipedia says the liberals disowned him and the socialist party does not even like him anymore. Hope you have a better source. He flip-flops way to much. "

To Grumpy Art wrote on Sep 4, 2007 9:09 AM:

" Dear Grumper, I just read with great dismay that a Cathedral is being built in California to the tune of $191million dollars. I did some math using information from the World Health Organization. It turns out for $191 million dollars the Catholic Church could save the lives of 3.5 million people. Please explain to me how God would rather 3.5 million people die from disease, and starvation, so he can have a nice Cathedral? You got to be kidding if you can rationalize this one. It will probably be a spin on your free choice argument. Those people rejected Christ, and deserve to die. It makes the Richarton experiment in mis-spent money look like small change. I am glad I don't believe in the God that loves Cathedrals. "

Ezra wrote on Sep 3, 2007 9:38 PM:

" I had a long nice weekend. Thanks to Honest Omar and the others that helped keep the fundies in line. Over and over I have seen people say that I have been negative, evil, or some other bad additive because I do not believe in the religious nonsense. Over and over I have asked someone to explain to me why is it evil, negative, or bad to state what is real and true? No one has yet explained to me how believing in nonsense is positive and good, and not believing in nonsense is evil and bad. "

Regarding Grael Gannon wrote on Sep 2, 2007 10:50 PM:

" To the Editor/Publisher of the Bismarck Tribune. If memory serves did not Mr. Gannon inherit the job of conservative editorialist after you fired the Shiloh English teacher, Margaret Sitte, for plagiarism (yes, plagiarism!) and then fired her successor, Steve Cates, for being, well...a kook! So, Gannon teaches at Shiloh. Is he Sitte redux? "

To: What about Grael Gannon wrote on Sep 2, 2007 10:18 PM:

" I agree with you about this writer. He started out as the conservative editorialist but for the last months has only written about religion and the bible. And you are also correct that he claims to offer up history when, in fact, he has a religious agenda. A while back he did defend evolution, but now he is trying to demonstrate the truth of the old and new testaments. Question for Mr. Gannon: if you believe in evolution, how do you explain "original sin?" At what point in the history of human evolution did one anthropoid commit this so-called "original sin?" An "original sin," which was then passed down through countless generations of innocent people, thereby requiring a redeemer to die on a cross in order to set everything right? Sounds rather anti-evolution to me. And totally nonsensical. To the publisher of the Bismarck Tribune: what is this guy's job description, anyway? Conservative writer or biblical interpreter? If it is the latter his articles should be in the Thursday "Faith" section...or, as one previous poster called it, the "Superstition" section... not on Fridays as an editorial. "

Total Approbation wrote on Sep 2, 2007 10:01 PM:

" I applaud the two young missionaries who listened to the call of god and are going to Japan to change the evil ways of the Japanese! Shintoism and Taoism? Completely out-of-date beliefs that pale in the light of truth, justice, and the American Way! Give 'em a good dose of that ol' time religion! Convert the lot of 'em to tithing snake handlers and speakers of tongues! Give 'em the whole nine yards because of Pearl Harbor! They deserve it! And they should have listened to the first Christian missionaries, the Jesuits -- who failed so miserably there. What was the reason? Oh, yeah! The Japanese have their OWN beliefs they have held for thousands of years! Imagine that! Imagine their ignorance and stupidity! But you two kids are going to change all that...right? And don't forget to write! We want to be enlightened by word of your progress. "

To: Honest Omar wrote on Sep 2, 2007 4:01 PM:

" I had exactly the same revulsion regarding the story about these two naive and brainwashed kids. When was the last time a Japanese tried to convince them about the truth of Shintoism? I hope they get run out of Japan. What is really cynical is their cat named Fermi, as in Enrico Fermi, who was one of the key scientists who worked on the Manhattan Project that produced the bombs that wiped out Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Bet the Japanese will really see the humor in that! "

Honest Omar wrote on Sep 2, 2007 1:42 PM:

" Re: Thur Aug 30 Trib - Superstition Section. Features a story about a young couple going to Japan as missionaries. It is almost impossible to imagine the audacity and arrogance it must take to go to a foreign country with the express purpose of spreading your own version of insanity. And to do so because god wants them to illustrates perfectly the kind of delusional thinking that many of us worry about in these posts. We should all be worried. Ezra, thank you for your efforts - most of the time I simply let you speak for me because you say it better. "

Online Editor wrote on Sep 1, 2007 10:29 PM:

" To What about Grael Gannon: Tuesday (hopefully I remember) I will try to add Gannon to the online columnist list. Thanks for pointing out that we are missing a few of the local columniests. "

To: Honest Omar wrote on Sep 1, 2007 9:12 PM:

" I will be watching Chrisopher Hitchens tomorrow morning! What I really like about him is his bulldog attitude. "Somewhat" calmer condemnations of religion, way overdue in this age of scientific discovery, are Samuel Harris, Daniel Dennet, and Richard Dawkins. If you want the historical truth about the new testament: Bart Ehrman's books and his lecture series, available for purchase through the Teaching Company: www,teach12.com "

What about Grael Gannon? wrote on Sep 1, 2007 7:53 PM:

" Has anyone ever wondered why his articles, which appear every other Friday, are not subject to a blog response? This man teaches history at Shiloh, and he writes that he wants to show the historical truth about the bible, but, in fact, nothing he writes is historically truthful. This past Friday he made the claim that the gospel writers were honest and that they are to be trusted. They are??? The gospels were, in fact, written by anonymous authors -- much later the names of Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John were ascribed to them. Mark is the first, written about 25 years after the death of Jesus. What that means is that 25 years of oral history passed, and oral history is subject to the most extreme changes and embellishments (ever play that classroom game of whispering?). And the ending of Mark was changed much later to include the so-called resurrection, which the author did not record in the original. Mathew and Luke contradict one another on the nativity story among other differences. And John is totally unrelated to the first three "Synoptic Gospels," as it is simply a religious tract that post-dates the death of Jesus by at least 75 years. Trust these texts as actual history? One would have to be a naive student at Shiloh to swallow this! I certainly do not! And, to "On-line Editor," why are we not allowed to respond to Gannon's nonsense? "

Honest Omar wrote on Sep 1, 2007 3:24 PM:

" OK, it's almost time - set those VCRs or, better yet, skip mass (fiction) tomorrow and watch NON-Fiction C-Span Book TV (Ch 73). Christopher Hitchens "God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything" from 11:00AM til 2PM. Should be very informative and enlightening, although if you are one of those that prefers wishful thinking, superstition and myth to rational thought, you won't be thrilled. "

To: Ezra wrote on Aug 31, 2007 10:35 PM:

" After reading your many posts here, you repeated yourself over and over again, even though you tried to hide behind different screen names. At first, I thought that perhaps you had a spiritual problem. On second thought, your problem isn't spiritual but psychological. You seem incapable of hearing, listening to, or become understanding of, any thought or idea that differs from yours. Any constructive or intelligent thoughts that you might have become overshadowed by your lack of effective communication skills. Other posters on this blog, who have a personality similar to yours, offer you encouragement and support, which is nothing more than reenforcing your negative behaviors. You isolate yourself by your negative behaviors, then you accuse others of being closed minded, brain-washed, and in denial. "

JC wrote on Aug 31, 2007 7:09 PM:

" Get real; I wouldn't go to a car dealer to discuss history, religion, politics or any other irrelivant subject. You've made my point concisely; if you don't like the original topic, then move on to something else, go to another site. If there are people that want to discuss the topic at hand, let them discuss it and you stay out of it. Slaves were never a hot topic in ND. If no one wants to discuss it , let this topic wither away and something else can take it's place. Maybe it will even be something you and Art agree on! "

Ezra wrote on Aug 31, 2007 1:26 PM:

" Grumper, is there a place where you can get your whole version of world history? The cause and effect part would be most interesting. Islam apparently caused slavery, and the Catholic Church ended it. I was a History Major in College, and your version was something unavailable in the classes I took. Tell me now that the Pope did not go along with Natzis during World War II, or were the Islamist Moors also responsible for that war. I suppose the Catholic Church was instrumental in saving the Jews from Hitler. As someone else noted, I never realized such a high percentage of facts were just made up. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 31, 2007 11:50 AM:

" To: Dear Grumper. So you did not go to the Scourge of Slavery article you fished elsewhere. After you realized that the United States was only about 5 percent of the “Atlantic” Slave Trade you lost interest. After you realize that Islam was the biggest slave traders, using camel caravans to places like Timbuktu, you lost interest. The biggest slave markets were in places now called Tripoli. Part of the Islamic Slavers victims were small villages on the coast of England and Ireland. No I am not talking Vikings at the moment I am referring to the slavers from Libya. The Mediterranean/North African slave trade was the biggest ever and sold white and black slaves as far as the Byzantine Empire. For some reason our history books and school systems overlooked 99 percent of the Slave Trade. Islam has been trying to conquer Europe since the Moors invaded Spain on one end and the Ottomans attacked Constantinople on the other. Christian Knights did not stop them where they wanted but did stop them, driving the Moors back across the Mediterranean to Morocco. So you Ezra wimped out after the realization that the unity provided by the church has saved us many times in many places. You were very interested in Slavery when you thought you could embarrass the Catholic Church. Sorry to pop your bubble. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 31, 2007 11:20 AM:

" Why don't a bunch of us get together and make up a new religion? The Mormons did it very successfully. Instead of claiming we found tablets, we could claim we found buried computer files. This would be a grand opportunity to update the word of God. We could have God endorse the Christian right, and the Republican party. We could have God do revelations on a web site on the Internet. We could have someone like a Pope that speaks on Gods behalf, and can be contacted on the internet. Instead of a new testament and an old testament, we can have Apple PC's, and Windows PCs. The whole thing will appeal to the young, and create a new interest in religion. Laptops can replace Bibles. The possibilites are endless. All we need to do is figure out how to make money from it like Pat Robertson did. Worst case we can just have people send it to us, in the name of the Web. I think we could call the new cult the Church of the Latter Day Web. "

Dear Grumper wrote on Aug 31, 2007 10:52 AM:

" Islamics were honest enough to admit that parts of the Koran were contradictory, and made no sense. To solve this problem they made up some stuff about how the devil was behind certain versed in the Koran, thus the Satanic Verses that Solamen Rushdie wrote about. The Christian Bible has the same problem, with a lot of contradictions, and things that just plain don't make sense. Do you think the Devil could have been behind this problem? The devil is sure a useful fellow when one is pressed for an answer. I am sure if there were not one we would have had to invent one. I think the devil created cannibals just to eat the Christians that were trying to take over South America. I can think of no better way to deal with a missionary than to cook him with the right seasoning. "

Dear Grumper wrote on Aug 31, 2007 10:18 AM:

" I checked out the Christian Action web site. They seem to be upset about children being indoctrinated into Islam, rightfully so. How come they don't have the same problem with children being indoctrinated into Christianity? I am sure Islam is all the work of the devil and such, but don't you think we would all be better off if children were not indoctrinated into anything? When mind are young, why not let the truth suffice? Why is it all right to indoctrinate with Christian fantasy, but not Islam fantasy? Please explain without telling me how someone got eaten by a cannibal. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 31, 2007 9:47 AM:

" Web links often do not work well after being posted and going through the copy & paste procedure. However if anyone is interested they can put “Scourge of Slavery” in a search engine then pick the ChristianAction.org site. Slavery is/was such an ingrained part of early societies that the early Church could not possibly change it overnight. It is similar to our current situation of dealing with drunk drivers. People who are slaves to street drugs and alcohol once had an adversary called The Women’s Christian Temperance Union. Prohibition failed in a similar way that attempts to stop Slavery usually failed. We still tolerate slaves. The drug slaves fill brothels and prisons in this country and get little help or sympathy. They are all slaves to the pushers and are usually stolen from us as children by a twisted interpretation of freedom. "

To JC wrote on Aug 31, 2007 8:54 AM:

" I am taking your advice. At noon I will leave for a wonderful weekend enjoying all natures glory. I will see and enjoy things I don't fully understand. At night there will be wonderful stars. I don't know how all these good things came about, and I have no need to make up a bunch of stuff. God, if there is one, has been good to me. He gave me a mind to appriciate the universe. It is hard for me to imagine that he would give me a mind so capable of reason, then ask me to believe a bunch of silly stuff, that absolutely makes no sense. Why would anyone want to discuss the merits of listening to Mass in a language you don't understand. You would not go to a car dealer and ask him to tell you about the car in Chinese. This whole Mass language issue is a prime example of abusing our ability to think, by thinking about irrelevant nonsense. With all the great concerns on Earth like Global warming, the worst president in history, and our national debt, wasting time with the Latin Mass issue seems like a terrible waste of minds capable of so much more. "

JC wrote on Aug 31, 2007 6:42 AM:

" Up until the time I started reading these, I didn't realize that such a high percentage of "FACTS" were made up spontaniously, just to get one's point across! You people need to take a long weekend, away from the glare of your computer screen. Maybe, on Tuesday we can get back on track- LATIN MASS, DIVIDE OR UNITE!!! "

To Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 30, 2007 10:15 PM:

" You have a wonderful way of making things have a connotation. According to you there are good facts, and bad facts. The same holds true for history. There is good history, the kind that agrees with Grumpy, and bad history, the kind that doesn't. Any facts or history that don't support you are considered mud slinging. Anyone who reads history with an open mind would quickly see it was not as glorious as many would like to paint it. Just like the church you invent history, facts, and whatever suits your need. Since the history of the Catholic Church is so sordid, you have chosen to just revise history with a Grumpy flavor that suits your reality. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 30, 2007 7:11 PM:

" Ezra, here is some reading for you. http://www.christianaction.org.za/ articles_ca/2004-4-The ScourgeofSlavery.htm It is extraordinary that, considering that less than 5% of all the Trans Atlantic slaves ended up in North America, the vast majority of films, books and articles concerning the slave trade concentrate only on the American involvement in the slave trade, as though slavery was a uniquely American aberration. However, the vastly greater involvement of Portugal, Spain and France seem to be largely ignored. Even more so the far greater and longer running Islamic slave trade into the Middle East has been so ignored as to make it one of history's best-kept secrets. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 30, 2007 4:09 PM:

" Ezra, obviously you would love to paint the worst possible face on the history of civilization. I have a small question to ask. How do you feel about that Spanish sea captain that was the first to land at the Plate River in South America and was instantly eaten by cannibals? When peoples go to war and one side is winning, do you think the winning side should kill everyone? Would it not be nicer if the survivors were taken in as second class citizens by some method. You had ample opportunities to counter with good answers and you blew it. You could have cast aspersions at the King of England and the religion he started. Instead of letting me lead you away from the discussion on Mexico you could have researched the facts. You certainly do not know what happened on the Islands Columbus discovered. You might look up sugar cane plantations and Black Slaves taken to Cuba, Haiti, Puerto Rico, and other Spanish Islands. There were “no” Black People on this continent or on any nearby Islands prior to Columbus. Only Indians were on Caribbean Islands and on North, Central, and South America. Sugar Cane Plantations were brought to Spain by the North African Moors, and the Spanish took them to the Caribbean. You can find many sugar cane plantations and Black Slaves on east Atlantic Islands long before Columbus made his voyage. He soon found out that he had only gone half way and had discovered what we now call the Bahamas and the Caribbean Islands. With big money involved soon even the French English, and Dutch claimed Caribbean Islands and began their own plantations. The French were Catholic if you wondered. The Portuguese were Catholic and began slave colonies in South America. This was the only kind of world the Kings and rich Nobles of Europe, Mid East, and Africa understood. Our Revolutionary War was a big deal. Our Civil War was a big deal. Rather than applaud our successes inspired by our churches, you throw mud. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 30, 2007 1:38 PM:

" I find it exceedingly strange that whenever you ask someone an honest question, that they can answer with facts, they find it (a) hateful (b) divisive (c) undermining faith. The whole thing leads me to believe that independent thought must be evil, questioning must be divisive, and any introduction of reason must not be tolerated. This seems very much in line with an organization that bans the reading of certain books. The underlying idea is that people cannot be trusted to do their own thinking. Apparently the devil is behind reason, and independent thinking. I have a good Catholic friend who once told me "Education just confuses people". I had always hoped he didn't believe it, but now I am not sure. This seems to be part of the idea that you only read the history that agrees with your preconceived notions. "

To TimJ wrote on Aug 30, 2007 1:29 PM:

" As usual this doesn't make a bit of sense. If St. Paul had just come out and said slavery was wrong perhaps it would have eliminated a lot of suffering. By definition slavery would seem to be forcing one to work against their will. In the Magdalen Laundries run by the Catholic Church up until 1960 women were kept in captivity, not allowed to talk, and forced to do laundry. That does not seem to be what St. Paul had in mind. I think not allowing slaves to talk would certianlly go against the teaching of St. Paul. Unless you are like Grumpy Art who can never answer anything, why don't you explain why God did not just make a commandment "Thou Shalt not own slaves". It would have sure stopped a lot of misery. "

TimJ wrote on Aug 30, 2007 12:35 PM:

" Some of us are mature readers of these posts and so can very easily see through the intent of some posters whose agenda is to divide, disrupt, and discourage Christians. Their negative behaviors shouldn't be any surprise to Christians. St. Paul reminds Christians in his Epistle to the Ephesians (chapter 6:12), "Our battle is not against human forces but against the principalities and powers, the rulers of this world of darkness, the evil spirits in regions above. You must put on the armor of God if you are to resist the evil day; do all that your duty requires, and hold your ground." The minions of the Prince of Darkness that come in here to try to sabotage Christianity are trying to fight with God. We already know who will be victorious in this battle. "

TimJ wrote on Aug 30, 2007 12:26 PM:

" St. Paul in his Epistle to the Ephesians (chapter 6:5-9) addresses the topic of slaves and their relationship to their masters. "Slaves, obey your human masters with the reverence, the awe, and the sincerity you owe to Christ. Do not render service for appearance only and to please men, but do God's will with your whole heart as slaves of Christ. Give your service willingly, doing it for the Lord rather than men......Masters, act in a similar way toward your slaves. Stop threatening them. Remember that you and they have a Master in heaven who plays no favorites." St. Paul is not condoning or encouraging abusive behaviors of masters towards their slaves. He reminds masters that they will some day need to give an account to God for their actions. "

To Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 30, 2007 11:53 AM:

" Grumpy, your like a box of chocolate, you never know what you are going to get. However, you can be sure it has nothing to do with the question. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 30, 2007 11:10 AM:

" As usual Grumper you spun out of control. If I understand this correctly, the children who are left without parents in Africa because the Parents died of AIDs, are being punished because their parents had free will. Makes no sense to me that the children get punished for what the parents did. The father is a truck driver, and he contracts aids because the Catholic Church opposes the use of condoms. He brings AIDs home to his innocent wife. Both the husband and wife die. The free will decision of the Catholic to lie about the effectiveness of condoms results in orphaned children. Is this how free will works? "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 30, 2007 9:45 AM:

" Ezra, your 400 year old story about a graveyard did not get any mileage. You could not think of a good argument on the Slavery issue so you are going back to your Atheist Manifesto. You expound your version of “if God can do anything why can he not make a rock so big he cannot lift it”. Man was given free will. The Earth has cycles of not just summer and winter but plate tectonics and ice ages. Perhaps you should read about the Donner expedition to California in the 1840's. Every time a decision was to be made they made the wrong one. Starting out with a two story covered wagon, making a new trail through the Rockies, going south of the great salt lake where there was no water for them and animals. Finally they fought among themselves and tried to take wagons across the Sierra Nevada Mountains where no road previously existed. They needed two more weeks before the snow fell and did not get it. At any time before the snow fell they could have loaded their important items on oxen and finished the trip. Sometimes people make so many dumb decisions that even God will not or can not help them. Now they have a mountain pass and a lake named after them. It is called free will. Freedom can be a tough thing to handle. Right now more people die in this country from vehicle collisions caused by drunk drivers than any other cause including war. Do you think it is Gods job to scoop up all the drunks and drive them home each night? Or does God often wait for people to figure it out and use his churches to inspire people for the good. "

To Ezra wrote on Aug 30, 2007 7:30 AM:

