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'Jesus Camp' causes furor

MIKE McCLEARY/Tribune Becky Fischer, director of the youth oriented F.I.R.E. Center in Mandan, is spending a lot of time defending the documentary film "Jesus Camp" she recently produced.  
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Oct 11, 2006 - 15:43:35 CDT

Bismarck Tribune

By KAREN HERZOG

Click here to views clips from "Jesus Camp"



When Becky Fischer of Bismarck gave permission for a pair of documentary filmmakers to film at her "Kids on Fire" prayer camps, she felt good about the idea. She had met the filmmakers; she liked them.

But even before the release of the film, "Jesus Camp," bloggers were spreading the word about it: "We lost control of the message before the movie was even released,"Fischer said.

Fischer has spent the last few weeks in the national media glare trying to reclaim that message in the face of accusations that young children attending these camps are being brainwashed into becoming "foot soldiers" for a right-wing political and religious agenda.

Talk show circuit

After "Jesus Camp" was released by Magnolia Pictures at film festivals earlier this year, a frenzy of reaction to the film thrust Fischer onto the talk show and news circuit. Good Morning America, ABC News, CNN, Joe Scarborough, BBC News, the 700 Club and others, as well as numerous radio talk shows, either reported the story or had Fischer on as a guest.

With her in many of the interviews was Mike Papantonio, an attorney and radio talk show host for Air America's "Ring of Fire." Papantonio appears briefly in the documentary as a voice opposing what he calls the political activities of the Christian right.

But the bulk of the 84-minute documentary is footage of Fischer's "Kids on Fire" camps for children, including one held each summer near Devils Lake. The images that provoked the most shock in viewers were those of children weeping in prayer to stop abortion and talking about "spiritual warfare."

"Jesus Camp" is a prize-winner:It received the Special Documentary Jury Prize at its premiere in May at New York's Tribeca Film Festival, as well as the Sterling Award at the 2006 SilverDocs film festival outside Washington, D.C.

In August, it was screened, despite Magnolia Pictures' request that it be pulled, at Michael Moore's Traverse City (Mich.) Film Festival, where viewers voted it the "Scariest Film."

The movie is now in limited release, scheduled to open in select cities this month.

Fischer said she's been getting negative feedback for weeks, some so vicious that she's had to disconnect her home phone. She said she has asked Magnolia Pictures not to release the film in Bismarck, her hometown for 22 years, quite yet.

"I have to live here,"she said.

Won't disavow film

Fischer, full-time director of Kids in Ministry International and lead pastor of The F.I.R.E. Center in Mandan, was approached a year and a half ago by documentary filmmakers Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady, creators of an earlier documentary, "The Boys of Baraka," which included a 12-year-old boy who was a preacher.

"Do you know any children who preach?" they asked her.

"I know children who preach," Fischer told them. "I know children who heal the sick, do prophetic ministry and pray."

"We instantly became friends," Fischer said. "I felt good in my heart about it."

Ewing and Grady flew out to North Dakota three times, spending about eight days filming at the camp here, Fischer said.

For the two women - one Jewish, the other Catholic - it was their first time around an evangelical community and charismatic worship, Fischer said.

When they met, Grady and Ewing told Fischer that the film had no agenda, it was just an exploration of a subject they were curious about.

Afterward, the two told her that the film acquired its political element when children at the camp were asked to pray for an end to abortion and to pray for President Bush, Fischer said.

Fischer was pressed by some to disavow the way the film portrayed her kids' camp.

Condensing 260 hours of film into 76 minutes distills the experience, and camp experiences tend to be very intense, but no images were distorted or invented, she said. Fischer said that the majority of people who were filmed feel they were presented fairly.

Rather than disavow "Jesus Camp," Fischer ultimately decided to accept the intense publicity as a way to get her message out in a way she could never have done otherwise.

Spiritual warfare

Fischer has been grilled by interviewers about a segment which some think shows children "worshipping" a cardboard cutout of Bush, another in which children perform a drama in camouflage and use "war" language, others in which children weep when talking about stopping abortion, as well as a clip of Fischer talking about how the Taliban trains youngsters to its cause.

Most people outside the charismatic community have no context, no "grid," as Fischer calls it, to understand what they are seeing.

In interview after interview, Fischer says the image of children touching a cardboard image of Bush is not "worship," she said: "Absolutely not."

"The Bible tells believers to pray for leaders and for those in authority," she said. "What people are seeing is children praying for the president."

Fischer makes the point that if these images of children speaking in tongues, of dancing and praying, were in a black church, people would think nothing of it. But because the children are mostly white, people don't expect to see this, she said.