" I don't care if religion makes no sense. It is a lot of fun and gives adults a chance to have a great fantasy. What else can adults do that lets them dress in goofy outfits? Besides it also lets you do what ever you want, then be forgiven. Things would be scary without religion, we would be faced with reality. Now, how would that be? Religion lets you pray for things, and you can hope you get them. It is just like the lottery ticket I buy. I get to think about what I am going to do with the winnings. The best thing of all about religion, is that I am the winner. I am right, and all the other guys religions are wrong. What is really great is that if you don't like what someone made up, you can make up your own version. You are free to be as silly as you want. If you are the evil or saddest type, you can always try to make someone else believe what you do. You can justify just about anything. Who are you to try to deprive me of all this fun? "

Ezra wrote on Aug 30, 2007 7:13 AM:

" Good morning Grumper. Here is your assignment for today. Put on your dancing shoes, and get ready to spin. Please explain where the logic of this statement fails. Don't launch off into a geography lesson. In brief, the problem is this: The traditional conception of God is as omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful), and benevolent. This implies that if God exists then he knows how to, wants to, and is able to prevent all suffering. If such a God existed, though, then he actually would prevent all suffering. Suffering, though, is a familiar part of the world around us; it has not been prevented. There is, therefore, no omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent God "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 30, 2007 1:18 AM:

" Ezra, obviously you could not find any Catholic Church involved in Slavery in the original 13 colonies. I'm sure that makes you sad. You seem to be catching on that the King of England had his own protestant religion and there were no Catholic Churches in the major plantation areas around old Virginia, North and South Carolina and such, when it was part of England. Nice that you are finally understanding the difference between "New England" and "New Spain". Why focus on one small Pueblo. Anyone who has read any history of the Conquistadors and New Spain knows it was a bloody conquest. You might ask yourself a few questions. Are there more Indians in the United States or are their more Indians in Mexico and Central America. Where did the Indians live the best lives, raise the best crops, have the biggest families. Where did they learn the most organizational skills and the best work ethic? Please do not just throw mud Ezra. Try to be so honest that you even believe yourself. Are their more healthy and happy Indians north or south of our Southern Border? Stopping Motezuma and his Aztecs from taking other Indians to the top of the pyramid and ceremoniously cutting out their beating hearts was a big deal. Stopping all the wars between the various tribes was a good thing. "

Matt wrote on Aug 29, 2007 11:00 PM:

" The main objective of some of these posts is to drive a wedge between believers and their faith, to pry them from it. To me that's creating division. To believers though, the result should be a unifying effect, hopefully for all christians to tighten their grip on their faith more firmly. "

Matt wrote on Aug 29, 2007 10:46 PM:

" Had Adam and Eve not disobeyed, good and evil would not have been known and there would not have been a need for religion. All the atrocities the world over whatever cover they have been done under, have been the misdeeds of men, but the teachings of Jesus Christ is sound. Can't prove or disprove God? He is the Alpha, the Omega, the Beginning, the End and that's all you need to know. "

Unity or division wrote on Aug 29, 2007 9:59 PM:

" This blog isn't creating any division, but possibly is helping bring about a better understanding of the Christian Faith for some readers of these posts. This blog is simply revealing what many of us have already known, and that is that there is much division among Christians, much division among people of various religions, and much division among people in general. Dialogue can help break down barriers, and open pathways to further dialogue and possibly lead to understanding. Trying to stiffle dialogue will only delay the work that is necessary for building understanding and unity. "

Independent wrote on Aug 29, 2007 7:57 PM:

" I think that all the dialogue in these blogs, if read by more people, would end up creating more division than whether a few congregations decided to have a Latin Mass once in awhile. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 29, 2007 7:40 PM:

" The topic is the Catholic Church, and its endorsement of slavery. Somehow Grumpy turns it into a dissertation on how rivers got their name. Grumpy, I ask you really, who is confused? If your computer is hooked to the same internet mine is you can easily find out a lot about how the Catholic Church endorsed slavery in South America, and in North America. I personally visited the Indians at the Acoma Pueblo and they told me how their women were forced by the Catholic Priest to do slave labor building a cemetery. These Indians are the direct people who were enslaved by the priest. Are they lying? The Indians rebelled against the Catholics and the Spanish because of the way they were treated. Lets here some of you revisionist repudiate this. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 29, 2007 3:58 PM:

" I heard a rumor that this country was an English Colony, which belonged to the King of England for its first 200 years. The Church of England was Protestant and subservient to the King (read about Henry the 8th). Except for the early Irish there were few Catholics involved in United States areas at first (see Latin America). Often the early English Colonies would put Irish Catholics around the outside of the towns as a buffer against the Indians. They had been mostly sheep herders and such in Ireland and were very comfortable outside the towns and on the frontier, as compared to most English who were more comfortable in cities. When a job was dangerous like “Powder Monkey” or dynamite worker, the Irish were used. The black powder and later dynamite was so unstable a person would not risk a slave that they paid good money for. If a Catholic Irishman blew himself up they could simply hire another. Anyway a casual look at a US map easily shows the areas dominated by the English Period. All the river names are not Indian Names on the eastern side of the Appalachian Mountains. In the original 13 colonies the names of the states and all other names are extensions of England. Later States like Ohio, Iowa, Dakota, are almost all are Indian names. After the Revolution this country no longer used names like the James River (after king James) preferring to name new rivers the Mohican river, or animal names like Raccoon and such. So anyone wanting to infer that the Catholic Church had any involvement in Slavery in the United States needs to read about New England and states like Virginia and South Carolina. (You might see South Atlantic Slave Trade to see how overwhelmed the priests were with the conquest of New Spain). "

slavery wrote on Aug 29, 2007 2:20 PM:

" Look up catholic church and slavery and you will find the truth ezra. You are wrong on this one buddy as you are wrong on most of the pitiful arguments you have made here. "

slavery wrote on Aug 29, 2007 2:18 PM:

" The Truth About the Catholic Church and Slavery The problem wasn't that the leadership was silent. It was that almost nobody listened. Rodney Stark July 1, 2003 Some Catholic writers claim that it was not until 1890 that the Roman Catholic Church repudiated slavery. A British priest has charged that this did not occur until 1965. Nonsense! As early as the seventh century, Saint Bathilde (wife of King Clovis II) became famous for her campaign to stop slave-trading and free all slaves; in 851 Saint Anskar began his efforts to halt the Viking slave trade. That the Church willingly baptized slaves was claimed as proof that they had souls, and soon both kings and bishops—including William the Conqueror (1027-1087) and Saints Wulfstan (1009-1095) and Anselm (1033-1109)—forbade the enslavement of Christians. Since, except for small settlements of Jews, and the Vikings in the north, everyone was at least nominally a Christian, that effectively abolished slavery in medieval Europe, except at the southern and eastern interfaces with Islam where both sides enslaved one another's prisoners. But even this was sometimes condemned: in the tenth century, bishops in Venice did public penance for past involvement in the Moorish slave trade and sought to prevent all Venetians from involvement in slavery. Then, in the thirteenth century, Saint Thomas Aquinas deduced that slavery was a sin, and a series of popes upheld his position, beginning in 1435 and culminating in three major pronouncements against slavery by Pope Paul III in 1537. It is significant that in Aquinas's day, slavery was a thing of the past or of distant lands. Consequently, he gave very little attention to the subject per se, paying more attention to serfdom, which he held to be repugnant. However, in his overall analysis of morality in human relationships, Aquinas placed slavery in opposition to natural law, deducing that all "rational ... "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 29, 2007 2:13 PM:

" To: To Science, or Ezra, (or Dante). You always try to confuse the argument by claiming some other poster here said something that in fact they did not say. Either you have extreme attention disorder or a touch of schizophrenia. Perhaps you are smoking drugs and laughing when you reverse someone else’s words. When you do this so consistently it tends to destroy any credibility your argument in the current discussion. You had a few points that were worth discussion but destroyed them with your recreational word twisting. "

science wrote on Aug 29, 2007 2:00 PM:

" You can make up history as you go or you can travel to the deep south and see the hatred people in that area have for catholics and their reasoning. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 29, 2007 1:46 PM:

" To: To Grumpy Art or Ezra. I write a detailed explanation of why the cotton gin should not be blamed for slavery and you turn it around. Either you enjoy turning sentences upside down or you confuse easily. There seems to be a number of writers who blame almost everything as being a cause that prolonged slavery. Many lawsuits have been planed and history rewritten. The history of slavery is bad enough but does not need to be exaggerated. There are similar people who blame all our hero’s for bad deeds. They also blame churches for excess something or another. Often they disguise themselves as environmentalists and strive to block construction projects or logging. They want to tear down the dams that give us hydroelectric power claiming to save salmon but endorse windmill that kill birds. Both Science and Religion has made life much better. Let me try to help you understand slavery a little better. First understand that the Babylonians owned slaves, also the Africans, Indians, Greeks, Romans, Vikings, Chinese, and every other group at one time owned Slaves. The Kings owned everybody. The end of institutionalized slavery in the United States ended with the Civil War. That means that this country had the shortest period of slavery of any country ever (About 80 years from Revolutionary War to Civil War). This is the first country ever where one group of people killed each other over another group being slaves. You do understand that motivated by freedom and the churches, the good white people killed many of each other to free black people. I doubt anyone can find a similar event in history. There was no slavery in New Guinea because they were cannibals. The churches have helped inspire them to change also. "

To science wrote on Aug 29, 2007 1:30 PM:

" You need to take Grumpy's dancing lessons. If you read history at all you will find that the Catholic Church had on its banned book list in the 1800 any anti-slavery tracts. That is certainly strange for a Church that was against slavery. Grumpy suggest when you do research you use old encyclopedias. This is a good technique if you want to prove the world is flat. If you you have the luxury of stopping the clock, you might be able to prove just about anything by using outdated material. "

For the Record wrote on Aug 29, 2007 1:17 PM:

" Theologian Laennec Hurbon may be cited as representing a belief among many authors that no Pope before 1890 condemned slavery when he stated that, ". . . one can search in vain through the interventions of the Holy See-those of Pius V, Urban VIII and Benedict XIV-for any condemnation of the actual principle of slavery." "

To Science wrote on Aug 29, 2007 1:10 PM:

" I can find no record of any Pope speaking out against slavery prior to the Civil War. If you find such a record, let me know. If you read any history of South America you will see that the Catholic Church went along very willingly to enslave Indians in South America. As has been mentioned here before, and even Grumpy admits it the Catholic Church enslaved women up until the 1960 in Ireland in the Magdalen Sister's Laundries. If you read Blood and Thunder a HIstory of the Southwest you will find that people frequently went out after Church (Catholic Church ) on Sundays and hunted Indian Children to enslave them. In order to defend the Church you will need to resort to the excuse Grumpy uses, " Everybody did it". At least Grumpy does not deny it happened, and the Church was duplicite in the evil. If you check the record, you will find Popes owned slaves, please explain that. "

science wrote on Aug 29, 2007 12:27 PM:

" You see to grumpy, now you see how absolutly ridiculous it is to blame religion for all the ills in the world, just like it is wrong to blame science for them all. It's a crock. As for the catholic church being pro slavery, that is 100% wrong Ezra. Many southerners to this day absolutly hate the catholic church becuase of their antislavery stance! "

To Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 29, 2007 8:23 AM:

" It never occurred to me that the discovery of lead caused world war II. However, I took history from Dr. Grumpy who explained to me how the cotton gin caused slavery, and it became clear that science is behind most evil. Automobile wrecks are caused by the discovery of gasoline, and the Wright brothers have caused most airplane wrecks. Once a person realizes that science is the root of all evil the fog lifts and we can see that religion is our only hope against the evils of science. After Grumpy's course I can now see the value of reversing progress and going back to the age of ritual and myth. Thanks for leading us out of the age of reason Grumpy. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 29, 2007 8:17 AM:

" Grumpy, I love your theory that God adapts to History. During times of slavery God and the Catholic Church had no problem with it. God goes with the flow. If burning witches is in, then why diss the Catholic Church for burning a few. The whole thing reminds me of the Mormans and how they dealt with Blacks. When it looked like a major public relations problem God sent word to the Mormon Church in the 1970's that Blacks had full rights. It seems strange to me that if God has a special line to Popes that he always tells them just to go along with the morality of the era. If morality is what ever happens to be popular at the time, don't we have a big problem? Please answer in Swahili, you answers never make any sense anyway. "

Ezra Favors Latin Mass wrote on Aug 29, 2007 8:01 AM:

" I favor the Latin Mass, I have tried communicating with Grumpy Art, and others in English. It has no effect on them. They are incapable of answering a simple question in English. The Mass could be in Chinese or Swahili, it would make no difference to these people. Their minds are set like concrete. They are splendid examples of what can happen to children exposed to cults, they don't outgrow it as adults. These are the people who have been to a magic show and believe it. They are the people who think you can win in Las Vagas. Does it make any difference what language you speak to people who believe in exorcisms, devils, idols, bleeding statues, miracles, virgin births, and purgatory? "

science wrote on Aug 29, 2007 7:40 AM:

" Ok Grumpy, I see your point now. My point still stands though, Christianity didn't cause slavery as Ezra would like to try to make everyone believe. The truth of the matter is, Religion has saved and helped more peoples lives than the people who have misused religion for their own gain have hurt. In fact, if followed properly, the teachings of the Catholic church, or indeed all Christian denominations, will lead a person to be a more caring, better human being who doesn't care about wealth but rather about the people around them. It's all about love. Poor Ezra still can't see past those who claim a religion but really dont follow it. Those are called Hypocrites my friend Ezra, and they are in every walk of life, even religion. Sad but true, people no matter what are still people. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 29, 2007 1:34 AM:

" To: Science: http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/rev-prel.htm Revolutionary War causes. And http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/phillips.cottongin Cotton Gin. "Figures don't lie but liars can sure figure". You notice that they give charts about Slavery and Cotton Production but never mention the Revolutionary War. How could they overlook a major war? Prior to the Revolutionary War England controlled who we could buy from and who we could sell to and imposed very high taxes. Naturally the charts would show an increase in agriculture and trade after we won independence. Why would they not mention that little item? History is being constantly sanitized and slanted. You could imagine the history "Ezra" would write about the Catholic Church if he wrote a book. You saw what he wrote about the laundries in Ireland without any mention of the social situation at the time. These are the same people who nit-pick about the Catholic Church as if all though history it was in some kind of sterile bubble unaffected by the external world. Perhaps the Latin Mass is an attempt by some to hold onto a little more stability in a crazy world where so many want to rewrite history. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 29, 2007 12:03 AM:

" Ezra. You are having delusions of grandeur again. Visualizing yourself as the great scribe Ezra on his box reading the law to the Israelites. You are more like a grain of sand on the beach. And you know what happens when seagulls fly over the beach. "

To: Ezra wrote on Aug 28, 2007 9:46 PM:

" All one needs to do in here to get you into a rant is to mention the words "prayer" or "church." You must find life to be quite frustrating with you trying to get churches to shut down, and then seeing Christians builting more churches. You are trying to convince the readers of the posts on this blog that prayer is useless, and then someone comes in here to talk about the value of prayer. If you stress yourself too much, you could get a nose bleed. "

science wrote on Aug 28, 2007 9:39 PM:

" Grumpy I am on your side on this. But the cotton gin, it is a historical fact, made slaves more valuable because they were needed to run it. That was a product of science. Now, the Catholic church fought slavery on a moral basis. My point is, Ezra is very confused on his beliefs. He says he hates religion for one thing, but then does the exact same thing he accuses religion of doing. "

Churches and Prayer wrote on Aug 28, 2007 9:32 PM:

" Why do you need a Church to pray? If you have free long distance to God, what is the point in spending millions for a church? Does God hear church prayers better? Why is there any need to pray? If God is truly loving, would he not do the right thing without being asked? For example: Why should you have to ask God to end a famine? God knows the people are suffering, would it not be cruel of him to let it go on until you asked him to end it? The same would be true for any prayer. It makes not an once of sense that a person should have to ask God to do what is right in the first place. If you are praying to praise God, is he that egotistical that he needs to hear it over and over? "

Value of Prayer wrote on Aug 28, 2007 8:03 PM:

" I just came home after having spent time in a Catholic church for private prayer. The time in church was well spent, and it was a time for me to be spiritually nourished. Now, I am checking this blog to see whether the anti-church crowd left any warnings on this blog on the dangers of praying and believing in God. Talking to God definitely has more value than being a non-believer in God and then finding that one is talking to oneself alot. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 28, 2007 7:47 PM:

" The historical Ezra was a priestly scribe who is thought to have led about 5,000 Israelite exiles living in Babylon to their home city of Jerusalem in 459 BCE. Many scholars credit him as the author of the Book of Ezra and the Book of 1 Chronicles in the Bible. I use the name Ezra, because I am trying to lead the delusion d out of their Babylon. Their Bablyon is the mythical belief that they are right, and everyone else is wrong. If I could lead 5,000 fundies into reality, I would be worthy of the name Ezra. "

Dear Grumpy wrote on Aug 28, 2007 6:55 PM:

" Please explain how it works. Anyone who disagrees with you is either, negative, hateful, or unhappy. Is it possible to disagree with you fantasy and be positive, loving, and happy? It seems strange that you suggest that it is a good thing that more people die from AIDs, disease, and other plagues eradicated by science, yet you claim to be the loving, happy, positive person. I don't believe in Hell. That seems very negative to me. Isn't that negative when you believe in it? "

Ezra wrote on Aug 28, 2007 6:11 PM:

" Grumpy you seem to have a lot of problems with the English language. You have a hard time with the concept agnostic. The concept of hate seems to befuddle you. Words mean something. When you are asked a question you seem incapable of a coherent answer. "

To: Ezra wrote on Aug 28, 2007 5:40 PM:

" If you don't believe in the existence of God, then why do you use the screen name "Ezra" who is an Old Testament figure who believed in God? Is this another symptom of your confusion? "

Who is an agnostic? wrote on Aug 28, 2007 5:38 PM:

" The term "agnostic" is commonly used to refer to a person who says that he/she doesn't know whether God exists, and at the same time will admit that there is no proof that God doesn't exist. An atheist is a person who claims that he/she doesn't believe in the existence of God, and doesn't believe in any kind of deity in any form. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 28, 2007 5:24 PM:

" To: Dear Grumpy or Ezra or Agnostic. Rather than confront all your negative emotions you attack everything that is good and pure. You need to deal with all your negatives. Then perhaps some group other than atheists could put up with you. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 28, 2007 4:43 PM:

" Sorry gg I read the science post to quickly and thought Ezra was ranting again. When I noticed that you always misspell “because” then I read it more closely. Sorry again. "

Dear Grumpy wrote on Aug 28, 2007 4:01 PM:

" You have started dancing again. I guess it is easier than answering questions. Please tell me how you define hate. Apparently anyone who does not hold the same views as you is full of hate. Secondly please explain how you can hate something that has no moral values. How can you hate science? Science is factual. I am not happy with my weight, but I do not hate the scale, or gravity. You seem to be spinning out of control again. Cut the dose in half one more time, and don't mix the pills with alcohol. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 28, 2007 3:26 PM:

" To: Science or Agnostic or Ezra. Again you have everything upside down. The cotton gin made slaves worth less. Machinery replaces labor in factory and fields and you misconstrue the implications and realities. You do not have the slightest grasp on what science and religion has accomplished with good people working together. "

science? wrote on Aug 28, 2007 12:41 PM:

" Starvation in Africa. Why? Because Science has wiped out many of the biggest predators to man, disease. Now there is overpopulation. Cancer? Another disease that has run amok because of the drugs science has given us to cure other diseases. Pollution, why? Science. How many Jews in WWII suffered due to scientific experiments dicated by the nazis? Millions. How many Africans and south americans have starved due to the overpopulation problem caused by science. Hundreds of millions. The fact is Science still hasn't come up with a good solution to get food to all of the extra people in the world. Oh and Chinas version of science, kill anyone who is deemed worthless. Yes, it seems Science is humane. Science doesn't take a moral stand or support anything? What do you call the little scientific experiement called the cotton gin which made slaves worth 100 times more? Science and religion are similar in one aspect. It's not the theory or the belief that causes it, it is the people using it for right or wrong. If followed as it should be, religion teaches to be good to one another, live right, love. You can't blame religion when in fact it is people who are using it for wrong. One other note, how many lives has religion saved? The count is hundreds of millions throughout history. Many have changed their way of life becuase of religion. Gone from a terrible person to a very good, caring person. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 28, 2007 12:03 PM:

" To Ezra, Agnostic, and your many other aliases. Lets review what you said in a previous post. You claimed to know that God would want but you do not believe in God? You claimed to have been in that Richardton Church doing charity work. But the friend you claim was with you was also obviously another militant atheist. You claim to know that people went broke during the Middle Ages building Cathedrals. Actually the stone masons were paid very well. Apparently you think Christians should only meet in empty fields. You are playing this way to close. Naturally I am referring to this post: Ezra wrote on Aug 23, 2007 7:57 AM: "

To Willy the Fundy wrote on Aug 28, 2007 11:27 AM:

" Lets put science up against religion in the suffering contest. How many people have been kept from diseases by scientific breakthrough. The number is in the hundreds of millions. How many people have been kept from starving by science? Again the number is in the hundreds of millions. How many lives have been saved by scientific break throughs? Hundreds of millions. Religion on the other hand has caused countless people to die of aids because the Catholic Church will not support the use of condoms. Religion had millions killed in the Crusades. Many were tortured and burned by religion during the inquisition. Religion supported discrimination and slavery. Science does not take a moral stand. To say science causes suffering is the equivalent of blaming gravity for heart attacks. Science is factual and neutral. Religion on the other hand selects some to be right, and some to be wrong. We are supposed to kill or change those that are wrong. I would think you could see the difference. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 28, 2007 11:02 AM:

" I don't hate religion, any more than I hate the Wizard of Oz. To me they are both the same. However, few wars have been started by people who believe in the Wizard of Oz. You might note that you can prove things scientifically. You can prove nothing with religion, because it is not based on facts. Every time you do an experiment in science, you get the same results. I know of know one who has been able to reproduce the resurrection experiment. Therefore, I would say it is unlikely it took place. How the word hate keeps coming up mystifies me. When you ask people to face reality and tell the truth, why is that considered hate? No one has yet explained that. If you disagree with me I don't assume you hate me. "

to ezra wrote on Aug 28, 2007 9:55 AM:

" How contradictary are you? You say religion has done more harm than good, but how many of our scientific break throughs came at the cost of lives? You blame the catholic church for overpopulation, but ini reality the earth was able to be overpopulated because of scientific breakthroughs in medicine which killed the diseases that prevented man from overpopulating the earth. then you solution to overpopulate is a drug in the form of birth control which can have very bad side effects and in fact cost the lives of many women to test. We wonder why cancer is so huge now? Could it be all the drugs being pushed on us now? Science has brought us polution, nuclear war, WMD's, etc. So the question now becomes, if you hate religion becuase of all the harm you say it has caused, why wouldn't you also hate science becuase of the harm it has caused? "

To Honest Omar wrote on Aug 28, 2007 8:58 AM:

" Thank you. You have said concisely what I have spent many words trying to get across to the fundies. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 28, 2007 7:47 AM:

" Your ability to attribute things to me I have never written is amazing. I don't care what you do, and you are free to do what you like. However, I do not think you should arbitrarily spread your problem. That means children should not be exposed to myth, unless it is clearly labeled as myth. Old ladies should be informed that evangelist make money from bilking them. My concept is complete disclosure. Before a religion gets people whipped up ready to go to war, the religion should clearly state that it has no basis in reality and is a man made story. I feel informed people can do what they want. I am against deceit. No religion I know of is honest in regard to the fact that it is a man made myth. Religious people can do and believe anything they want, just don't try to inflict it on innocent people. What is so hard to understand about that? "

LM wrote on Aug 28, 2007 7:35 AM:

" THE BOTTOM LINE IS THE BUCKS AND THE VATICAN HAS THE BUCKS, ALL FOR GODS GLORY. BALONEY! "

To: Ezra wrote on Aug 27, 2007 9:22 PM:

" But, you are against people having the freedom to choose whether they want to believe in God or not, the freedom to choose the religion to which they want to belong, the freedome to choose whether or not to give donations to the church of their choice, the freedom to choose whether or not they want to read the Bible, the freedom to choose whether they want to listen to evangelists in person, on the radio, or on television. Then you conclude by saying that you want to rescue people from those who want to control people. "

ME AGAIN wrote on Aug 27, 2007 8:53 PM:

" Do I detect a fence walker? You did not sign your name, but we all know who you are. You claim to be a non-believer, and yet when you drive by a certain edifice in Richardton a thought comes to mind - and I'll copy and paste, so I don't misquote you. " I kept thinking of God shaking his head and thinking "They got it wrong again". You blind sided us, but at least you do acknowledge GOD. Thank you, no on second thoughtTHANK GOD!!! "

Ezra wrote on Aug 27, 2007 8:20 PM:

" Grumpy, I am not anti anything. I am pro rational thought. I am pro using resources intelligently. I am pro education. I am pro telling young people the truth. I am pro science. I am pro reality. I am pro protecting the young and old from people stealing and abusing in the name of religion. I am pro peace. I am pro ridding ourselves of ancient destructive mythology. I am pro population control. I am pro disease control. I am pro taxing churches. I am pro making churches account for where the money comes from and where it goes. I am pro ending religious wars. I am pro women. What are you for Grumpy? "

To Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 27, 2007 8:14 PM:

" I have been by the church many time in Richardton. In the course of doing charity work for another community a friend involved in the work told me I should see the church. He was amazed that any group of people would create such a waste of resources that could have been used for so many good causes. I was amazed that as he said that money that could have been put to so many good purposes was wasted on this empty edifice. I kept thinking of God shaking his head and thinking "They got it wrong again". For only a dollar clean drinking water can be provided for a person in Africa for thee months I thought. These idiots could have saved a million people, what a shame. I thought of the poor farmers who were taken in by this scam and the sacrifice they made for nothing. The whole thing strengthened my resolve to end this madness. They could have done so much good, yet they did so much wrong. I realized they did this all over South America to poor people. "

Honest Omar wrote on Aug 27, 2007 7:01 PM:

" To all - I forgot to notice - Sep 2 is a Sunday!!! Do yourselves a favor. Skip mass (or whatever name your mumbo-jumbo is known as), and watch (listen) to Christopher Hitchens at 11:00 CT, Sun Sep 2 on C-Span II (CH 73 in Bis-Man area). Perhaps we can hope to reduce the number of would-be martyrs, willing to blow up all of us for nothing. One poster asks why we non-believers pay so much attention to a subject that we (her words) have little interest in. It is simply because 'believers' are capable of such monstrous atrocities, in the name of the completely unknowable, that we must pay continous attention. We can do no less. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 27, 2007 6:34 PM:

" Ezra, you said you have been inside that church in Richardton. Why would an agnostic or atheist go inside a church and why would you post anti religious material on a site about Latin Mass. Were you "stalking" a building? Are you leading a campaign against churches? Have they passed your picture around to the Monks yet? Do you think the Church should get a restraining order against you yet? Using a scale of 1-10 with ten the highest, how much should the Church worry about you. "

Honest Omar wrote on Aug 27, 2007 6:21 PM:

" Ezra, you have listed a couple of excellent books. I would like to add (again) another. It is End of Faith: Science, Terror, and the Future of Reason by Sam Harris. It won the PEN Award for non-fiction in '04. It is a marvelous recitation of the monstrous evil that can be perpetrated by people (groups) that have been taught from childhood that they have a special relationship with the inventor of the universe. From that certainty comes the conviction that all other viewholders are wrong. It is only a small step from such arrogance that violence against the non-believers must follow. It is for this very reason that we secular humanists check on blogs like this - we try to confront absurdity wherever we find it. We can do no less. The future of US on this planet may soon depend on the successful eradication of nonsensical interpretations of archeological history, biodiversity, and a whole host of other issues that have no relevance to 'biblical' explanations. The sooner we get there, the better. Even for the dreamers that want it otherwise. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 27, 2007 5:38 PM:

" GG, if you are well read, let me know what you have read on the opposite side of the issue. I will make you a deal. You read either The God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins, or God Is not Great. I will pick from one of two books you tell me to read. In this post is a reference to a letter Richard Dawkins wrote to his daughter. Read it and tell me which part of Richard Dawkins argument is flawed. If you would like to present me with a similar challenge, I would gladly accept. "

gg wrote on Aug 27, 2007 4:35 PM:

" Ezra, you tell me to grow up and yet I am not led to hate by my religion. In fact I love all as my religion teaches. The problem occurs becuase people don't follow what their religion teaches. You seem to act as though I am not well read and yet I have read many books on many topics. You seem to act as though my religion was not my choice and yet I assure you it was. The difference is I have seen the miracles God can work in a life first hand and I refuse to believe it to be an act of coincidence or anything short of a miracle. I just find it odd, you are trying to "save" people from religion but in doing so you act very similarly to the "fundies" you despise so much. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 27, 2007 3:14 PM:

" GG, I have had a very good life. I am not much for material things. Although I am a millionaire, I drive a car that is seventeen years old and has over 220 thousand miles on it. I live much more modestly than I have to. I don't collect toys. I like nature and reading intelligent literature. My goal is to be happy, and in order to be happy I would like to see other people happy. I have seen the destruction caused by religion and the people led into hate by it. I would like to see this stop. I do not need to make something up when I don't have and answer. Religion is a man made system for those afraid of the unknown. I see not need to be scared into doing what is right. I think a good book on ethics is far better than the Bible. feel sorry for those imprisoned by the small mindedness of religion. If there is an after life that is fine with me. I don't think God will judge me by if I was a member of some organization that hated, killed, and tortured in his name. Why do you need this religious fantasy so badly? Grow up read a little, and learn a lot. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 27, 2007 1:53 PM:

" Thanks for the info, maybe some of the fundies will watch, but they are very careful not to get their bubble burst with a dose of reality. "

Honest Omar wrote on Aug 27, 2007 11:50 AM:

" Ezra, Great posts!! For what it's worth Christopher Hitchens is scheduled to appear on C-Span II 'Book TV" (Ch 73 in Bis area) at 11:00 AM on Sep 2. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 27, 2007 11:04 AM:

" Ezra. My only point is that your favorite author picks and chooses in order to sell controversial books on politics and religion. During the age of kings everyone was property of the King. Slavery was just the bottom of the ladder of ownership by the king. During Feudalism it was common for a soldier to refuse to leave the battlefield where his feudal lord lay injured or dead. When the first Europeans came to this country they must have been amazed that the Indians were so free. No taxes, no tiers of ownership, no loyalty oaths. The first trappers that went to the interior areas, often to marry Indian women, must have been totally blown away by the amount of freedom and open space. No question in my mind that the early Europeans Americans would not have been as likely to have our “Revolutionary War” if they had not been confronted by the freedom before them that changed their way of thinking. Freedom is contagious. Unfortunately for the Indians so were European diseases. During the Middle Ages the king owned everyone in town except the Priest. The Priest was perhaps perceived to be owned by the Pope. (Again in my opinion) This often gave the Priest the position of the man in the middle that actually knew how people outside the castle lived. Take some time away from that atheist book long enough to read the “red” words in the New Testament. If you agree with the parables and message taught by Jesus the rest is just details. How would I vote on Latin Mass if I were Catholic? I think it is up to the majority of the congregation to give their opinion in free and open discussion. You and I need to butt out. "

gg wrote on Aug 27, 2007 7:39 AM:

" Ezra, you claim you are a good person trying to rid the world of nonsense. You blame religion on every bad thing in the world? Then you call the religious the delusional ones? It seems you have your very own religion though. And your religion has caused more deaths in China than any Christian religion has throughout the years. Lets not forget the romans killing Christians also. Russia, Vietnam, and Loas all hated religion so they killed the religious to. So which side really has caused more harm than good in the world? Secondly, what is life to you without God? Is it all about making as much money and having as much toys for yourself? I mean, after all, you believe when you die you will be nothing, so what really is the point of your short life here? In your view you live, you die, no one remembers you. You live in fear of the unknown and so you just decide there is no unknown? "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 26, 2007 11:02 PM:

" Ezra, I would recommend you read on the history of “World Slavery” in an old encyclopedia. As you know many new books have been sanitized to be “politically correct”. Often the Library is the best place to read old encyclopedias. Then you could read a little about the history of money. In current times we use money to trade favors or items. We might use a blue book value of exchanging cars for example with some money going one way or the other. Working backwards we could read about share cropping and feudalism. The Bible tells us of money being used for Jewish Festivals 2,000 years ago (the moneychanger’s tables were turned over, etc). Clearly they were also bringing in animals to the festival. During our great depression there was not enough money in circulation and stamps were printed. Modern economics dictates that as the population increases more money needs to be printed. I am not making alibis for slavery only some issues “during the age of Kings”. Slavery in this country was mostly during the time we were subjects of the King of England (1600’s to almost 1800). It took us about 80 or so years after we whipped the King in the Revolutionary War to finally end slavery with our Civil War. Nothing happens overnight. You might recall that in the early days of this country only property owners could vote. Times will change in all areas and we could not stop change if we tried. We could blame the church for being around at some particular time in history or we could read about how many priests were working for people’s rights. The history of Mexico is a case in point with lots of documentation of Priests unhappy about the treatment of Indians by Spanish Soldiers. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 26, 2007 10:24 PM:

" Ezra, you are jumping around again. You know you are a good person. I once thumbed through a book that claimed the Christian religion had 350 + different denominations and claimed to explain why many appealed to a different group or economic level. Either you have not found the right church or you find the most comfort being outside the Church. You can still read the basic teachings of Jesus in the New Testament and see if you agree or disagree. Everything around us has changed over the years. A simple birthday party is not anything like what it was years ago. The technology and marketing that has gone into birthday cards and aluminum balloons and such combined with the numerous indoor activities like computer games has made its mark. Some churches try not to be effected, like this discussion about Latin Mass. Some have used technology to inspire. At my high school they once had a religious talk at the auditorium one night that involved the then new stereophonic sound systems. They played the recordings of two trains that sounded as if they were coming from opposite sides of the curtains. As the sounds converged in the center of the stage there was a loud crash. The very religious speaker was trying to explain how different dimensions could exist in one place. I thought he was being very silly but it worked at some level for some others. In religion I prefer that things not change very fast. I would not want to go back to the time my Great Grandfather was a Hell Fire and Damnation Preacher in Des Moines. In religion I like change for the good, just not to fast. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 26, 2007 9:55 PM:

" Amen Art, I am a good person. I am trying to free people from their delusions. I have been trying to figure why women cannot be priest. I was surprised to learn in my research that Popes at one time owned slaves, as did Catholic missionaries. I know, "Everybody did in those days, so it was Ok". All I have been able to find so far is that the church at least up until the 1960, did not consider women full persons. Just like Blacks could not get to heaven in the Mormon Church until the 1970. It all prove my point about how religion is so caught up in the my group, is superior to your group routine. which ultimately leads to war. We complain about how Muslims treat women, then we say they don't have full rights in our Church. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 26, 2007 9:45 PM:

" You say you volunteer but then you say, “Although I don't believe in their God, why do I have to do his work”? You still have some conflicting emotions at work. Way down deep you know you are a good person and want to help others, that is why you volunteer. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 26, 2007 9:42 PM:

" I cannot find an explanation of why women cannot be priest. The Divine Law argument is just more silly stuff. Where is this written down? It seems like a typical religious dodge. What woman in her right mind would join a boys club that said she could not have full membership. Every modern society now allows a woman to be head of state. Why does God think they cannot do his tricks in front of the congregation? Religion has always been very good at making people subservient. Blacks suffered greatly because all religions once held them in low regard and allowed them to be enslaved. Women have always come up short with most religions. What does God have against women? Maybe Satan is a woman. "

To Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 26, 2007 8:55 PM:

" I was working on my assignment. I was just spinning the channels on television and was amazed by the number of channels devoted to some church trying to bilk old ladies. Of course the Catholics are on there with their brand of mythology for sale. I cannot speak highly of any religion. Unitarians seem to be on the right track. I do admire the Quakers for their anti war position. In honesty I would have to say every church tries to so some good, it is good PR. However, when you look at the total picture and what religion has done to the planet we would be better off without the nonsense. I fail to see why you need a church to do good. In my home town I frequently take the older men to Bismarck to the doctor because they can not drive themselves. It is always a mystery to me why the main heathen in town is doing the work their own church should be. I drive all religions that ask. Please explain why an agnostic has to take the religious to the doctor, whey their own church cannot get the job done. I have driven Catholics, Methodist, and Lutherans. Although I don't believe in their God, why do I have to do his work? If you need a ride to Jamestown let me know. I will pay for the gas. "

Women can't be priests wrote on Aug 26, 2007 8:53 PM:

" One poster has brought up the so-called injustice of the Catholic Church a couple times because women may not, and cannot, be ordained priests in the Catholic Church . Other posters have given the Church's explanation why the church isn't able because of Divine Law to make ordination available to priests. The poster with the so-called concern about the injustice of the Church isn't responding to the explanation of Divine Law in this matter. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 26, 2007 8:31 PM:

" To Ezra or Agnostic. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I spent more than a few years working a distant prison system that was attempting rehabilitation. Back then the new concept in rehabilitation was to let people talk about whatever they wanted to talk about, assuming that eventually they would tell you what was really on their mind. The old timers knew that you needed to pin them down on “why are you angry” and stay on topic. Sometimes you need to examine topics that might be on their mind to at least encourage them to deny where you are way off base. None of this is rocket science and I am not going to send you a bill. But now we know why you were so upset about that building in Richardton. It was exactly the kind of thing your favorite author was unhappy about. We are making progress. Now your assignment is to read about various churches to see how many are doing the good work you think should be done. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 26, 2007 7:39 PM:

" What a cheap trick Grumpy Art. There are over four hundred reviews of GOD IS NOT GREAT on Amazon.com. Of course you pick one that goes your way. Try this one, from the same source. "God is not Great" is Christopher Hitchen's exhaustive deconstruction of the institution of religion. Hitchen's leaves no stone unturned to brilliantly undermine every aspect of religious thought and practice. Some examples: an examination of the conflicting source material that formed the basis of the "holy" books, the downright weird content of the books themselves, he asks the question "does religion help people behave better?" (it doesn't), and "is religion a form of child abuse?"..and so on. By the end of the book religion is so shot full of holes that it comes crashing down in a heap. I dare anybody to counter Hitchen's arguments with logic - not blind faith - but logic. This is a brave book that will have athiests cheering. Sadly much of the world will continue to practice their own particular brand of ignorance and intolerance. "God is not Great" is a beacon of reason - and dare I say it hope - in this crazy world. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 26, 2007 7:23 PM:

" To: To Grumpy Art (or Agnostic or Ezra). In recent years there has been an ultra left movement that “blames” the Christian Churches for getting Bush elected. About seven years ago there was a Black republican lady who called a radio talk show to complain about her friends having parties where they would sing songs about how stupid Bush is and how much they hate him. You know it was a “San Francisco thing”. It is totally amazing how many people think the world would be different if Bush was not elected. I might remind you that the 911 terrorists were learning to fly commercial jets during the Clinton administration. So Bush is just one more reason for you to jump into a discussion about Mass being in Latin. The reason you pretended to be unhappy about women not being priests. The reason you pretended a church was to big for the town it was in. Like your favorite author you needed to find issues with religion. During the age of exploration of the seas, our ancestor never found any remote tribe that did not have a religion. You are really swimming upstream. "

To: Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 26, 2007 6:48 PM:

" http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/dawkins2.html This is a reference to Richard Dawkins letter to his daughter. It is titled Good and Bad Reasons for Believing. I would like you or any fundy to point out any error in Richard Dawkins thoughts to his daughter. The letter sets out very clearly what I believe. Give me your spin Art. "

To Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 26, 2007 6:41 PM:

" Perhaps we are making progress. You did take the time to do a little research. Now this assignment is going to be tougher. Look up Richard Dawkins, and you will find if you search a letter he wrote to his ten year old daughter. Search Richard Dawkins Letter to Daughter you will find it. Read the letter he wrote explaining how to know truth. I would like your spin on it, above all tell me where he is wrong. I will try to get you a better reference. For the record, I do not believe in any book. How anyone could believe in a book, is a strange concept. I believe what appears to me to factual after it has been subjected to some kind of reality test. I wish you would explain why you think I am angry. I had a good weekend, with good company, and good meals. What do I have to be angry about? "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 26, 2007 5:42 PM:

" Agnostic or Ezra. You spelled his name wrong but here is part of one book review on that particular book. http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446579807 Hitchens, one of our great political pugilists, delivers the best of the recent rash of atheist manifestos. The same contrarian spirit that makes him delightful reading as a political commentator, even (or especially) when he's completely wrong, makes him an entertaining huckster prosecutor once he has God placed in the dock. And can he turn a phrase!: "monotheistic religion is a plagiarism of a plagiarism of a hearsay of a hearsay, of an illusion of an illusion, extending all the way back to a fabrication of a few nonevents." "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 26, 2007 4:37 PM:

" Agnostic or Ezra. In your response to GG you stated your position very well. You are not just agnostic and you are not just angry at one church. You are against all churches. You prefer to believe an author who claims to be against all religion. You prefer to read that book rather than look for yourself. I respect your position a little more now that you stated it well. Some books and movies are paid for by people of opposing religions claiming not to believe any religion. I bet your preferred book was not published in any Mid-East country. I once had many conversations with an old Hollywood actor who claimed every movie has a message "cloaked in the script". At least the book you read was a little more honest about its subject than Hollywood's preferred method. And you are becoming honest. I think we are getting somewhere. "

To Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 26, 2007 4:13 PM:

" I must be writing in Chinese, or it is showing up on your computer that way. I am not angry, mad, or unhappy because of religious nonsense. To entertain myself I like to see if you can effect people with rational thought. I should know better, but you cannot reason with people who cannot tell fact from fiction or reality from fantasy, however it is fun to see how they respond. If people like you were willing to do real research, which means you read outside your comfort zone, you would hopefully see the world differently. Frankly I am fascinated by the ability of some people to fool other people into irrational behavior. George Bush is a classic example. Bush tricked the fundamentalist into electing him president. Now, they all no what a mistake they made. How many, now face with the proof will admit they were wrong? This is the phenomenon that I am studying, but analyzing f undies. "

To GG wrote on Aug 26, 2007 3:46 PM:

" My daughter is not Catholic, and never will be. As I said earlier she was raised without the need for religious nonsense. She attended one of the top schools in the country and has done very well. She is a happy fine productive adult. Her husband was raised as a Catholic but out grew it. Like many people that become educated he realized the silliness of the religion. If you take the time to read these blogs you can get a good idea of my position on religion. I recently read, and agree with Christopher Higgen's book. GOD IS NOT GREAT OR RELIGION POINSENS EVERYTHING. The book contains all the reasons no intelligent reasonable person would support religion. Currently there is a movement abreast to rid the world of the mess religion has created. Just like many things it will take years to bring people to their senses. Once it was discovered the world was not flat it took many years to spread the idea. My basic tenet is that religion causes way more hate and strife, than any good it does. If I can help prevent more people from being drawn into this mess, I feel I have done my part to make the world better for my children. If you read all the entries to this entire blog you will see that the fundies melt when they are hit with reason. Grumpy Art is a classic. Once you ask him a rational question, he spins out of control. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 26, 2007 3:35 PM:

" Grumpy Art Agnostic….. (or Ezra, or) Where did you go? Did I hit a nerve? You did not know that most agnostics are apathetic by definition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic You were obviously not aware that there is no good excuse for your anger at any church. You were jumping to conclusions not supported by any facts. There have always been wars. If you lost a friend or relative in the Vietnam war you should read about the post WWII situation and what parts of it led to that war. If there is something personal about the present war you should do more research about Saddam and the history of wars, and so called religions extremists, of that area. If you once worked in a job where all management was a particular religion you should state your case against those individuals showing discrimination. You complained that women could not be priests and that a particular building was too large. Do you know a lady who wants to be a priest or do you know someone who you feel has contributed too much money to the building you despise. Perhaps you have never seen the number of older women sitting at slot machines. They need your efforts more than the church does. You could move to Las Vegas or Reno and be very happy fighting corruption. If you tried to combine all religions as you suggest then the religions that worship many Gods and the religions that worship one God might have people who think you are nuts. I think you have issues that should never have been stated here where people are responding to the issue of Latin Mass. I am sure you can state your case without claiming to be angry or acting as if angry. Be advised that I have good friends that are both Catholic and other religions and I will fight very hard for their right to be happy in their Church. Not being Catholic I am not burdened with fighting fair. Come back to the dance. "

gg wrote on Aug 26, 2007 1:02 PM:

" Ezra, I notice on here you have spoken about your son-in-law being catholic. Does this mean your daughter has become catholic as well? If so, does that mean you have failed to stop her from the delusion as you call it, or does that just confirm that all people feel the deep down need for God and while some just hide that, others embrace it and seek him? "

Women's ordination wrote on Aug 26, 2007 12:33 PM:

" For those who asked for a copy of the statement of Pope John Paul II giving reasons why women can't be ordained priests in the Catholic Church, this is what the pope wrote in 1994: "{The church} holds that it is not admissable to ordain women to the priesthood, for very fundamental reasons. There reasons include: the example recorded in the Sacred Scriptures of Christ choosing His Apostles only from among men; the constant practice of the Church, which has imitated Christ in choosing only men; and, her living teaching authority which has consistently held that the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God's plan for His Church." "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 25, 2007 8:40 PM:

" SG, or To, or Ezra. Thank you for being wrong again. You are the best argument for mass being in Latin. We have so many religions because people find fault and think they know a better way. People like yourself that claim the church should change to your value system. When Churches split it is often for purely local reasons. Far more often it is about some interpretation of the scriptures that appeals to someone's personality or bias. The Shakers are not around anymore. They were a splinter group of the Quakers except Shakers believed in total celibacy (no children). http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/Shakers.html They are not around anymore but the furniture they made is very valuable. It is not good to let outsiders or insiders change the core beliefs and rituals. "

sg wrote on Aug 25, 2007 5:13 PM:

" Religions that proclaim their path as the ONE true path to salvation thrive by dividng us.For some reason the dividing religions all originated in a small part of the world and where still to this day they continue to kill each other about in inhuman ways. The Abrahamic religions, as they have come to be practised, not in their core values,have been the bane of humanity. Latin or non latin mass, I believe unity is unlikely. The human mind knows its own way to salvation and that way is not dependent on exclusionary faiths but in inclusive ones. "

To: Agnostic wrote on Aug 25, 2007 3:37 PM:

" No one is saying that this blog is restricted to Catholics only. Let me repeat my question to you again, but very slow this time: If the Catholic religion presents such a problem for you, why do you spend time reading posts in a blog that is obviously Catholic? Your comments have not addressed the main topic of this blog which is whether having Mass in Latin would unite or divide Catholics. "

To: Agnostic wrote on Aug 25, 2007 3:24 PM:

" One mistake that Martin Luther and other reformers made at the beginning of the Protestant Reformation was that they tried to reform the Catholic Church from the "outside." They soon discovered that they were "outsiders" and that "outsiders" are never able to change those on "the inside." The Jesuits were intelligent enough to understand that one is able to bring about change, however slow the change might be, within the church then to leave the church and to try to bring about change in the church. If the Protestants haven't been able to reform the Catholic Church from the outside during the past 500 years, how do you, as an agnostic, expect to reform the Catholic Church from the outside? "

JC wrote on Aug 25, 2007 3:23 PM:

" Dear Agnostic; Why would you ever have bothered taking Theology, you seem to have all the answers. You stated: "I have even taken theology classed in college." I copied and pasted from your post, was this a typo, or did you mean you took more than one Theology class? Why were wasting your money, and the instructors time, for something you don't believe in? Another thing; what is "midevil nonsense"? Is that something to do with Lucifer? Did You mean medieval? I have trouble following your ramblings. God Bless You! "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 25, 2007 3:14 PM:

" Agnostic, if you grew up listening to preachers on your radio, and still are drawn to religious sites and discussions, one wonders. Why would a person who claims to be agnostic be so preoccupied with religion. Obviously you have some kind of love-hate thing going on. You are peeking in on the subject you claim to not believe. Secretly you hope to be invited in but you have these mental blocks and barriers you have created. Walking away from doubt is like laying down a heavy load. I think you can find a way to do this that would work for you. Maybe that building you claim to hate is calling you, calling you inside, and you know it means something to you. You claim that other people need medication because you know you need something to stop your opposing forces at work. All you need to do is to let it go, release the negatives, exhale and relax. Now go apologize to that building you claim to hate. Apologize to the memory of the people who lovingly built it. Apologize to the grass around it. Help the poor people of Puerto Rico by buying some of their Rum. Then take a big drink and baptize yourself by jumping in the lake. "

Agnostic wrote on Aug 25, 2007 2:08 PM:

" Since I was a teenager and grew up listening to preachers on my local radio station bilk people, I have been fascinated with the process. I have even taken theology classed in college. I would like to understand how adults are sold such a silly bill of goods that is way more fantasy than fact. As an adult I have come to realize that the evil of religion goes far beyond the old preachers like Pat Robertson who were just enriching themselves. I now see how religion may ultimately be the end of the human race when competing religious nuts use nuclear weapons. If I can do anything to help bring peace to the world by stopping this midevil nonsense, I will feel like I have done something useful in my life. Every place on the planet you see where religion has caused problems. It is time for a new age of enlightenment. "

Agnostic wrote on Aug 25, 2007 1:50 PM:

" The Bismarck Tribune failed to label this blog as Catholic. If it is restricted to Catholics, I think they should post it as such. Because 1.1 billion people are anything, it does not mean they are correct or harmless. There may be 1.1 billion Muslims, or communist in the world. If they are creating havoc, it might be well to do something about it. The Catholic Religion has played a major role in spreading disease, causing overpopulation, and driving people into poverty throughout the world. In this regard I think we all have an obligation to do something about it. If you read this blog, you can find all the pros and cons. You can make up your own mind. I think anyone can see the immorality of taking millions of dollars in the name of religion and making some useless edifice, when they could have provided clean drinking water to millions of people, as a major social injustice. "

Agnostic wrote on Aug 25, 2007 1:33 PM:

" A good friend of mine went to Puerto Rico on a charity mission. He was so disgusted with the over population caused largely by the Catholic Churches position on birth control. He gave up, the situation was hopeless. I feel personally affected by the fact that the Catholic Church has told delibrate lies about the effectiveness of condoms, both in preventing aids, and over population. In my mind it is pure evil to preach against something that has been shown statistically, and scientifically to work. The net result is that millions of people suffer, and children are left without parents, because of the teaching of the Catholic Church. The Church should require priest to use condoms when they are abusing young boys to protect the boys form aids. The Church should not pay out money to keep priest out of jail if they fail to use condoms. "

To: Ezra wrote on Aug 25, 2007 12:39 PM:

" You have finally opened your mind and heart to one, but only one, observation that many posters in here have been making to you: that their trying to help you overcome your delusional thinking is an act of love. "

To: To Women's Ordination wrote on Aug 25, 2007 12:30 PM:

" Are you a Catholic women who wants to be ordained a priest? If you are, then you need to understand that ordination of women to the priesthood in the Catholic Church or Orthodox Church is not an option. If you can't accept Pope John Paul II's teaching on the Divine Law on this issue, then there isn't anything either I or any other Catholic can say that will be helpful to you. If you are a Catholic woman that wants the right to be ordained, be treated as an equal without any exceptions, and be allowed the freedom to choose what ever you wish to do with your life, you will find those options available to you in the Episcopal Church. The Episcopal Church allows women's ordination to the priesthood, they allow openly gay bishops to live with a same gender partner, and, they allow the blessing of same gender unions. Why waste your time and energy trying to fight a 2,000 year tradition when you can get everything you want in the Episcopal Church? "

Ezra wrote on Aug 25, 2007 12:17 PM:

" I am perplexed. Why do people assume that if you have a different view point, or reveal facts they do not like, you are hateful, or angry. When I went to school and the teacher pointed out that certain answers on my test were wrong, I never saw it as hate or anger. How do you make this transition? How do you assume that anyone who has a different view is angry or hateful? Please explain. If you went to a doctor and he said you need to lose weight, or stop drinking, would you consider him angry, and hateful? Helping people break away from delusional thinking is an act of love. "

To the Agnostic Poster wrote on Aug 25, 2007 12:13 PM:

" If the Catholic religion presents such a problem for you, why do you spend time reading posts in a blog that is obviously Catholic? Do you expect to convert 1.1 billion Catholics world-wide to your agnostic way of thinking by your posts in here? Which of the Catholic church's teachings has had a negative influence upon you personally? "

To Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 25, 2007 12:10 PM:

" I said cut the dose in half, I think you doubled it. I am not angry at anyone. I lead a good, happy, productive life. I have a wonderful, and two wonderful children. I have plenty of resources, and I would only like to see more people do well. I am happy when I do not have to see evil, and corruption. I don't talk to buildings, nor do I talk to statues, crosses or other inanimate objects. I don't worship cups of wine and pieces of bread. Now, I ask who do you think is crazy? "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 25, 2007 11:37 AM:

" To: To Grumpy Art. At least you finally rode a pony somewhere. You do not like the Catholic building in Richardton because you believe nothing, and anyone who disagrees with you needs their medication adjusted. It is actually good to have an angry agnostic around to keep people on their toes. I am sure you are aware that the average agnostic does not get mad at buildings. I am forced to ask if you have ever talked to a building or had a building answer. Has a building ever been a really good or bad friend. Perhaps you know that in science “nothing is ever wasted”. Everything just changes from one state to another. Every atom in your body has been around since the “big bang” and the supernovas that followed. But there is that special little energy field that comes from your brain to think and run muscles. You must believe that it just turns off like a flashlight? That does not sound like much fun. Christmas must be real fun at your house. Anyway it is a “realistic” fact that people can do more good in groups than individually. When you give your money to Bill Gates fund he will have people who decide what is done with it. Would in not be nicer to have a voice in which charities your money goes. And our government has lots of programs helping other countries. I put a news article in one of my last few posts about the Nuclear Power Plant we are trying to help India build. The communists in India’s government are trying very hard to block it. Apparently you think that if Bill Gates paid his taxes in full none of the money would go overseas? Wrong again. "

To Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 25, 2007 10:19 AM:

" I am agnostic. That means I am adult enough to admit what I know, and what I do not know. I have no need to make up answers, when I don't have them. I think you need to get your medication adjusted. I would recommend you cut the dose in half. It seems to be getting you too excited, and giving you Attention Deficit Disorder. I have no problem with any religious organization in particular. I have no use for any of them. They were all man made political organizations meant to control the poor and ignorant. In the process most of them have created a lot of serious problems on the planet. I want my children to live in a more peaceful rational world, that is why I try to do what I can to eliminate the fantasy put forth by religious people. Religion is not the solution, it is the problem. I don't care what religion it is. I don't care if people are religious, I just have a problem when they use religion to agitate, and bilk. I also have a big problem with putting nonsense in the minds of the young. It there were truth in labeling and the religious told the young people, " This may all be a fabrication for all we know", then I would have not problem with it. We label cigarettes and let people make their own decision, I think the same should be true for religion. It might also be a good idea not to expose children to it until they are 18 or over. Religion has killed as many people as cigarettes, and this doesn't include the torture, burning, and enslavement. We can hardly ask others to give up their religious fanaticism until we are willing to control ours. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 25, 2007 8:52 AM:

" To: To: Grumpy Art. Welcome back to the dance. Perhaps you can comprehend that the Churches do not need any big tax dodges but Bill Gates certainly does. I threw you a bunch of lead lines and you did not ride any of those horses. You are still on the same Merry Go Round. Dude you are riding in circles blaming the Church for wars, fixating on a particular building as a waste of money, and claiming you want to send money overseas when actually the various churches are the ones sending money overseas. Serious and good intentioned folks spend lots of time in church groups contemplating what is the best way to use their energies and spend the church monies. Lots of web sites will tell you where churches spend monies. I did not miss the recent priest scandals, nor the fire department scandals or the police scandals. I did not miss the various Enron type embezzlements nor Saddam shooting at our planes prior to our last invasion. I even noticed that the son of reverend moon is now manufacturing a pistol. You might remember the Moonies that took over a small Oregon town by bussing up his young hippie type converts from Los Angeles. Nice to know all that money he raised went to something other than his car collection. So why are you so mad at the Catholic Church and why do you know so little about the Bible. Are you Islamic? Or what are you going to say at the pearly gates if there is a Viking standing there saying that you have done nothing to rate entering Valhalla you wimp. "

To: womens ordination wrote on Aug 24, 2007 9:14 PM:

" At one time Davine Law permitted the ownership of slaves. Apparently for political reasons that Davine Law was changes. Why not change Devinne Law to allow women equal rights. Where would one go to read Davine Law? What did women do to deserve to be left out of the game in God's eyes? Why should any women join a group that does not grant them full membership? Could God be a woman? "

To: Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 9:04 PM:

" You seem to have a problem with comprehension. If you have read or watched any news during the last year, you would have known that Bill Gates is giving the majority of his wealth to help those in under developed countries. I was not advocating giving him the money, but his foundation which is actually helping people. On the other hand the Catholic Church has never said they will give the majority of their wealth to the poor. Bill Gates never gave $1.5 billion to keep priest who were also molesters out of jail. In that regard I rest my case. You seem to have missed the whole scandal with the priest. Perhaps at your church they did not have skinny dipping, but they did seem to have some other activities that cost the church $1.5 billion. I would like to hear your dance on this one grumpy. First lets both take a strong drink. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 7:11 PM:

" To “To” I love it, the only thing you said new in all those words was to claim the Catholic Church is my church. You want to send money to a couple of the richest people in the world and I am the one without a plan. Why would you care if people believe as you say “middle ages nonsense”. In a more and more educated world people walk away from the illogical and anything not serving a purpose is doomed to failure. Long ago and far away I was first taken to a Nazarene church. My mother was offended when the minister ask all the ladies to come forward and cry for the men dying in Korea. We became Presbyterians. Eventually one of my volunteer Sunday school teachers began flipping us in the head with his finger when we were even slightly disruptive. Then for our next offence he pinched the shoulder muscle beside the neck effecting the nerve below. I rapidly lost interest in his class. I had even joined the Boy Scout troop that met in the basement. We went on a camping trip to the mountains. The next day the scoutmaster rallied the older scouts with “who wants to go skinny dipping”. The rest of us stayed behind while and irritated assistant scoutmaster had us improve the camping area and trails. The scoutmaster had taken his camera and taken lots of pictures of the naked boys diving from the rocks into the pool. Unfortunately for him one of his pictures of a naked boy got mixed in with his other pictures he was showing to the parents a few days later. When he accidentally slipped in a full frontal picture of a naked boy about to dive, he almost broke the projector taking it back out. Everyone initially laughed at him but the die was cast. I did not go back to any scout meetings. I never heard any controversy from my Catholic friends. All children’s groups need to have parents involved like they do here in North Dakota. "

To Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 5:48 PM:

" You should give dancing lessons. You don't deny that women are put in their place in your church, but dance around the answer. You dance around every issue. It does not seem within your realm to answer or address an issue directly. For every issue, you seem to just tell some irrelevant story. I don't understand what wrestling has to do with the Catholic Church forcing women into submission, nor do I get the reference to what they wear. I think you have invented a new dance called the spin. You can spin all you want, but you still end up in the same place believing a bunch of illogical nonsense invented in the middle ages. It is an insult to women. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 5:39 PM:

" You just made my day. We should send money to Bill Gates, and Warren Buffet. There is a rumor that they need the tax write off. I do not know about you but my portfolio is not to the point where I am going to give money to Bill Gates tax write-off scheme. You did not say what your plan was for preventing future starvation. Let me help out by suggesting population control and jobs. Abstinence is the only reliable way to prevent AIDS. If you think I spent money on the church in Richarton and you think you should send money to Bill Gates.. I must go open a cool one and propose a toast. First a little sip for Mother Teresa. Here is a news article that may be more current. http://www.dawn.com/2007/08/24/top11.htm I must have another sip and dwell on buying some carbon credits in case I take up smoking again. "

Women's ordination wrote on Aug 24, 2007 5:36 PM:

" As of today, August 24, this blog was posted two months ago. I wasn't holding my breath waiting, but I guessed that the topic of women's ordination in the Catholic Church would eventually come up on this blog. The late Pope John Paul II had an answer for both men and women who accused the Catholic Church of treating Catholic women unfairly and unjustly for not allowing women to be ordained in the Catholic Catholic. He said that Divine Law doesn't allow the Catholic Church to ordain women to the priesthood, therefore this isn't a matter of unfairness or injustice. If the Catholic Church had the authority to ordain women to the priesthood but refused them ordination, then we could speak about injustice. For information to one of the posters here, the Orthodox Church does not ordain women to the priesthood. Both, the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, have a 2000 year tradition of not ordaining women to priesthood. Women in the Catholic Church have many opportunities of serving in various positions and capacities that do not require ordination. Mother Theresa of Calcutta was never ordained and yet she has had a tremendous influence upon Catholics, other Christians, and many non-religious people. By the way, Mother Theresa was not in favor of women being ordained to the priesthood. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 4:38 PM:

" Response To To Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 3:57 PM: If you are not a Catholic woman who wants to become a Priest why do you care. Catholic women are working within the system for what they feel is important. You are looking for ways to throw mud. There was a Catholic family that lived down the block when I was young. The boy was one year older than me but I could wrestle him down and sit on his chest in the “schoolboy pin”. It was the ultimate fighting art back then and no-one got hurt. I felt sorry for him and his sisters who went to Catholic school. We had heard all the stories about how strict the sisters were. That turkey got a good education, and went to college, and has made over twice the money I have made. In other words I have seen other systems criticized and changed for no good reason. You should be sure your wishing for the right thing. When I was young the sisters walked down the streets wearing habits. They have changed bunches just like all of us. It is probably best not to remind them how much they have changed. Thirty or so years ago a friend went to a “guitar mass”. Can you believe that….. Elvis had effected the Catholic Church, if even for just a small moment in time. "

To Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 4:35 PM:

" Bill Gates, and Warren Buffet are two of the richest and smartest men in our country. They are working on bringing a better life to those in underdeveloped countries. My plan would be to work with them. Warren Buffet has given hundreds of millions to the Bill Gates foundation on the assumption it will be used wisely. I would far rather give the money to that foundation, than give it to some organization that thinks the solution to the problem is to build a huge building in Richardton. You seem to be arguing against trying to help the poor. You seem to say one is just wasting time and money by helping others. This seems very strange for a good Christian like you. Apparently you don't think there is any effective way to help people in India, so we should just waste the money here. I thought Mother Tersa was in India helping the poor. Perhaps she could have used some of the money you spent on the the Richarton Shrine, but I am sure God wanted the building, not the help for the people Mother Thersa was working with. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 4:12 PM:

" To: Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 2:42 PM: (Who wrote “rather than use the money to provide basic health care for people in Africa”) Let me advise you of something you probably will not believe. Africa and India have their own issues. Throwing money at them has not been real effective. People wanted Black Leaders to take over Africa and even more starve. Its like making a hero out of Mahatma Gandhi who led non violent protests in India against England during the Great Depression. England left and permitted them to continue worshiping rats and snakes and starvation. Rats eat grain, see spot jump, it is not difficult. Bathe in the river and the river gets polluted. So you want to throw money at people overseas rather than employ people building something here in the USA. In your case you are pretending to be a good person but are in fact vindictive. If you were having good thoughts the money needs to go to farming and irrigation methods not just dump food. Education about AIDS has not been received. Abstinence, fidelity and monogamy are words that have meaning only to some. If you want to throw money away you could at least give it to the ghettos and barrios in this nations biggest cities. Then it would employ the people in this country that make alcohol and street drugs. Please convince me you have a plan that will reduce starvation and disease in the future. People in African and India think you and I are stupid and are not likely to listen to us, but tell us your plan. "

To Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 3:57 PM:

" The Catholic Church does not allow women to be priest. Why? If women are equal they should be able to become priest. Not allowing women to become priest lays the ground work for mistreating women. There are many fine Catholic Women I admire, but I do not admire anyone who would submit to a God that put them below men. A woman was good enough to bring Jesus onto the planet according to the church, but she is not qualified to do whatever priest do. The dominance of men over women is very much an idea of Christianity, and just one more thing that leads to a lot of suffering and pain. A woman joining such a church that denies them full rights would be equal to a black person joining the Klan. Why would a sane person join an organization that labels them unworthy? "

Ezra wrote on Aug 24, 2007 3:43 PM:

" Contrary to what you think, I believe all church buildings are a tremendous waste. South America is littered with churches built at the expense of the poor. While people live in abject poverty within sight of these building, they were still built. The very people who built the churches could have used the money to build these people homes and medical care facilities. Like I have said before, what kind of God would ask people to build churches and neglect his fellow man. Simple math would tell anyone that any dollar that goes into a church is one dollar that cannot go into a home, a hospital or a school. Churches are built so local people can feel good about spending their money. If the money instead was spent to help the poor in another country, the local person would not have the bragging rights. I object to every penny any religion spends to do anything but true good works. True good works is actually improving the physical life of real people, it is not building the physical plant to bilk the poor. I do not see anything hard to understand about this concept. The Cathedral in Richardton is just a splendid local example of man gone wrong trying to do what is right. God has no use for such waste. If God is so petty he needs such an edifice, he has a big problem. Incidentally I love my Catholic son in law, he is a wonderful person and has made my daughter very happy. He has seen through the nonsense, but doesn't want to break his parents bubble, which I understand. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 3:29 PM:

" ResponseTo: To: Grumpy wrote on Aug 24, 2007 3:07 PM: You say: “I have never had a Muslim come to my door selling his nonsense”. No the radical Muslims will just kill you if you do not become Islamic in their areas of control. You seem to think the Catholic Church is treating women worse than Islam treats women? Surely you jest. Radical Islamic countries still stone women and still do not permit them an education. Please tell me you are joking? Some of the best-educated women in this country are Catholic. Many are lawyers. Many own large businesses. "

To: To Grumpy Art (also known as Ezra) wrote on Aug 24, 2007 3:08 PM:

" Repeatedly, you have posted here your disgust with the "cathedral at Richardton" which you keep saying is sitting there empty, and is a waste of money. The Catholic church building in Richardton serves as a parish church for the local parishioners and as a chapel for the monks who live there at the monastery. For some reason, you single out the church building in Richardton, but you don't seem to have a problem with major renovation projects that have been done on Catholic churches in Dickinson, Bismarck and Mandan in recent years. Is your Catholic son-in-law, whom you hate, from Richardton? "

To: Grumpy wrote on Aug 24, 2007 3:07 PM:

" I agree you can believe whatever you want. However, when your beliefs start to cause wars, oppression of women, and the myriad of other problems brought to us by religion, I think it would be best if you do not spread your beliefs. If people with beliefs would label them as such and admit that they may or may not be true we would be far better off. Most of the problems with religion stem from the fact that it is sold to young children as true. The net result is the children grow up believing in unproven fantasy. These are the children that wage religious wars and fly planes into world trade centers. If religious figures were honest and told people that what they were preaching has no real basis in reality or fact, it would be a good first step. If people could learn to distinguish between beliefs, and facts the world would no be plagued with the mess religion has caused. What has created the mess is the fact that each religion is sure it is the right one, and therefore it is obligated to purge the world of the wrong ones. Don't tell me Christians don't do this. I have never had a Muslim come to my door selling his nonsense. On the other hand Christians are always going all over the world polluting other cultures with their version of the "Truth". Believe what you want, just don't try to spread it to the innocent. "

To: Stepper wrote on Aug 24, 2007 3:00 PM:

" The earliest written account of good and evil can be found in the Book of Genesis with the story of Adam and Eve. Eve didn't eat an apple (that isn't in the Bible) but she "ate" fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The tempter told Eve that she and Adam would be like gods if they ate from this tree of knowledge. After they "ate" the fruit, both Adam and Eve became aware that they had done wrong, that they had disobeyed God. Another story in the Bible is about Lucifer (an angel of light) and his followers rebelling against God. The archangel Michael and his followers fought and defeated Lucifer and his followers. This is the beginning of evil. The tempter in the Adam and Eve story represents the evil that came about through the battle that took place between Michael and Lucifer. The "eating" of the fruit by Adam and Eve brought about the first sin, which was the misuse of the gift of free will that God had given to Adam and Eve. Some refers to this "eating" of the fruit as original sin. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 2:50 PM:

" To Stepper. My mother did not believe in spanking children. That does not mean she would not threaten one of us who was doing something that might cause us to be in danger. She was furious at Dr Spocks “don’t spank them because all you are proving is that you are bigger than them. Her response was “that is all I want to teach them, don’t run out in the street because I am bigger than you and I might hit you”. I believe it is called “keep it simple”. Long ago a documentary on a tribe living in the Amazon Jungle claimed they only had one law. They hunted with blowguns. That law was “never leave a poison dart laying on a trail”. Apparently for them that was the beginning of learning right from wrong. But I bet long before that they learned not to waste food or not to drop a rock on sister’s toe. Living together requires rules. "

To: Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 2:42 PM:

" You seem to be dancing around the issue as best you can. You want me to believe that God would much rather that you take what surplus money you have and build some giant building which serves no purpose, rather than use the money to provide basic health care for people in Africa that could save their life. In many countries simply having clean water would change life dramatically for the better, but according to you God would rather you build some silly edifice. You can spin and dance all you want, but this makes no sense. You claim my logic is flawed, yours seems in need of a serious tune up. A Cathedral seems to say "Look what I did God". If God truely speaks to people he would surely say " You got it all wrong." "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 2:33 PM:

" To: To Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 1:50 PM: (who wrote " To call the Bible History is a misnomer”) You may want to know what happened to the “Forests of Lebanon”. You may want to know about “slavery in Babylon” (thirty miles from Baghdad). You may want to read something that will give you an indication of how far we have progressed. The people who criticize our court system, prison system or political system usually have not read how bad things were long ago. You may believe as I do, that what we now think of as caused by “Mother Nature” was once blamed as acts of a vengeful God. I am a New Testament Christian and am very interested in the Old Testament for its history of the human situation. A case could be made that the Old Testament required animal sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin and Jesus canceled that out by personally dying for our sins. An animal activist might think Jesus was the first person to stand up for animals. Another person might say that Jesus turned over the tables of the moneychangers (from roman money to Jewish money for the festival) and they put a bounty out on him, end of story. I am aware that the Romans only were concerned about taxes. When the Romans conquered an area they left the people in control of a city as still in control except the Romans were the police and the courts. Or, tell us who violated your laws and we will enforce your laws, just keep paying taxes and do not rock the boat. I believe the message of Jesus was more than just the right message. I believe Jesus was more than just the right person at just the right time. That is one of the great things about this freedom thing that our soldiers and policemen and lawyers fight for. I can believe what I want and you can believe what you want. "

Honest Omar wrote on Aug 24, 2007 2:25 PM:

" Stepper, you ask good questions. I suggest you read Dr. Michael Shermer's "The Science of Good and Evil". He makes a very credible case for the origins of morality, which is really what your questions are about. "

Honest Omar wrote on Aug 24, 2007 2:03 PM:

" Would like to echo earlier post. We also raised a son without the sop of mindless faith. He is now a caring, productive, thoughtful, non-believing adult. Must come as a surprise to believers that such is possible. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 1:55 PM:

" To: To: Grumpy Art. Go look at Al Gore's giant house. Would you prefer that he live in a small house and give his money to the poor. We have tax supported social programs and church supported programs for poor people. Why is it you focus on a particular building that was not built with tax money. This country is not purely capitalistic. We have many social programs like social security and various safety nets for poor. North Dakota does not lead the nation in giving away money. Go look at California or New York’s housing projects for poor minorities. The police are afraid to go in many of them. The people who live in them are often afraid for their lives and will not be a witness to a crime and will not testify against each other in court. Giving away money can backfire if the recipients are just “given what they claim to want”. "

To Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 1:50 PM:

" To call the Bible History is a misnomer. History in most cases has some means whereby it can be verified. In other words it actually happened. Usually this means there is some hard evidence. For all the time the Jews supposedly spent in the desert according to the Bible they apparently left nothing. There is no archaeological record. The flood involving the arch is another case. When one does research involving the Bible what is usually found is a twist on something that may have been historical. Today we have what are called urban legends. They are stories made up by someone, and believed by a lot of people, however they have no basis in fact or reality. Most things that actually happened leave some sort of record that can be traced. The Bible is no more History than the Wizard of Oz, and it should not be portrayed as such. The Bible is a compilation of stories told by men and often mistranslated, nothing more. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 1:39 PM:

" To: To: Grumpy Art. A true sadist enjoys war because he can then torture and kill. He has no religion except his desire for sadism. It is most unfortunate that wars often allow sadistic peoples to promote up through the ranks. Like Stalin, Saddam and the present ruler of Iran are examples of people who needed war and strife to attain their position and desires. Look at our serial killers in this country and you will find very few if any that were good Christians. You should be more specific on which religion you are blaming. If you are talking about the Middle Ages I might remind you about all the changes that occurred then, that brought us to where we are now. I too am uncomfortable with some preachers who seem to dwell on some parts of the Old Testament that I consider to be "just history". There is a very good story called the Book of Esther that tells how bad it was in ancient Persia (Iran). It is good that we have this history preserved. The king was way to egotistical and violent. He had all the good looking women rounded up so he could spend the night with each and then pick the next queen. A Eunuch made up a story that got him promoted and his enemies killed (my opinion is that he made it up). It is the first documented case of people confessing under torture. History is good to know and you might want your children to know some of what is in the oldest of books of that area. Depending on the age of your children. "

Stepper wrote on Aug 24, 2007 1:38 PM:

" With all of the comments on here, there are some pretty intelligent people talking here so maybe some of you would answer this: Whether you believe in God, a religion, Bible or are agnostic, atheist, neurtal or whatever, way back in the beginning of life (however you believe it came about, big bang or creation) how did man learn what was right and what was wrong in his actions? How did the very first ever humans know that there was even a right or wrong? Where did that come from? "

To: Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 12:53 PM:

" Why build churches to recycle money? If you built houses for poor people, and hospitals for those in need, would it not accomplish the same thing,and make God much happier, than some ostentatious Cathedral? When you have a church all you have is an empty useless building. It is an insult to God, when you could have built a recreation center, or some other useful building. Is the ego of God so small that he needs you to flatter him with buildings? What a petty God that would be. Do you think a God that built the universe would be impressed with your Catherdral in Richarton? "

To: Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 12:47 PM:

" A world without religion would be fine. I raised my children without that nonsense and they are wonderful adults. If we used all the money wasted on churches to actually help people we would be far better off. If people spent the same amount of time reading intelligent literature rather than Biblical nonsense we would have a more educated population. If people helped each other on Sunday rather than sit, pray, and sing, the poor in every town would benefit. Without religion we would not have the senseless killing of people in the name of religion. We would not have people bilked by the likes of Pat Robertson, and Jerry Falwell. Indeed without religion the world would be a far better place. You do not need religion to do the right thing, or honor people. It is a sad state of affairs that people have to believe in some fantasy in order to do the right thing. You cannot count the number of people burned, killed, and tortured because of religion. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 12:20 PM:

" Response to: To Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 8:27 AM: Russia had no legal religion for a very long time. I suggest you read the history of Russia if you think tyrants need religion in order to oppress people and make war. If you think the Irish are oppressed because of their religion I suggest you read the history of England. First there was only Celtics (Scotch, Irish and Celtic speakers) on the British Isles. The Celtics were also in places on the coast of Europe. Celtic had their war religion. The British Isles were invaded by Romans, Vikings, Anglo Saxons, and eventually Normans. Like all of Europe the war religions were first. Look at your days of the week. Sunday (Sun), Monday (Moon), Tuesday (after the Teutonic word for mars), Wednesday (Woden’s day) Thursday (Thor’s day) Friday (for Frig or Freya) Saturday (Saturn). Do you really want to return to worshiping the war gods? Do you want a country with no religion? When we get married we could just "jump the broom" or something? When someone dies we could let the vultures recycle? What is your opinion of a world without religion, or at least without an awareness of a higher power, and not striving for a higher morality. "

Honest Omar wrote on Aug 24, 2007 12:01 PM:

" And that inverted bowl we call the sky under which, cooped, we live and die; Lift up your hands not to it, for it rolls on impotently as thou, or I. Omar Khayam "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 11:52 AM:

" If we were talking about the pyramids of Egypt that were built with slave labor you would have a case. If we are talking about buildings in this country you do not. When people are paid to build a building those builders then put food on their tables for their families. Each builder spends monies at the proverbial butcher, baker, and candlestick maker. They then take money home for their family expenses and the cycle continues. Each time the monies change hands the taxes are paid and some of those taxes support programs for the poor. If you were talking about something built with tax money like the new Oakland Bay Bridge it is another subject. "

To Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 9:29 AM:

" Your logic seems flawed. You need a building, so rather than build something small and modest, you build an coprophagous edifice. Everyone else in the state manages to get by with a small country church. I suppose God is unhappy with them or they are lacking in logic. People are starving and have many real needs, so you take your money and build a multi million dollar church. What God would call this logical. "

To Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 8:27 AM:

" You are concerned about nuclear war. The biggest threat we now face is Iran. Iran is a country run by religious fanatics. Religion is the problem. Iran wants to kill everyone who is not Muslim. The Christians are no different, at various time in history they had the same agenda. In recent times all the strife in Northern Ireland was due to religion. Religion is a man made system whereby one group of people exploit another group of people. We don't need it. Humans are capable of facing reality and being compassionate without inventing a mythology. Every society has tried the mythology route. It never stopped the killing, and usually caused it. "

Grumpy Art wrote on Aug 24, 2007 1:08 AM:

" Ezra. Over and over there are flaws in your logic. If a farmer has good years and spends wisely he may have extra money he wants to put to lasting good use. A meeting house built strong, where people can commune at some level with their creator is a good thing. A place to have marriages in the eyes of god, to have funerals requesting gods blessings. If you feel we are here by accident then you may have made the same mistake as you made with the flies and mosquitoes. Flies lay eggs on dead things and the maggots eat the dead flesh before most disease have time to multiply. Mosquitoes pollinate small flowers. They prefer a blood meal and can lay more eggs with a blood meal but the sugar given willingly by the flowers to those who would carry pollen for them works fine. The larvae of the mosquito actually cleans up ponds and makes them fit to drink. They have a wing filter that they wave which rapidly removes germs and such from the water. We and every animal carries disease but usually that is not a bad thing. Our immune system fights off 99.9 percent of all germs as long as we have adequate food and warmth. Germs like tigers and wolves are nature's population control. When animals overpopulate it is very bad for whatever they are eating. We and other animals were given freedom within limits. Until the invention of antibiotics and nuclear weapons we were not free to overpopulate and perhaps destroy the earth. Since the 1940s we were given a burden that we might not be smart enough or serious enough to carry. What are you willing to risk in order to keep nuclear weapons out of the hands of crazy fanatical dictators. "

Matt wrote on Aug 23, 2007 9:26 PM:

" Here is some more of what some of you call fantacy, hocus pocus, mumbo jumbo and religious brainwashing stuff. God has given us to choose which we will. Before man is life and death. That which he chooses shall be given him. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 23, 2007 8:50 PM:

" Mark Twain did not have much use for flies. He wrote a book called letters from the Earth. The book was very anti-religious. In the book he tells the story of the Ark. According to Mark Twain, Noah was out at sea for some time when he realized he forgot the flies. Noah had to return to pick up the flies. Mark Twain also speculated that all the animals had to be full of disease in order to get disease back into to circulation after the flood. My question is why a loving God would have Noah put flies, mosquitoes, and all the dreaded diseases on the arch? Indeed if God loved us he could have left just the mosquitoes off and prevent untold human suffering. I wish a good, well read fundy would explain to me why God had Noah bring all this misery with him. Lets keep in mind that the earth was flooded to eliminate evil. Why did he make it a point to bring all the evil on the arch? "

Nostik wrote on Aug 23, 2007 7:19 PM:

" Just because the Ark was only about one and one-half football fields does not mean all the animals would not fit. Animals were really small during the Dinosaur era. All God had to do was kill off all the Dinosaurs and the very small animals would fit just fine. Oops, I am trying to combine science and religion and that is a no-no. "

Nostik wrote on Aug 23, 2007 2:44 PM:

" The ark was a rowboat compared to the titanic. A cubit is the distance from the tip of middle finger to the elbow or about 1.5 feet today. Genesis 6-15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. "

To JC wrote on Aug 23, 2007 1:27 PM:

" If you go to Youtube and type in Penn and Teller The Bible is Bullsh.... you will find an explanation for the Ark story in the Bible. It is interesting, and I would like to hear your spin on it. The truth turns out to be that the story originated from a flood on the Euphrates River. Please refute what Penn and Teller say, and tell me why I should believe you and not them. "

To Ezra wrote on Aug 23, 2007 1:13 PM:

" When I read the Catholic Church has paid out close to $1.5 billion for priest involved in sex scandals, I quit the church. I asked myself a simple question, "Where did they get the money?". When I asked a priest the same question he said property was sold, and they dug into the treasury. I asked him why didn't they sell the property and dig into the treasury to help those in need. He replied " The Lord works in mysterious ways". I replied, "Not with my money, I quit". "

JC wrote on Aug 23, 2007 11:06 AM:

" To Ezra: I don't believe God was the architect for the Abby, God did however order the specifications for an Arc many years ago, after that God left architecture up to humans. If memory serves the Arc fared way better than the Titanic, another man made structure or mistake. One man was qouted as saying "It ts unsinkable, God himself couldn't sink this ship." Wrong! Human beings design these structures and yes they do go overboard, but you'll have to forgive them, they are human. As for it sitting empty in the middle of nowhere, that is a shame. "

To: Matt wrote on Aug 23, 2007 10:06 AM:

" Lucifer needs no gender. "It" does not exist. "

Mark Lilla wrote on Aug 23, 2007 8:37 AM:

" For more than two centuries, from the American and French Revolutions to the collapse of Soviet Communism, world politics revolved around eminently political problems. War and revolution, class and social justice, race and national identity — these were the questions that divided us. Today, we have progressed to the point where our problems again resemble those of the 16th century, as we find ourselves entangled in conflicts over competing revelations, dogmatic purity and divine duty. We in the West are disturbed and confused. Though we have our own fundamentalists, we find it incomprehensible that theological ideas still stir up messianic passions, leaving societies in ruin. We had assumed this was no longer possible, that human beings had learned to separate religious questions from political ones, that fanaticism was dead. We were wrong. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 23, 2007 7:57 AM:

" In today's paper there is an article about The Assumption Abbey in Richardton. I walked into the Abby recently with a friend. His first remark was "I wonder how many farmers went broke building this?". The Abby is an amazing waste of money. How anyone could believe that God would rather have this expensive building sitting empty in the middle of nowhere, than feed millions of poor is beyond comprehension. What kind of God puts buildings above people? What kind of God has such an ego problem that he needs edifices built. This is similiar to the Cathedrals built in the middle ages. People were driven into poverty building them and for what? There is absolutely no way to justify this waste in the eyes of God. "

To: MamaMia wrote on Aug 22, 2007 10:22 PM:

" First of all, this blog will be two months old on August 24, 2007, and isn't three months old. Secondly, you aren't under any obligation to visit this blog if you find the topic too boring. Thirdly, an open and honest discussion of religious beliefs should be an on-going experience, and not limited to a couple weeks of listing posts on the topic and then jumping onto a different topic. Fourthly, why are you uncomfortable at seeing a discussion among Christians and non-Christians, among believers in God and non-believers in God? "

To: Nostik wrote on Aug 22, 2007 10:15 PM:

" In the teachings of Jesus, He doesn't say that His followers should visit only those who are unjustly imprisoned, or to feed only the good people who have no food. Christians are to give food to the hungry people because they are human, and because they are hungry. His followers are to visit the imprisoned, those who have been imprisoned unjustly and those who have been imprisoned for just reasons. The predators and hardened criminals especially are in need of God's forgiveness and mercy. Jesus Christ gave us life for every sinner, the greatest of sinners and those who haven't committed many sins. Maybe you don't think that predators and hardened criminals deserve to be forgiven and be given an opportunity to spend eternity in heaven. My understanding of the Bible is that God is the ultimate Judge as to who goes to heaven, and who doesn't get into heaven. "

Matt wrote on Aug 22, 2007 10:14 PM:

" I figured sooner or later the question of what gender God is would come up. The question that begs for an answer is what gender is Lucifer? "

To Nostik wrote on Aug 22, 2007 9:30 PM:

" If God were a black woman, it is pretty obvious the marketing department would have had some serious problems. Nothing more clearly shows the whole thing is man made than the marketing ploy of having Jesus conveniently portrayed in all the adds as a nice blue eyed blond. "

Nostik wrote on Aug 22, 2007 8:51 PM:

" To: To: Nostik I hope you were referring to the unjustly imprisoned as so many were back in Biblical days. I hope you were not referring to the predators and career criminals that fill this countries prisons today. "

To:MomaMia wrote on Aug 22, 2007 8:45 PM:

" I have noticed on these blogs about religion, that when the fundies fail to present their case they always ask that the discussion be stopped. "

MamaMia wrote on Aug 22, 2007 6:47 PM:

" Good God! (pun intended) This flippin' comment board is three months old. People, people, people, can we move on with our lives? "

To: Nostik wrote on Aug 22, 2007 6:13 PM:

" God doesn't have skin color, that is why the Bible doesn't mention the color of His skin. The late Pope John Paul II supposedly said one day in a joking manner that Jesus was Polish. The movie actor, James C., who played the role of Jesus in "The Passion" thinks Jesus was Italian. All that speculating can be fun, but we know for sure that Jesus wasn't a blue-eyed, blonde Norwegian or German. To be made in the image of God doesn't refer to skin color or ethnic background. To be made in the image of God refers to a human person receiving his/her human dignity from God, the human person is a reflection of the Creator just as a piece of art or sculpture is a reflection of the artist or sculpturor who did the creating. To be made in the image of God means that the human person was made not only by God, but was made for Godly purposes, and was made to spend eternity with God. Christians express this idea when they say that we are to see Christ in one another. This isn't just an overly pious thought or idea. Jesus said that when we feed the hungry, we are feeding Him. When we visit the sick, the suffering and the imprisoned, we are visiting Him. Again, the image of God goes way beyond the color of skin. "

Nostik wrote on Aug 22, 2007 2:32 PM:

" A Black radio commentator once claimed that God is a Black Woman. Everyone has his or her own opinion it seems. The bible does not say which race was made in “God’s Image”. "

To: Just a Thought wrote on Aug 22, 2007 10:16 AM:

" When my kids were little they used to invent little clubs. These clubs had rules, membership, and all the other trappings of religion. Like religion they discriminated, and kept people out. My kids out grew it, sad that many adults cannot. "

To: Just a Thought wrote on Aug 22, 2007 9:13 AM:

" According to the Bible God made man in his own image. However, it is very apparent man made God in his own image. According to current religious practice God wants people to praise him constantly, build big buildings in his honor, and go to war to defend his ideas. The God I see most people worshiping very much resembles them. Most interesting of all is that somehow their God always embraces their own ideas. Perhaps the most amazing thing is that God's ideas always line up with the person who has invented him. A Lutheran will always invent a Lutheran God etc. Another remarkable thing is that God is always on our side. No matter what religion you are, God always sides with you. How convenient. Most amazing of all is Gods ability to adapt to your changing beliefs. God once did not allow blacks full participation in the Morman Church, nor did he allow women equal rights. Low and behold now that your beliefs have changed, God did to "

Just a Thought wrote on Aug 21, 2007 11:23 PM:

" It has always puzzled me as to why believers insist on the "god" explanation for the big bang, evolution, etc. And "god" is always a "he!" It must be the human propensity to anthropomorphize the unknowable. How about some new thinking! Forget about this "god." Maybe the universe is its own god: self-creating, self-perpetuating...so far all this is proven by science. So how about a new anthropomorphic name for this? I propose: "Mother Universe." But, beware! This "Mother Universe" is a real mother in the most perjorative sense. You think you live in a benign world, and your own personal being is protected by this god or another god, because of some ephemeral belief or hope you cling to, especially to your "afterlife?" "She" has a myriad ways to kill you at a moment's notice: constantly evolving bacteria and viruses, cancer, cataclysmic storms, tectonic plate movements, collisions from celestial bodies...ad infinitum. "Mother Universe" is one tough mother. You cannot refute these statements with any kind of proof. All you have is your baseless faith and hope in something better. Do you REALLY believe in heaven? Do you never have doubts or qualms about whether there is a heaven? Give proof that heaven exits. Real proof. Not biblical attributions. And, "Good Luck" to all you believers in this effort. I cannot wait. "

Matt wrote on Aug 21, 2007 11:22 PM:

" A lot of church doctrine I think, comes from the writings of the saints. It fit in with the leanings of the church at the time. It came accross very scholarly and was found to be very useful, whether it was right or not, and passages from scripture were conveniently interperted to validate it. False doctrine proclaimed as truth is very hard to unteach. The basic teachings of Jesus Christ should be the text used for shepherding the fold and not hand crafted variations of it. I don't believe salvation rests on whether or not the Mass is in Latin. Salvation is about the business of saving your soul and language is irrelevent. "

To: Nostik wrote on Aug 21, 2007 6:22 PM:

" If you were God, why would you want to hang around Baptist Churches where the people don't have any problem singing, praying and claping their hands in praise? Wouldn't you want to hang around Catholic Churches where the hard working, serious Catholics need help in getting freed up, fired up, and filled up with the Holy Spirit? "

Ezra wrote on Aug 21, 2007 5:57 PM:

" Thank you for the good conversation, and may God bless you. The God I am asking to bless you is not a petty God concerned with baptisms, and silly prayers. The God I am asking to bless you is not an egotistical God that wants Cathedrals, and Stained Glass. The Universe is truly a mysterious place. If there is a God, the God is far above the petty things Earthly religion deals with. I don't know who made this planet and all that goes with it, but I hope it is someone who wants us to evolve intellectually beyond the primitive religion we are now cursed with. "

to ezra wrote on Aug 21, 2007 4:01 PM:

" Once again you assume you know how I believe and have proven you know nothing. Not once have I said my religion is superior or better. You simply think you know what I believe becuase I am a Catholic Christian disagreeing with you? It's fine though, twist words all you want, the point in the end is that you can't disprove there is a god and you can't prove your scientific theories. All you have is your hatered for religion becuase of some terrible thing that happened to you in your past and your misinformed views of religion. A lot of that is becuase bad Christians, who were and are sinners, throughout history have manged to throw enough mud on our beliefs that you have become jaded. It is important to remember though, we are all sinners in need of forgiveness. Being that it is time for this post to die and we are obviously not getting anywhere with this, I will just say I will remember you in prayer. May god bless you Ezra. "

Nostik wrote on Aug 21, 2007 3:25 PM:

" Southern Baptists do not have a problem of falling asleep in church. They clap their hands and sing. If I was God I would spend more time in their churches and feel sorry for overly serious, overly hard working Catholics. "

To: bob wrote on Aug 21, 2007 2:44 PM:

" On Judgment Day you won't be asked whether you fulfilled your Sunday obligation to attend Mass by being present physically only, you will be asked whether you were present at Mass physically, spiritually, and as a full participant. Sit next to someone in the pew who will nudge you when you drift off into a sleep during Mass. "

Nostik wrote on Aug 21, 2007 2:37 PM:

" What upsets me is when priest make some big scientific discovery. That Priest Gregor Mendel, who is known as the "father of modern genetics", is particularly irritating. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendel I was told that these people had a “job description” that involved strictly religion. How dare him try to join the ranks of the Einsteins and Newtons. "

bob wrote on Aug 21, 2007 2:30 PM:

" It doesn't matter to me...I will sleep through it just the same as the old mass. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 21, 2007 2:20 PM:

" By your standard it is evident you hate, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhist, and any other religion that is not yours. First you do not believe them. Second you don't think they are truthful, or as good as yours. When you do this to others, you do not consider it hate, but when someone uses the same standard to judge your belief system, you label it as hate. You use the word respect, again you use a double standard. You do not have the respect for all the other religions to say they are true and correct, however you expect them to grant you that privilege. You use a double standard that is most unfair. Please explain if other religions are wrong. If you say they are, then by your definition that is hate and disrespect. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 21, 2007 2:14 PM:

" It seems very strange that if the Bible is the inspired word of God, and it tells how to deal with slaves, that would seem to mean God approved of slavery. In fact slave owners in the South used this as part of their justification. Everyone seems to want to divorce them self from the Old Testament. If Jesus were against slavery, it would certainly have made sense for him to publicly speak out against it. If God were indeed a loving God, he could have added a commandment, "Thous shalt not own slaves". Think of the suffering this would have stopped. Like so many you love to dwell on the warm fuzzy parts of the Bible, and forget about all the recommended killing, and stoning. The fantasy is a lot fun, but someone has to be accountable for the suffering it has also caused. Own up to the truth. As point out before, facts do not constitute hate. Please tell me about an erroneous fact I have put forth. If you tell someone they have a problem, that is honest love, not hate. If it is not, please explain. When a person is dullusional they have a problem. "

to Ezra wrote on Aug 21, 2007 12:33 PM:

" No, I never infered that Stalin did it so it was ok for anyone, now you are just putting words in my mouth. Amazing your hate runs so deep that you will resort to the twisting of words to make your point. For Slavery, Biblically it was approved of in the old testament as there are rules set up for the proper treatment of slaves. Did God approve of it? I'm not sure as I don't know that it ever states God's opinion of it. Jesus however said to love everyone and so I think we can safely assume he was against the practice. Jesus came to change the thought of the day. He spoke against the man made traditions of the Jews and urged them to get back to the basics of love. However, God still granted all people free will, no matter what God likes or dislikes, people can do what they wish. But, I am sad to say none of this will get through to you. It's a shame that hatred and disrespect go so deep that you can't look at it objectivly like you ask me to look at your views. "

JC wrote on Aug 21, 2007 11:59 AM:

" I'm sorry if I lead anyone to believe that I have an issue with our Catholic Leadership here in ND. The issues I have are with some of the hardline (everything is BLACK or WHITE) old timers (not Clergy), who refuse to move ahead with the church. I believe the true meaning of Catholic is: FOR THE GOOD OF ALL! We as Catholics, as parents and teachers need to instill in our children a respect for others, not prejudiced by what religion or faith a person associates themselves with.To think that reverting back to pre-Vatican II (Latin) is in any way going to strengthen the church is as much "slight of hand" as telling children that "ABRA-CADABRA" is the term that makes the MAGIC happen! "

Ezra wrote on Aug 21, 2007 11:10 AM:

" I cannot help but be amazed that you don't read what you write. By implication you say Stalin did it, so it wasn't so bad for religion to do it. Now, on the slavery issue, you say, again everyone did it, so it was an accepted practice, and it really wasn't slavery. You might note that the Bible mentions poking a hole in a slaves ear. This does not sound like how you would treat a family member. Your ability to dismiss and rationalize the absurdities of the Bible is astounding. A simple question. Did God, or didn't he approve of slavery? Or did he change his mind? "

To: JC wrote on Aug 21, 2007 10:56 AM:

" What is even more shocking is to see the large numbers of young people around the country, including young seminarians and young priests, who never lived through the Latin Mass years, wanting to see the Latin Mass restored. I don't see that as evidence of being emotionally or psychologically attached to things of the past. They are not old to have experienced Catholic life before Vatican II so they are not able to be emotionally or psychologically attached to the pre-Vatican II Church. My thinking is that many young Catholics are spiritually insecure in their faith so they want to resort back in history to a time when the teachings and practices in the church were black and white. Supposedly, faith in God was very strong at that time. In reality, simply doing or not doing what the church taught didn't require all that much faith. The church demanded obedience more than it rquired faith. The post-Vatican II demands and requires that Catholics learn to think and to work on their relationship with the Lord and their relationship with the universal community. I can understand that the older generation of Catholics might be emotionally or psychologically attached to the pre-Vatican II Church when the Mass was only in Latin, and there were no other options. My guess is that your comments in your post are intended to challenge the Church leadership in North Dakota to do more to help Catholics work through their insecurities with more and better education, and with a clearer vision for the church. "

to Ezra wrote on Aug 21, 2007 10:38 AM:

" I don't believe I ever actually said becuase Stalin did bad things then it was ok for religion to. There you go again going off without reading what is being written. As for the bible teaching how to deal with slaves, lets be honest here. 2000 years ago and even 1000 years ago slaves were a part of every day life. it was not considered immoral and in most cases slaves were treated as part of the family. Not the slavery of the US where they were treated as animals mind you. You see, once again you have shown that your hatred for things you dont understand prevent you from looking objectively at it. You say people who look at religion live in fear, I say you are the one who lives in fear. Fear of being able to let your life go and live for something you dont totally understand. A tool for the rich to dominate the poor? Hardly. I know very few priests, pastors, monks, reverends, etc who are wealthy people. If they are wealthy people then they are not living as Christ has commanded them to live becuase they should be the example of giving up everything and following him. Again, some don't live this example and that is wrong and too bad becuase it confuses poor souls such as yourself. "

Another definition of religion wrote on Aug 21, 2007 10:17 AM:

" My preference of a definition of religion comes from the Book of Micah, a prophet of the Old Testament (6:8): "You have been told, O man, what is good, and what the Lord requires of you: Only to do right and to love goodness, and to walk humbly with your God." "

JC wrote on Aug 21, 2007 8:43 AM:

" I've read many of the comments posted here, and have yet to see one that pertains to the subject. I moved to a small town in ND 2 1/2 years ago and was culturally shocked by the amount of people who would like to see Vatican II rescinded. I can't possibly see how it would unite people as much as it would confuse young people. I was exposed to the Latin mass as a youth, and I would much rather know what is being said. May the Peace of Christ be with all of YOU! "

Definition of Religion wrote on Aug 21, 2007 8:17 AM:

" definition of religion : "The theatrical linking of a cause with an effect that has no basis in physical reality, but that ' in our hearts ' ought to." "

Ezra wrote on Aug 21, 2007 8:03 AM:

" It is absurd to say that because Stalin did bad things it was OK for religion to do bad things. Among the terrible things religion has done is impose itself on other culture, and destroy them in the process. American Indians were forced to leave their homes and go to Indian schools. At these school the Christians did not allow them to speak their native language. In South America the number of tribe who had their culture destroyed by missionaries is numerous. The number of people who have been bilked by TV evangelist, and churches selling indulgences is a number that must be counted back for centuries. Add to this the sexual abuse, and the people lives that have been ruined by being confined to convents and other brainwashing institutions, and you just begin to touch the tip of the iceberg of evil created by religion. The basic concept that "I have the right God, and you have the wrong God", is bound to cause strife. You also need to remember that religion endorsed slavery for centuries and the bible even gives advice on how to treat slaves. Any person with an open an fair mind would see that religion has caused way more suffering than it has cured. The bottom line however is that it is nothing but a system of one class used to dominate the lower classed. It is a tool of man and most often a tool of evil men. "

to Ezra wrote on Aug 21, 2007 7:23 AM:

" Wouldn't it be nice if humans didn't have to be promised heaven to behave. Unfortunatly, it just doesn't work that way. In fact even with the promise of heaven, many still wont behave. Now you talk about the religious wars of history and I agree those were terrible things, not exactly what Jesus wanted. What about wars of today? Again I ask how you explain the Chinease slaughtering their own people? How about the khmer rouge slaughtering the educated? Stalin and Lenin in the soviet union? All non religious yet highly dangerous killers. If religion is the root of all evil as you say, what is wrong with those three examples and many others I did not mention? In fact there are many studies that show how good religion is for people. Check on the web sometime, it can be scientifically shown that people who beleive in a religion are happier, have more confidence, are more relaxed, are less likely to committ suicide, and many other things. Again Ezra, everyone is human which means every one of us is a sinner in need of forgiveness. Dont let the wacked out televangelists pollute your view of the truth of Christ. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 20, 2007 8:46 PM:

" I am not singling out the Catholic Church. If you look at history, you see the strife in Northern Ireland between Catholics, and Protestants. If you look at the Middle East, you see the Jews fighting the Muslims. No matter where you look on the planet, you see religion as the basis of strife. Up until the 70's the Morman Church discriminated against blacks. Women have always been discriminated by every religion. My point is religion is a harmful relic of the past. I don't think if you counted up the bodies from religious wars you would still argue it has been a good thing. This does not include the torture, and many of the other crimes committed by religion. Religious sects have been responsible for over population of many parts of the world. The caste system is a dreadful example of religion in action. We have reached a time that we should leave the thought process of the middle ages and embrace a new age where we can live without this curse. Why do we have to have morality imposed by fear? In order to behave do humans really have to be promised heaven and threatened with hell? I think we have out grown this, and it is time to admit it and move on. "

to ezra wrote on Aug 20, 2007 8:14 PM:

" I think if you will do your research, the church has helped many more people than the bad people in the church have harmed. You say the church should be able to rise above and I agree, but we are still human. Remember, even Jesus picked Judas as a follower of his and Judas betrayed him. If anything, the problems in the church are a testament to how evil men can be and to how far Satan will go to tear man down. Yes all Christians should be able to rise above, the Catholic church should be able to rise above, but to acuse the whole of corruption when in reality it is only a few, that is wrong. You might as well be the nazi's accusing the jewish people of ruining their lives or the southerners who hated the catholic church becuase they hated and spoke agains slavery. "

To: Tommy wrote on Aug 20, 2007 6:24 PM:

" You were saying that you never hear of any conflicts within the Lutheran Church. If you follow the news reports on the recent national convention of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America in Chicago recently, you will hear of conflicts that arose at the convention. The ELCA synod was tackling the tough topic of whether openly gay and lesbian Lutheran clergy may serve in position of pastor of a congregation. They are also discussing the topic of whether the Lutheran clergy may bless same gender relationships. This are highly emotionally charged issues and not all members of the ELCA are in total agreement on these issues. As you perhaps know, the Anglican/Episcopal Churches are facing the same issues and much division had arisen among these churches internationally. The Methodist Church and the Presbyterian Church are also facing these same issues. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 20, 2007 5:59 PM:

" You can do your own research, because you will not believe me. Research Magdelne Laundries. The Catholic Church imprisoned women on often false charges and forced them to do laundry under abusive conditions. Women who are still alive can testify to this. The last person who tried to refute this was only able to say "Well others did it also". Do the research, remember this went on until 1967, and then come back and let me see what kind of excuse you can invent. As has been mentioned before there is a documentary about the abuse made into a movie called The Magdelen Sisters. It will be very interesting to see you squirm out of this one. There is plenty of evidence and information. You will also find documentation that the sisters buried these people in an unmarked grave. "

Hello Ezra wrote on Aug 20, 2007 5:10 PM:

" Are you sure that the church enslaved women or did they more often give women a place to go who had no place else to go? The Kings provided no social safety nets in the Middle Ages. In Middle Ages mythology Robin Hood was a criminal that lived in the “Kings Forest” and poached the “Kings Deer”. The problems of the Middle Ages were not just lack of land or employment. Feudalism meant all our ancestors in that system were owned by a Feudal Lord. Some evidence about the Little Ice Age ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age ) indicates it was probably caused by a very large volcano blowing smoke high enough to orbit the Earth and block sunlight. Crops failed, starvation and disease increased. In other words the “Dark Ages” really were dark and both fish and crops were effected. Why were fish effected: because the bottom of the food chain is vegetable plankton that depends on sunlight, not just the minerals in the water. In Ireland the Conquest by England prolonged their misery. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 20, 2007 4:18 PM:

" If you read all the writing on this blog, you will see over and over that every time religion is accused of a crime, someone come around with the same excuse. The excuse is always, the same. Yes, priest abused little boys, but so did other. Yes, the church enslaved women to do laundry, but so did other. Yes, the church burned witches, but so did others. Over and over people forgive the terrible things done by the church by saying others did the same thing. If a church cannot rise above the terrible acts of those around it, what is the point? How can the church teach morality, when it has no higher moral standard than those it is teaching. "

To: Comfort Level wrote on Aug 20, 2007 3:57 PM:

" I can empasize with you as you describe a "discomforting presence" that could be felt in the prison after a guard or inmate was killed. No doubt, this was another reminder that the prison environment was unsafe for both inmates and guards, especially in maximum security. I can appreciate you and other guards wanting a clergyman to be present to offer spiritual and personal support to inmates in need, and to the guards. I don't want to justify the lack of presence of Catholic clergy in the prison system. What seems to happen is that you will find non-Catholic chaplains serving with the local fire department, jail ministry, sheriff's department, hospital, nursing home, prison system, city youth out-reach programs, etc. A chaplain does not necessarily need to be an ordained clergyman. There are lots of non-ordained chaplains serving in various ministries. Also, lots of pastors of Protestant churches are not ordained. You will know whether the pastor of a Protestant church is ordained by whether he/she is addressed as Reverend or pastor. They may be a pastor of a congregation without lots of seminary training and ordination. The tendency among Protestant churches is to have small congregations which allows the pastor to get to know personally his/her flock. Because the congregation is small, the pastor will have time to serve as chaplain in one or more of the above-mentioned ministries. When a Catholic priest serves as pastor of the only parish in town/city, he automatically is chaplain of the Catholic patients in the local hospital, chaplain of the Catholic residents in the local nursing home, and chaplain of the Catholic inmates at the local jail. "

to ezra wrote on Aug 20, 2007 3:41 PM:

" If you have a problem with the religious killing to force other to their beliefs, then you should have a problem with the non-religious who also kill for their beliefs or becuase of what others believe. See China or any other dictatorship who hates religion "

Comfort Level wrote on Aug 20, 2007 2:44 PM:

" In the 1960’s seems a different world looking back. Once when traveling through Bakersfield California we stopped to attend the local Catholic Church. It was very impressive perhaps because it was large and new and had lots of elbow room. It felt very comfortable at all times. They had even gone to the trouble of having two podiums where one Priest would talk in Latin and then the other would repeat it in English. Lots of windows and probably air-conditioned. Had we lived in Bakersfield there is no doubt that we would have regularly attended that church. The Priests were not glaring at us but seemed content with their situation and making an effort to reach out. But let me throw in a personal issue that bothered me in later years. I have worked in overcrowded problem prisons. When staff or inmates are being killed I would think at some point one of our ministers or the priest would show interest in the cellblock. When someone hangs himself, especially in the maximum-security unit, you would think a minister or priest would walk through to see if anyone had issues that they wanted to communicate. No one has ever seen ghosts or angles in maximum security but the negativity after a death, especially on the night shift, is something hard to describe. No the ministers and priest have their own “Chapel” and seldom are seen elsewhere. People who talk in a tough dictatorial way but never show up where they might be in personal danger are not very high on my list. The protestant chaplains were far more friendly and polite. Many police departments had police chaplains that were very impressive individuals. By definition the people confined in maximum security can not go to the Chapel. The medical doctor would walk through maximum security once a week making sure no medical issues were being overlooked. But he was a for-real tough old man. I have already said more than I should say. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 20, 2007 2:06 PM:

" God could have been the cause of everything, however we have no way of proving it or knowing it. I have no problem with people speculating, I just wish they were adult enough to admit it. The part that disturbs me is when the same people make up things that have no basis in truth or reality, and then proceed to kill everyone who doesn't accept their story. The world has suffered for hundreds of years with different groups insisting their story is correct, and wanting to impose it on everyone. I am suggesting people label their fantasy as speculation and warn people that it may or may not be true. This would seem to stop a lot of the fighting that has taken place in every part of the world caused by religion. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 20, 2007 2:02 PM:

" I do not hear anyone calling it the Catholic Theory, or the Baptist Theory, it seems to me at least the Big Bang people are honest. The real issue is being honest about what you know, or do not know. No religion I know is honest in that regard, they all claim to know things that they do not know. A major difference between physics, science, and religion is that with physics, and science you can get repeatable results. This does not seem to be the case with religion. You cannot repeat the cross experiment, nor can you repeat the miracles. In view of this it would seem science has a leg up. Science produces consistent reliable results. Religion never produces the same results. One guy prays and claims it works, the next guy says the exact same prayer and nothing happens. However, you always get water when you combine oxygen, and hydrogen. All I am asking is that people be honest and label fact as such, and speculation as such. "

to ezra wrote on Aug 20, 2007 1:33 PM:

" I also have to disagree with you on a point. You say the people with the big bang theory say it may or may not be true. In my experience the people who put forth that theory not only demand if be viewed as fact, but completely ignore any and all holes in the theory. They do in fact call it fact and forget it is a theory. It becomes somewhat of a religion to them. My question to you is, why can't the big bang theory and the theory of evolution be true with God being the cause? Why couldn't or wouldn't God work through these theories? Maybe he created everything with a bang. "

to ezra wrote on Aug 20, 2007 1:29 PM:

" The laws of physics support the big bang theory? How so. Do the laws of physics say it will happen all by itself? And what do you say about the people who have seen angels? how about those who swear they have heard the voice of God himself? How about those who have had miracles happen in their lives that can't be explained by anything other than believing in a God? You know the examples. the person with terminal cancer that wakes up one day and is healed. The person hurt in an accident and should be dead but lives. Explain those without God. Fantasy? Please, it is more fantasy and takes more faith not to believe in a god than it does to believe in God. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 20, 2007 11:40 AM:

" The big bang theory is labeled as what it is, a theory. A theory is based on reasonable assumptions. On the other hand religion is not labeled as fantasy, How could any rational person say that something involving angels, devils, saints, and the other aspects of religion is based on reasonable assumptions. The laws of physics support the big bang theory. The laws of physics cast a lot of doubt on angels, devils, and miracles. People who put forth the big bang theory are the first to say it may or may not be true. Religious people on the other hand never warn people that the information they are putting out may not be true. Do you see the difference? "

married wrote on Aug 20, 2007 11:00 AM:

" All a person needs to do is A. get a dispensation from the church, or B. have a priest bless it. Both are easy to get, believe me on that. People who are divorced can recieve communion unless they remarry without an annulment. It's not a sin to live apart from your spouse, it is a sin to cheat on them which is what the catholic church considers it unless there was an annulment. The whole annulment. "

to ezra wrote on Aug 20, 2007 10:57 AM:

" So how can we say the big bang theory or theory of evolution be called fact? The fact is data has been collected and extrapolated but no one knows for sure what happened or why. Much of science is based on the same things religion is based on, faith. "

To: Married wrote on Aug 20, 2007 10:21 AM:

" Catholics who marry outside the Catholic Church are not to present themselves for receiving Communion. Nor are divorced Catholics who are in another marriage without having received an annulment from their first marriage to be receiving Communion. I have heard of many in those situations who do not agree with that ruling and so receive Communion. Both Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI has said that is a no-no. "

To: Tommy wrote on Aug 20, 2007 10:09 AM:

" Are you suggesting that there are no conflicts in the Lutheran Church? Hopefully, we don't see any posts attacking the Lutherans on this blog. Maybe there aren't any Lutherans where you live. If you aren't aware of any conflicts within the Lutheran Tradition then let me point out a few, but again, not to pick on Lutherans. There is the Lutheran Church of America, American Lutheran Church, Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, Missouri Synod Lutherans, Wisconsin Synod Lutherans, Independent Lutheran Church, and a few others. A couple pastors in the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church have said to me emphatically there they are the only authentic Lutherans, and that the other Lutherans are in heresy. A couple Lutheran pastor friends of mine said to me that they left the ELCA because of the unscriptural direction in which the synod was moving. They joined a Lutheran Synod that they considered conservative and more traditional. Did you know that the Lutheran Church in Germany, the birthplace of Martin Luther, continues the Catholic practices such devotion to the Virgin Mary, the Rosary, the tabernacle with the Blessed Sacrament reserved, incense, etc.? Did you know that the Lutheran Church of Sweden claims to have apostolic succession, valid ordinations within the Roman Catholic Tradition, and they have bishops and priests? They address their priests as "Father" and not as Reverend as do the Lutherans in the U.S. A monastery/retreat house of these Lutherans has been in operation near Lake Orion, Michigan for many years. Did you know that the Lutheran Church in Germany has an order of nuns called "Handmaids of Mary"? A convent of these Lutherans nuns from Germany was established near Phoenix, Ariz., several years ago. "

Tommy wrote on Aug 20, 2007 8:07 AM:

" Like I said" how could the catholics be any more divided" You never hear of any conflict within the Luthern Church? Maybe this is why Martin Luther broke off in the first place??? hmmm? good question? "

Ezra wrote on Aug 20, 2007 7:59 AM:

" You seem to have difficulty distinguishing between fact and belief. There is no factual basis for an after life. You may believe in an after life, but it is not a fact. There is no factual basis for religion. Because a lot of people believe something, does not make it a fact. When people are willing to believe something is a fact, when it is not, then you have the basis for some very dangerous thinking. The Klan, The Nazis, and many other groups were made up of people who confused beliefs with facts. Here are some ideas about facts that may help you. # a piece of information about circumstances that exist or events that have and occurred; "first you must collect all the facts of the case" # a statement or assertion of verified information about something that is the case or has happened; "he supported his argument with an impressive array of facts" # an event known to have happened or something known to have existed; "your fears have no basis in fact"; "how much of the story is fact and how much fiction is hard to tell" "

to comfort level wrote on Aug 20, 2007 7:27 AM:

" Your story is like many I have heard and it was the exact reason for the second vatican council. People back then were more worried about appearance and tradition than they were about God. The church is a very, different and in my opinion better, place now. I know this because I have many relatives that go to pius X masses. If I were subject to that treatment all the time, I wouldn't come back either. Here is the funny thing, most traditionalists treat modern day Catholics like they have the plauge. They will not ever accept anything but their own beliefs. Their traditions created by man have become so important to them, they have forgotten the teachings of Jesus. Hmm, sounds like the Jews of Jesus time doens't it? At any rate, the second vatican council was meant to bring back the teachings of Jesus and I believe it has. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 20, 2007 6:54 AM:

" Because you don't know something, or understand it, it does not make sense just to invent an answer. Religion is just a system of thought invented by man. It has no basis in fact or reality. The sad thing is that religion has been the basis of war and hate for centuries. My thesis is that we are better off without it. Adults should be able to admit when they don't have an answer or know something. It is a crime against humanity to make up a fantasy and foist it on other people and children. If you take the time to study the Mormon Church you can see the exact details of how it was invented and that it is a fraud. The only difference with other religions is that they were frauds invented at an earlier time. If you are willing to give validity to the Catholic Church, then why not say the Hindu belief is true, and Muslim belief is also correct. You have no problem saying they are fraudulent, but you have the audacity to say your group is divine. The contradiction of this should be obvious to a child. Remember this nonsense causes war. "

Comfort Level wrote on Aug 19, 2007 11:08 PM:

" To: To: Comfort Level. I would not want to rock the boat. We were married in Las Vegas at about 2am in the 1960's (I talked her into the 7 hour drive to get married trip, but she could out-drink me so I ended up married;-). The Catholic Church has no doubt lightened up on some issues. Her father played golf with the priest so each time we traveled the thousand miles to visit he made sure we baptized the latest kid Catholic. Other than that religion in my family is a personal thing. In the 60’s in California the several times we went to Catholic Church usually the priest and I stared at each other while everyone else did their bows and prayers. No one ever approached me in friendship or even made themselves obviously available. The only relaxed conversation I ever had was while touring an old California Mission. The person I assumed to be a priest was dressed in a brown robe. I heard later that they are monks that work in the kitchens or whatever. It was a delight to talk with him about the history of the mission and why it had a cannon on the side porch. Actually he was a bit evasive about the small cannon. They probably moved it when it became obvious how much money an antique like was worth. Come to think of it a friend told a story about some teenagers loading it and firing it one night. When you get old and set in your ways it is all just history. Retiring to the Bible Belt I should learn to not bring these things up. We need to hang on to all our old grudges whether or not they are out of date. It was important back when it was important, at that time at that place. My wife says she enjoyed Latin Mass. When she had our first child baptized in California he was crying loudly. The priest told her to come back but not to bring the baby. Naturally she never returned. "

to ezra wrote on Aug 19, 2007 10:17 PM:

" You say open your mind and yet I see you as the close minded one here. You obviously do have hate for the catholic church and those who believe in it. Obviously on some level you do not respect your son-in-law because if you did you would not speak as you do about his faith and religion. Fact is fact, that is true, and the facts of the matter are science hasn't been able to prove much of anything as to why people are here and what happens after they die. Fact number 2, the Catholic church has a sordid history but there is also much misinterpretation out there placed by the enemies of the church. Fact number 3, everyone, even the pope, is a sinner and deserving of forgiveness. The only way to that forgiveness and everlasting life is through Christ. Fact number 4, you say cult and yet people can come and go as they please, they aren't forced to live in the church, no one is forcibly taking all the money of the members, and they help one another as well as the poor and downtrodden, the addict, etc. That is no cult my friend nor are the mormons a cult. Perhaps a little less hate and a little more opening of your own mind is in order. "

married wrote on Aug 19, 2007 10:10 PM:

" Even married outside the catholic church, it would not be considered a sin and she still would be able to take part in communion. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 19, 2007 6:52 PM:

" I am amazed that facts are always give a tone. A fact is a fact. A fact is not pro or con for Christianity, it is a fact. If a fact sheds bad light on Christianity, so be it. However, to say there are anti-Christian facts is absurd. This is equivalent to saying there is anti- Christian physics. The laws of nature do not choose side, nor do facts. I have been accused of hating Catholics. I have many good friends who are Catholics. In fact my daughter is married to one. My goal is to save these people from this cult. I do this because I love them, not because I hate them. If they had fallen into the Mormon Cult, or the Baptist Cult it would be the same. Because you tell an alcoholic about the bad history of drunks, does not mean you hate him. You might be trying to point out the fact that historically being a drunk has not proven a good thing. Open your mind and trying thinking about this differently. "

To: Comfort Level wrote on Aug 19, 2007 6:31 PM:

" You will have better luck at finding beer and pizza at a rectory than at seeing beer and pizza being served as Communion in a Catholic Church. The unleavened bread that Catholics use at Mass has its roots in Jewish tradition. Wine is still a common drink in Israel. At the Last Supper, Jesus used the unleavened bread and wine in the Passover celebration to change into His Body and Blood for His disciples to share in His memory. Sharing the consecrated Body and Blood is much more than a mere symbol, according to Scripture and according to Catholic beliefs. You say that your wife is not able to receive Catholic Sacraments because she married you, who are a non-Catholic. If you were married in the Catholic Church, there should be no reason for her not to be able to receive the Catholic Sacraments. You do not need to be Catholic in order to be married to a Catholic. There must be a misunderstanding of some kind. Let me suggest that you invite a priest to your home so that you and your wife can discuss your marriage situation over a glass of beer and pizza with the priest. "

Comfort Level wrote on Aug 19, 2007 6:07 PM:

" A Catholic, who is more than a friend, said that Catholic Mass was more musical years ago. She said her priest would sing the chant and that Latin is a very musical language. I tried to switch subjects to the church bias for wine when most of our ancestors came from (barley) beer areas not warmer grape growing (wine) areas. I proclaimed my bias for Beer and Pizza. She informed me that a lot of priests would be happy to share Beer and Pizza with me. No, I am still mad at the church for not permitting her to take sacraments after she married me a non catholic. She is still brainwashed remembering the good times she had in Catholic School and Church. It was her stability as she and her mother followed her military father from country to country during and after WWII. If it was so good they would not have stupid rules about marrying non Catholics. "

To: Say What??? wrote on Aug 19, 2007 2:35 PM:

" What topic do you suggest would bring about some semblance of unity between Catholics and Protestants, non-Christians and non-believers? On this blog, the topic of fundamentalism came up several times. CNN will be doing a documentary on fundamentalism this week. You will find an article on this documentary on the home page of the Bismarck Tribune. If you can believe this, the Tribune listed this documentary under the category of "Entertainment." The topic of fundamentalism in religion and in society could be interest to believers in God and non-believers. I would still like to hear from some serious minded posters whether they think that the Latin Mass is able to bring about unity among Catholics, which was the hope of Pope Benedict XVI in allowing more frequent use of the Latin Mass of Blessed John XXIII. "

SayWhat??? wrote on Aug 19, 2007 10:12 AM:

" I think its time for the Tribune to rename this topic. It has very little to do with the original question of whether latin mass will unite or divide. In reading most of these posts, it has nothing to do anymore with the topic. I think it is time to move on or change the name of this topic. "