Is this abusive? Their parents are standing right there, Fischer said. If they felt the children were being abused or traumatized, they could have stepped in, she said.

Adults also are shocked because they rarely see children "this passionate" about anything, Fischer believes, or never feel passionate about faith themselves.

What about the language of warfare, the children performing in camouflage makeup?

Insider language, she says. Today, people hear "war" words and think only "terrorism," she said.

Phrases from the Bible urge believers to "fight the good fight" of faith, she said, "against what wars against our soul. This is spiritual warfare. Our weapons are not guns and bombs, but prayer."

"People are not our enemies."

Emotional

manipulation feared

One local clergyman who has seen the film in its entirety, the Rev. Jim Moos of Bismarck's United Church of Christ, is uncomfortable with a lot of it, he said.

"I heard a lot of language of 'war' and 'enemy,' " he said. "Jesus talked about enemies a lot - he talked about loving them and praying for them."

Moos said Fischer has the right to do what she is doing, but he sees in the documentary the emotional manipulation of children in unhealthy ways.

"It's certainly never too early to expose children to faith,"Moos said. "I'm not sure that taking 5-, 6-, 7-, 8-year-olds and instilling them with fear and guilt, is eliciting the kind of faith commitments we would all like to see."

Moos, who has served as a military chaplain, also said he doesn't like the blending of religion and patriotism:"I'm uncomfortable wrapping Jesus in the flag," he said.

"My question is, what does any of this have to do with the cross?"he said. "Are Christians supposed to seek power and rule the state?"

Moos believes that Christians should be conscience of the state, but there's no call to rule.

"This call to power - I'm not sure Isee any connection between that and the self-giving love that is in the cross."

Evangelicals may be concerned about the message in this film as well, he said: "I don't see this as a liberal-conservative divide."

In the film Fischer talked about Muslim extremists, Moos said, "and sort of held them up as a model, as if to say they have the correct method but the wrong message."

"I'm trying to be fair, but I hear no talk of love or grace or acceptance. (It's a) very hard, 'this is war' message."

Minister says camps

misrepresented

A lot of what has been written about Fischer is "very, very inaccurate," said the Rev. Alan Koch, pastor of the Church of Christ Triumphant, based in Lee's Summit, Mo., a suburb of Kansas City. Fischer is ordained for ministry through this charismatic church.

Koch said that he has known Becky Fischer for four years. Some of the children from his church have attended Fischer's camps.

"Regretfully," from Koch's point of view, "the documentary does not reflect her. She is not political or militant. She wants kids who carry Bibles and proclaim the love of God."

"Jesus Camp" really didn't do justice to what was really taking place,he said. "The camps are showing kids how wonderful a relationship with Jesus really is, as well as the importance of prayer, that prayer really changes things," he said.

"The gist (of the camps) is teaching kids that God really does love them, cares for them. God does love people, regardless of whether they follow him or or not. Teaching them to treat others with dignity and respect."

"The lives of these kids have changed," he said. "When they come back (from camp), they are more concerned with their relationship with Jesus than before. They get along better with siblings and other kids, become model students. They want to excel and lead others."

Free with emotion

The sight of children weeping over abortion, or prophesying or praying, is outside the comfort zone of many Christian circles, Fischer said.

But to charismatic believers, these are familiar worship experiences, she said. "In the charismatic community, we are very free with emotion, dancing, raising, clapping our hands."

Fischer, who's been a children's pastor for 15 years, grew up in a traditional Pentecostal church environment and became "born-again"at an early age.

Statistics estimate charismatics to be one-fourth to one-third of the 80 million to 100 million Americans who call themselves evangelicals. Fischer said that charismatics are the fastest-growing segment of evangelicals, citing a figure of 600 million worldwide.

Theologically, charismatics believe in God as Trinity, in Jesus Christ as the incarnate Son of God and the validity of the Bible, Fischer said.

"Where we part company (with other evangelicals) is charismatics believe the supernatural is alive and well," she said. "Evangelicals believe that miracles ended when the Bible ended. We still believe in the supernatural. We still believe in the miraculous."

Christianity is in danger of losing an entire generation of its children, Fischer said. She said that 70 percent of children leave the church when they become teenagers and never come back. Children form their core beliefs by age 6 or 7; what they believe then, they will believe the rest of their lives, she said.

She believes the way to keep children is to give them, not watered-down Bible stories, but what she calls "the meat" of faith.

Children, she believes, are an "untapped resource" of potential ministers of the gospel.

'Cutting edge'

Karen Sattem, a speech therapist from Newark, Del., met Fischer at a conference about six years ago and became one of Fischer's first financial supporters.

"Becky has such a heart to see children move out in the realm of the spirit of God,"Sattem said. "We both believe that children can be used mightily by God at a young age," she said. "Becky's philosophy is the same - that children can be ministers. I have seen so many children (perform) signs, wonders, miracles.

"Children have to be led and taught how to move in the spirit," Sattem said. Children's tears, Sattem believes, are "the heart-cry of God, crying for souls. They are intercessors."

Sattem said that she expected that "people of the (secular) world" wouldn't understand the film. There also was a lot of misunderstanding even among Christians:That was hurtful, Sattem said.

Fischer is "on the maximum cutting edge with children in ministry,"Sattem said, "and is daring to take them into realms that nobody has ever done. This is a new thing."

"People are looking for the realm of the supernatural. They want to know there's a real God. They want to see miracles, to see healing flow."

People today can "walk and talk with God,"Sattem said, "if we learn how to tune into it and get all distractions out, to train them to shut down, be quiet and obey. Everything in the Bible is based on trust and obey,"she said.

As for the current strong reaction to the film, Sattem says, "the most persecution that you get, the more the breakthrough comes when the dust settles.Ibelieve that's what's going to happen."

Church and state

Don Morrison, of Bismarck, director of the North Dakota Center for the Public Good, also has seen "Jesus Camp" in its entirety.

"My reaction is that these people have every right to do what they're doing, but it goes against all the traditions and core values of America," he said. "They actually look at the Islamic jihadist as the role model for what (Fischer) wants to do in this country," he said. "It's bringing back religious warfare to our culture."

In the film, talk show host Papantonio, who is a member of the United Methodist Church, warns against the mingling of church and state.

For Fischer, the political cannot be separated from belief.

"We can't believe one thing and live another. Belief does not stop at the voting booth," she said. "For born-again Christians, our opinions look to the Word of God for answers. (For) all issues, that's where we go.

"We go to the Bible, it's our foundation and anchor."

Fischer said that fears of creating an American Christian "theocracy" are unfounded.

"We have no intention of forcing people to become Christians," she said. "We just want to get back to where we were."

Christians are tired, she said, of children not being able to pray over their school lunch or sing Christmas carols.



Silent mainstream

In American history, Morrison, a former Sunday School teacher, said, "These folks have risen and fallen. Each time they've risen, most Americans have said, 'I don't think so.' "

What's been different in the last 30 years, Morrison said, is that mainstream Americans have been silent.

"Nobody is speaking out. Mainstream religion has been silent in public up to this point. Nobody wants to be the first person to say, 'This has gone too far.' "

Morrison said that the religious right has a stranglehold on American views on religion: His question to the public would be: "How can we live together and respect each other? What kind of world do we want to live in?"

To view Becky Fischer's media interviews, visit http://country95radio.com/JesusCamp.html.

For more information about the documentary, visit http://www.magpictures.com.

(Reach Karen Herzog at 250-8267 or karen.herzog@;bismarcktribune.com. )
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'Jesus Camp' causes furor
Comments

Dave Bundy, editor wrote on Nov 18, 2006 8:59 PM:

" To Deb, Maverick, Incredulous, Wildflower, etc.: I'm stumped. I've asked everyone to be nice. Though some don't believe it, we've tried to be as fair as possible in moderating this commenting. We're arguing about what will make us better people, and it's bringing out the worst in us. This story is more than a month and a half old. I think everyone has said enough. All we're doing is attacking each other. We will post no more comments on this story. It's simply become too difficult to referee the fighting in a way that anyone finds satisfactory. This debate may never end, but it's over here, and I thank everyone who contributed, particularly those who did so in positive, constructive and civil ways. If anyone has comments or questions, call me during the work week at 250-8266. "

Tiny Dancer wrote on Nov 18, 2006 7:20 PM:

" Online editor—what’s the problem? I don’t know who Deb’s referring to with her "Darrell and his other brother Darrell should go back to Sterns County” comment, but why didn’t you delete it? The obnoxious & inflammatory tone & content that your boss, Dave Bundy, is always harping about is very obviously thick as peas in Deb’s comment--she’s degrading others who hold a different view from hers by telling them that they are inbred hicks. THAT you let be posted, BUT you’ve Three Times failed to post this comment of mine—last night & this morning--WHAT’s your problem in NOT posting my ordinary comment? What is it that you want ME to delete??? I don’t see anything wrong with this comment: I asked SUSAN that question, Incredulous, because SUSAN MADE THAT COMMENT & if she's going to make inflammatory statements like that, then she'd better provide proof, or at the very least, substance, to back up her claims. Are you Susan? I asked Susan a Q, not you, because Susan commented on something that she didn’t support with evidence. I KNOW the answer. So does Drummer & ZORRO--as their posts prove. (And your answer, Incredulous, was wrong, as was pointed out to you.) And NOW--everyone here knows, too. I'm talking to Susan, not you, Incredulous. Unless, of course, YOU are Susan. When people make claims, their intelligence shows when they back up their claims with proof. When they make empty claims without evidence to support their argument, so others can check out the veracity of their statement, well...then it just proves that they either didn't know what they were even talking about OR that they lied. SO--I shall continue to wait for Susan to back up her claim. "