To: Tommy wrote on Aug 18, 2007 10:06 PM:

" No one should be surprised to see that there is much division among the posters here. The topic of the article was whether having the Mass in Latin would unite or divide Catholics. Non-Catholics and non-Christians wouldn't have an interest in that topic, so the posts here naturally would stray off onto other topics, whether positive or negative. Some posters expressed very strong anti-Christian feelings, which shouldn't suprise anyone. What is disappointing is to see that lots of folks can' t separate Christians who are committed to follow a way of life that brings much meaning into their personal lives, social lives, and professional lives, as opposed to those who are Christian in name only. In the minds of these folks, all Christians are not authentic and they use their religious beliefs to carry out evil actions. True Christians believe that all Christians are sinners and are always in need of a Savior. "

denying wrote on Aug 17, 2007 12:58 PM:

" And now we see the real point dont we Ezra. It's all about the payout. "

To: Ezra wrote on Aug 17, 2007 12:13 PM:

" Actually, interest in getting compensation for doing dirty laundry has been around for centuries. Older women have have been saying for years that they would be rich now if they had been paid for washing the dirty diapers of their children, and had received payment for washing the dirty laundry for their husbands. You really aren't concerned about the women who were mistreated in the laundry industry in Ireland. Your agenda is to hang out the dirty laundry of Christian Churches, and in the process to make yourself look good, honest, and concerned. "

To: To: Ezra wrote on Aug 17, 2007 12:03 PM:

" I enjoyed your post more than I enjoyed Ezra's post. :) "

To: Ezra wrote on Aug 17, 2007 12:01 PM:

" A young man sent me a letter saying that he is now a Wiccan witch. He said that he was disilliusioned with the Protestant Church in which he was raised. It was enlightening to learn from your research that the Catholic Church started the Wiccan religion and other witch covens for disillusioned Protestants, and then tortured them for being witches. Some time ago, I watched a documentary on television in which a self-proclaimed witch was saying that she operates a store in Toledo, Ohio selling witchery items to fellow witches. Your post helped me to see that the Catholic Church is also behind setting up stores for witches around the country. No doubt, revenues from these stores for witches are being used to keep the Vatican in operation. Some time ago, I read news reports that the U.S. military was hiring witches to serve as chaplains to service men and women who are witches and who are serving in the various branches of the U.S. military service. Without a doubt, the Catholic Church is involved somehow with the U.S. military to keep the religion of the witches going so the Catholic Church has witches to persecute. "

Hello Ezra wrote on Aug 17, 2007 11:57 AM:

" You probably have never talked with people who were adults during the horse and buggy days. I have conversed with people born as far back as perhaps 1875 or so. Before the telephone and the typewriter about the only job for women was to be a nurse or take in laundry. When the wars or plagues killed a womans husband or father she had few ways to feed herself. You might read about feudalism and how it changed to share cropping and such. All land and resources in Europe was owned. The Church provided places for women to go where they had food and shelter. Men could always join the army. How many on Napoleons men had noplace else to go? Even much later the Irish immigrants who rode with Custer had few choices. Perhaps you’ve never heard of the signs in windows in this country “no dogs, sailors, or Irish”. "

Tommy wrote on Aug 17, 2007 11:53 AM:

" after reading these posts I dont see how they could get any more divided than they already are. "

To: Ezra wrote on Aug 17, 2007 10:40 AM:

" I am probably one of the few that enjoy your research. However you do not say who is behind the anti-Christian sites you mention. Not important because we all know the real way people came to this planet. Long ago this was a tourist planet where interplanetary travelers came to enjoy the simple ocean view with no life forms to bother them. Like people in present times who travel in motor homes they occasionally needed to dump their holding tanks. That is where you and I evolved from. People on this site will not be able to prove I am wrong so I must be correct "

To: Peaceful wrote on Aug 17, 2007 10:21 AM:

" You are undoubtedly too close-minded to do so, but you might want to get the CD version of Dr. Bart Ehren's "The Historical Jesus," a college level course of lectures available from The Teaching Company. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 17, 2007 10:13 AM:

" Dear Not Denying: Women are still alive today who were enslaved in the Magdalan Laundries by the Catholic Church. If the Pope did not know about it, he does now. The Church has paid out over $1.5 billion for priest scandals. Don't you think these women should be compensated for the fact that they were imprisoned without trial and forced to do laundry? Please explain. "

Ezra wrote on Aug 17, 2007 9:56 AM:

" This information comes from Religious Tolorance. Org. To say that bad things came from outside the mainline church is simply not true. : 1450: The first major witch hunts began in many western European countries. The Roman Catholic Church created an imaginary evil religion, using stereotypes that had circulated since pre-Christian times. They said that Pagans who worshiped Diana and other Gods and Goddesses were evil Witches who kidnapped babies, killed and ate their victims, sold their soul to Satan, were in league with demons, flew through the air, met in the middle of the night, caused male impotence and infertility, caused male genitals to disappear, etc. Historians have speculated that this religiously inspired genocide was motivated by a desire by the Church to attain a complete religious monopoly, or was "a tool of repression, a form of reining-in deviant behavior, a backlash against women, or a tool of the common people to name scapegoats for spoiled crops, dead livestock or the death of babies and children." Walter Stephens, a professor of Italian studies at Johns Hopkins University, proposes a new theory: "I think Witches were a scapegoat for God." 3 Religious leaders felt that they had to retain the concepts of both an omnipotent and an all-loving deity. Thus, they had to invent Witches and demons in order to explain the existence of evil in the world. This debate, about how an all-good and all-powerful God can coexist in the world with evil is now called Theodicy. Debate continues to the present day. "

peaceful wrote on Aug 17, 2007 7:26 AM:

" Have you never read the bible? Jesus said love the poor, love one another. He never said kill, he stopped Peter from killing the soilders who came to take him away. The only time he ever showed anger was with the money changers in the temple! In fact, show me even 1 teaching by Jesus that wasn't peaceful. By the way, unless you were there you can't prove mathhew mark luke or john dind't exist. Maybe it's what you think, but you have no proof just like you have no proof of how the world came to be. It's all guesswork that you feel like attributing to fact. "

not denying wrote on Aug 17, 2007 7:22 AM:

" I don't think you can deny the terrible things in the church's histroy, but I think you can safely say that most were done outside the teachings of the church by individuals who should never have been priests or nuns anyway. Many have also been misunderstood in history. The crusades for instance were started becuase muslims were attacking Chrustian pilgrims to the holy land. Was it wrong for priests to abuse boys and the bishops to cover it up? YOu are darn right it was and I believe God will deal with them swiftly. Did the Pope know about the scandal? I don't believe so because I believe he would have taken care of it. NOW, what about other parts of society? There are teachers who abuse kids, congressmen abusing interns, presidents sleeping with interns. The sad fact of the matter is, our society is awful in places and that has managed to creep in to a small number of priests. Right? No it's not but it has happened. Is it a reflection of the whole church and their followers? Absolutly not! "

Ezra wrote on Aug 16, 2007 10:06 PM:

" If one points out historical inadequacies in the Catholic Church, does that constitute trashing? It would seem that historical facts do not have a flavor. It would be great if we could ignore the past and pretend like it did not happen, but I see no need for disdain when someone points out historical facts. I have yet to hear anyone challenge that any of the things alleged did not take place. Some historical realities are indeed unpleasant, but one should consider any organization in light of how it came to be. Ye shall know a tree by its fruit. It would seem that if one only pointed out one aspect of an organization and ignored the unpleasantry, that would be propaganda. Are you proposing that only the good be exposed, and the bad ignored? "

To: To Manipulate Children wrote on Aug 16, 2007 9:07 PM:

" What "...peaceful teachings of Jesus..." are you referring to? If you really look into what is historically real in the so-called New Testament Gospels -- by the way, not written by Mark, Mathew, Luke, and John (no such persons ever existed; these names were ascribed to these various writings, which were written by numerous authors) -- you will find that Jesus was regarded in his day and locale as a minor itinerant preacher who proclaimed the imminent "kingdom of god," which would be a divine intervention that would overthrow the existing evils to begin a new era of love and prosperity. But his warnings about this imminent event were anything but "peaceful teachings." What is most interesting...he claimed this divine intervention and the resulting "kingdom of god" would occur in his lifetime. We are still waiting... "

to online editor wrote on Aug 16, 2007 8:09 PM:

" I am pretty sure think for yourself and his thousand aliases is the only one left here trashing catholics. He must be quite a catholic hater "

Online Editor wrote on Aug 16, 2007 7:09 PM:

" To Think For Yourself: I have allowed you to post many comments to this blog under several names. To keep the conversation manageable, please choose a name and stick with it. "

Independant thought? wrote on Aug 16, 2007 6:43 PM:

" The Pope says something, you accept it as true. The priest tells you something, you accept it as true. How could anyone who accepts all church thinking without questioning be an independent thinker? "

Think For Yourself wrote on Aug 16, 2007 6:38 PM:

" Strange that someone who thinks for them self would come up with exactly the same fantasy as an organization. How could anyone thinking for them self end up believing in angels, devils, saints, miracles,and the other stuff. Would it not seem highly unprobable that you would end up with exactly the same fantasy as the other people sitting in church beside you and claim you independently came to the same conclusion. By definition cult members do not think for themselves. "

To: What an excuse wrote on Aug 16, 2007 1:01 PM:

" If you read through these posts, you will find that no one was condoning sexual abuse of children, the misuse of contributions to the church, or any other scandals that were carried out by representatives of the Catholic Church. You will also find in these same posts attempts being made to point out that also much good have been done by members of the Catholic Church during the past 2,000 years. No matter how often members of the Catholic Church apologize for wrongs committed there are enough of you around to keep throwing the dirt back into the faces of all Catholics. Some place in your King James Version Bible, Jesus said, "Don't try to take the speck out of your brother's eye when you have a beam in your own eye." "

To: Manipulate Children wrote on Aug 16, 2007 11:52 AM:

" You sound like a victim of brainwashing. It is easy to pick out your posts on this blog. You keep repeating the same topic and ideas over and over again. Repetition of an idea is one of the techniques of brainwashing. Are you trying to brainwash us into believing that you have the truth and that the rest of us are not capable of thinking for ourselves? "

Manipulation? wrote on Aug 16, 2007 11:47 AM:

" Its called social programming "

What an excuse wrote on Aug 16, 2007 11:33 AM:

" Every time you are confronted with an evil deed by the Catholic Church, you response is always the same: Hollywood does it, the Nazis did it, and on it goes. Are you incapable of just saying it is wrong and condemning it? Read through this blog and look at the excuses that have been made for the sex abuse, the enslavements, the inquisitions, and all the other atrocities the church has been involved in. It is always the same excuse. Everybody did it. "

To: Churches not built to code wrote on Aug 16, 2007 11:12 AM:

" That was a good website on the California Missions. Now I know where I will go on my next vacation. Thanks. "

To: Manipulate Children wrote on Aug 16, 2007 10:18 AM:

" So Hollywood movies constantly bombarding our children with images of drugs, violence, and crime is not brainwashing? We now have six year old children suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder from watching Television. You would withhold the peaceful teachings of Jesus? If you compared the grade point average of Catholic schools and public schools across this country you would be very surprised. If you compared the number of young people going to college from Catholic Schools compared to Public Schools you might be enlightened. "

Manipulate Children wrote on Aug 16, 2007 7:16 AM:

" If you take a young child and start at an early age to indoctrinate them, you can get them to do and believe almost anything. It is not fair for an adult to subject a child to the fantasies of religion, and give the child the impression this stuff is true. Most children understand that adults lie about Santa Clause and other things, and learn to dismiss nonsense like religion. However some children with weak minds fall for the lies and end up being the victims of cults and churches that exploit them. As I said before how can you claim that a person who has been subjected to indoctrination can make a free will choice? You can find cult victims involved with cults all over the world who will tell you they freely believe the nonsense of the cult. If they were adults when they chose to join then it is reasonable, but if they were raised under the control of unscrupulous adults, then no rational person would say they freely chose to be cult members. Most Nuns were indoctrinated from an early age to believe in the fantasy of the Church. "

A Christian burial? wrote on Aug 16, 2007 7:08 AM:

" This information is from Wikipedia which has all the references : The existence of the asylums was little thought of until, in 1993, an order of nuns in Dublin sold part of their convent to a real estate developer. The remains of 155 inmates, who had been buried in unmarked graves on the property, were exhumed and, except for one body, cremated and reburied in a mass grave in Glasnevin Cemetery. This triggered a public scandal and became local and national news. In 1999 Mary Norris, Josephine McCarthy and Mary-Jo McDonagh, all asylum inmates, gave accounts of their treatment. The 1998 Channel 4 documentary Sex in a Cold Climate interviewed former inmates of Magdalene Asylums who testified to continued sexual, psychological and physical abuse while being isolated from the outside world for an indefinite amount of time. The conditions of the convents and the treatment of the inmates was shown in the acclaimed film The Magdalene Sisters (2002), written and directed by Peter Mullan. Similar instances of abuse have been reported in Ireland's industrial schools. As a group these institutions were exposed in an RTÉ (state run Irish television) series by reporter Mary Raftery in 1999. Despite the Irish government convening of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse, attempts to obtain compensation for the victims of the system have proven frustrating. [1] [2] Essentially, to be eligible for compensation, a victim must have been resident in one of a number of specifically listed institutions; no Magdalene Laundries are included on this list "

to concept wrote on Aug 15, 2007 11:17 PM:

" I don't know a single nun who was forced in to it. In fact I know many whose families tried talking them out of the decision. Again, since it takes them out of the dating pool for you I guess it is a wierd decision for you. How about this, loose your hatred and learn to accept other beliefs. Isn't that what the left is supposed to be all about anyway? "

laundry wrote on Aug 15, 2007 11:16 PM:

" You fail to mention that many of these women entered these places of their own will. They were prostitutes living short lives before they came. That is why these places were originally created. They were able to come and go as they wanted, many chose the religious life. I guess though since it isn't the life you would choose for yourself or anyone it is a bad thing. Talk to the morman wives sometime, many are quite happy being in multiple wife households. So what now they don't know what they want or like? Maybe we should do a little less judgement and a little more paying attention to our own lives. Good comment on those hating the followers of Christ Matt, it is proving to be true for sure. "

Online Editor wrote on Aug 15, 2007 11:00 PM:

" To Where is the "half truth"?: Please repost your comment with the source of the information. "

Matt wrote on Aug 15, 2007 10:38 PM:

" Jesus said to his disciples "And you will be hated by all for My Name's sake". It looks to me like all the comments attacking the Church and christian believers are in fact fufilling biblical prophecy yourselves. Fantasy? "

What is not true, be specific wrote on Aug 15, 2007 10:15 PM:

" The Magdalene Sisters is a 2002 film written and directed by Peter Mullan about teenage girls who were sent to Magdalene Asylums, otherwise known as the 'Magdalen Laundries': homes for women who were labeled as "fallen" by their families or society (though the film itself questions this). The homes were maintained by individual religious orders in the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland. Peter Mullan has remarked that the film was initially made because victims of Magdalene Asylums had received no closure in the form of recognition, compensation, or apology, and many remained lifelong devout Catholics.[1] Former Magdalen inmate Mary-Jo McDonagh told Mullan that the reality of the Magdalene Asylums was much worse than depicted in the film. "

The concept of free will wrote on Aug 15, 2007 9:50 PM:

" Who would argue that women made a free choice when they were brought up in a cult of indoctrination? You hear the same nonsense from the Mormans. They also claim the women who have been forced to be one of many wives have made the decision out of free choice. They have been brought up in a cult similar to the Catholic cult with all the same indoctrination techniques. Anyone who knows anything about human psychology, knows that free choice does not come out of a cult like atmosphere. How can a person make a free choice when they have not been given the truth. Catholics are not taught the true retched history of the church they are lied to about all the fantasy. How could any person who is not given the truth make an honest choice? "

It is OK beause everyone did it. wrote on Aug 15, 2007 9:45 PM:

" What a bunch of sorry nonsense. It was OK for the church to enslave because everyone did it. It was OK for priest to abuse boys, because it happens a lot. It was OK for the Pope to endorse the Nazi's, we all make mistakes. On it goes. You have a corrupt organization from beginning to end and you expect people to buy the excuse that everyone did it. You would never accept such an excuse from your children I hope. My parents never bought the "everyone does it" story. How can adults apologize for all the atrocities of a CHURCH by saying it was common practice. This is Gods gang you are apologizing for. I have never heard such sorrowful nonsense. As to the half truths about the Magdalen Laundries, please tell us what they are. Every single excuse you have used for the Catholic Church could be used to get the Nazis off the hook. They weren't all bad, and they made the trains run on time, and of course they did not invent any of their tactics. "

Churches not built to code wrote on Aug 15, 2007 7:58 PM:

" We talk about Latin as if it were a big deal. If anyone else had a two hundred year old building with a wood roof and sandstone walls, built on earthquake faults with slave labor, it would be shut down. The Santa Barbara Mission, like many others still holds church services. Really, a tax exempt building not up to any building code is still having church services. Built with Indian slave labor but historically sanitized for the church members and the tourist industry. If it falls down when full of people everyone will look at each other really stupid and start making excuses. This is the biggest one and will fall the hardest. http://www.californiamissions.com/cahistory/santabarbara.html "

To: Suicide Bombers wrote on Aug 15, 2007 3:43 PM:

" You obviously have concluded that women who choose to dedicate their lives in service to the Lord and to the Church are stupid and don't know what they are doing, which gives the Catholic Church the opportunity to take advantage of them. A community of women religious is made up of female members only. Who in the Catholic Church is taking advantage of them and trying to brainwash them, as you keep saying? Me thinks that you need to meet a woman who can give you an attitude adjustment. "

To: Acoma Pueblo wrote on Aug 15, 2007 12:23 PM:

" That is the story of every Mission. Spain was a superpower. New Spain was about conquest and plunder. In every Mission in Mexico and California (including what is now our Border States) there were procedures. First the Spanish Soldiers would build a Presidio (a fort for defense while sleeping or on maneuvers). Then they would round up the Indian’s, a process that killed many males, and would begin building a Mission. The Indians were forced to become Catholic and once completely under the power of the priests most of the Soldiers could move to another location and repeat the process. Each Mission was a Cattle and Sheep ranch. Vineyards when possible. The object was to ship leather, wool, tallow and wine to Spain to enrich the Royal Family. Spanish women were only sent over to this country to be wives of very important officials (upper-class that have facial hair and even now look like Vicente Fox or Geraldo Rivera). Common soldiers married Indian women and the church welcomed the marriage and offspring thus began the culture of Mexico. The process was harsh but more Indians survived under that procedure than up here in the United States. The Spanish farming methods insured large families. That is why Mexico is overpopulated and its Indians and half Indians are migrating here. In California the few remaining American Indians see the migration and are amused at what is happening to us Europeans with our low birth rate. California is named after the Californios now often called Californianos. http://www.loscalifornianos.org/ (mostly it was the name of the Mexican Cowboys). "

native peoples wrote on Aug 15, 2007 12:08 PM:

" So the native peoples were forced to build churches at missions in NM and AZ and much of South America. Ok, what did the soilders who conquered those people do to them? Well they killed them, enslaved them, and stole their gold. Funny thing though, those soilders werent' doing it for religion but rather their country. So again, it was the common thing for the day. Was it right that priests acted like that? No, but again it was the every day practice of that day, just like today certain people think they are better and more educated than others becuase they believe a couple of scientific and unproven theories. "

to ireland wrote on Aug 15, 2007 12:05 PM:

" there you go again spreading half truths about the nuns in ireland. you really should check facts. Your little movie you keep referencing was out to talk about how awful the laundries were so of course it will never present a balanced account. As to religion being the cause of all death, explain China? The country with the worst human rights record in the world and has basically outlawed religion. How about the former soviet union? No religion there and look at their wars and their treatment of people. Oh by the way both were leftist governments so this garbarge about the right and religion causing all problems is a figment built by someone who is obviously scared to realize the real truth. "

Ireland wrote on Aug 15, 2007 11:39 AM:

" As late as 1967 the Catholic Church was duplicit in the enslavement of innocent women in Ireland. The women were put in the custody of Nuns and not allowed to speak at the same time they were forced to do laundry. To say the higher ups did not know