Maverick wrote on Nov 18, 2006 7:07 PM:

" It’s obvious that Okie from ND is one of those FAKE preachers. Any man of the cloth that says (the typos and grammar errors are his verbatim), “The other disturbing trend it the tendency to through the word "truth" around as if it is something one person or one group of people can have exclusive possession of,” is an obvious fake preacher. Okie, Christian pastors believe that main TRUTH precisely 100 percent. If I'm not mistaken, buddhists, muslims, & all religions believe that their doctrine contains the Truth above all others--especially their leaders! The other tip-off that you’re a FAKE was like a neon light flashing all over the comment board when you said, “(Sorry, folks, the actual date of Jesus' birth is unknown)”--Christians that actually have STUDIED the Bible (you don’t even have to be a “preacher” to find it in the Bible, Okie) know that Christ Jesus was not born on December 25, but sometime around September 19. I learned THAT in my Lutheran church around Confirmation time. If you were a true man of the cloth…you would have known that, too. And each time you’ve commented, you’ve painted the real picture of yourself perfectly for the rest of us to clearly see. "

Lucky wrote on Nov 18, 2006 6:57 PM:

" The comment I just submitted a couple of minutes ago will shed a little light on your memory, "Mouth"--I provided past posted quotes of Deb's, which will remind people of her true colors. "

Lucky wrote on Nov 18, 2006 6:51 PM:

" Deb said, “I do not tell the religious right that they cannot practice.” Here’s just SOME of her other comments on this site proving the contrary--- Deb wrote on November 12, 2006 9:41 PM:"I, personally, think all christians are crazies." Deb wrote on November 01, 2006 6:05 PM:"WildFlower: paranoid much?? The liberals are out to get you!! " Deb wrote on November 06, 2006 9:11 PM:"To "To Rhetoric": Your ignorance will be your downfall…Only evangels and others who take the "word" at face value believe that being gay is against God's law. Horse manure. Keep living under your rock so the rest of us can live in peace together. " Deb wrote on November 14, 2006 11:24 AM:"Holy, back up the short bus…I am weary, as I have said before, of people who wear their religions on their sleeves a la the people on this blog defending Becky Fischer and the Kids on Fire Camp (Jesus Camp)…And, btw (that's BY THE WAY, Golden Boy)…She [Grandma] does not, however, force feed me my religion and she respects (although begrudgingly) my insistence that I think it's a load of...." Deb wrote on November 14, 2006 4:48 PM…then need to be thinking that their very foundation is crumbling. And I'm happy about that." Flip-flop…case closed. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 18, 2006 6:13 PM:

" I'd like to start of by saying that, yes, I made a typo in typing legword instead of legwork. Secondly, I wasn't relying on the world wide web to support my contentions that students check some of their rights at the schoolhouse gate. I was actually relying on my law school education and legal research, but I pointed out that it was available online because I'm sure that most of you don't have access to a law library to do your research, so I was suggesting you use the tools available to you. Clearly, the web isn't always correct, otherwise you would have come to the right answer and not disputed what I said. Finally, I grew up in a small town with fewer than 40 people in my graduating class, of which only a few of us are lawyers, so yes, it would be possible to expose my identity with that information. Finally, the "bomb toting" ACLU reference is ridiculous. When was the last time someone threatened to bomb something in the name of the ACLU? Now, compare that to the last time someone threatened to bomb something in the name of religion? "

Passion for what? wrote on Nov 18, 2006 4:39 PM:

" Kristi, let me get this straight. Becky Fischer allowed a documentary of her camp to be made. It’s been widely distributed with her blessing. She’s been all over tv and radio talking about it. However, if a Christian says anything critical of what they see in “Jesus Camp” they are criticizing the word of God. OK, I think I’ve got how this works. So.... Say one day you’re watching the news and a story comes on about a group I started that teaches communal property is a priority in Christian life. It’s in Act’s so it must be the right thing to do for every one in every time. I teach the people in my group, especially children, that if they try to hide any property from the rest of the group God will strike them dead where they stand just like Ananias, with his wife Sapphira. What would you think? What would you say to people who said they knew personally that I was a great guy, that every one should just leave me and my group alone, and if you criticize me you are criticizing the word of God? "

Sage wrote on Nov 18, 2006 4:18 PM:

" Thank you, Kristi, for your honesty. I really appreciated hearing first-hand what a student of Becky’s turns out to become—not a bomb-toting terrorist like the ACLU supporters here want to scare everyone into believing. No—you’re a fine pillar of the community. If I were your parents or your children, I’d be so proud of you that I’d go hoarse bragging about you to others. Thanks, again for your insight. Also, I agree with you--Becky should not let a handful of radical left-wing intimidators to run over her like steamrollers. God’s followers are always persecuted...and we are to be thankful for persecution because it brings us favor from God Himself. "

Lucky wrote on Nov 18, 2006 2:57 PM:

" Deb lied big-time when she said, “I do not tell the religious right that they cannot practice.” Here’s just SOME of her other comments on this site to prove that she’s talking out of both sides of her mouth & that she’s angry, bitter, degrading, caustic, obnoxious, & condescending to anyone who thinks differently than she does (did I mention intolerant?)--- Deb wrote on November 12, 2006 9:41 PM:"I, personally, think all christians are crazies." Deb wrote on November 01, 2006 6:05 PM:"WildFlower: paranoid much?? The liberals are out to get you!! " Deb wrote on November 06, 2006 9:11 PM:"To "To Rhetoric": Your ignorance will be your downfall…Only evangels and others who take the "word" at face value believe that being gay is against God's law. Horse manure. Keep living under your rock so the rest of us can live in peace together. " Deb wrote on November 14, 2006 11:24 AM:"Holy, back up the short bus…I am weary, as I have said before, of people who wear their religions on their sleeves a la the people on this blog defending Becky Fischer and the Kids on Fire Camp (Jesus Camp)…And, btw (that's BY THE WAY, Golden Boy)…She [Grandma] does not, however, force feed me my religion and she respects (although begrudgingly) my insistence that I think it's a load of...." Deb wrote on November 14, 2006 4:48 PM…then need to be thinking that their very foundation is crumbling. And I'm happy about that." Prime evidence. Case closed. Can't trust her. "

Tiny Dancer wrote on Nov 18, 2006 2:14 PM:

" I asked SUSAN that question, Incredulous, because SUSAN MADE THAT COMMENT & if she's going to make inflammatory statements like that, then she'd better provide proof, or at the very least, substance, to back up her claims. Are you Susan? Why is it that you & Deb have a problem of sticking your noses into other people's affairs? You're as annoying as gnats on a gorgeous summer evening at the beach. I KNOW the answer. So does Drummer & ZORRO--as their posts prove. And NOW--everyone here knows, too. I'm talking to Susan, not you, Incredulous. Unless, of course, YOU are Susan. When people make claims, their intelligence shows when they back up their claims with proof. When they make empty claims without evidence to support their argument, so others can check out the veracity of their statement, well...then it just proves that they either didn't know what they were even talking about OR that they lied. SO--I shall continue to wait for Susan to back up her claim. And BTW, online editor—I don’t know who Deb’s referring to with her "Darrell and his other brother Darrell should go back to Sterns County” comment, but why didn’t you delete it? The obnoxious & inflammatory tone & content that your boss, Dave Bundy, is always harping about is very obviously thick as peas coup in Deb’s comment--she’s degrading others who hold a different view from hers by telling them that they are inbred hicks. THAT you let be posted, BUT you’ve TWICE failed to post this comment of mine—last night & this morning--WHAT’s your problem? What is it that you want ME to delete??? "

Wild Flower wrote on Nov 18, 2006 1:52 PM:

" It was nice to see the photo of the Bismarck mayor, yesterday, on the Trib’s online front page with the caption reading that the mayor and others sang Christmas carols. Whew! It’s a relief knowing that the ACLU hasn’t managed to intimidate Bismarck’s city leaders by threatening them with a lawsuit if they don’t change the term “Christmas carols” to “seasons carols”. It’s also a relief to know the Bismarck Tribune can’t be bullied into printing “seasons carols” in their news articles & photo captions. "

Mouth from the South wrote on Nov 18, 2006 1:50 PM:

" To Deb: No, that last comment wasn't specifically directed to you. When I am responding to you, you will know it, just like now. I don't believe that you have been the only professed atheist on this site. Thought that there were quite a few of them, actually, at least from the tone of their comments. However, some of the comments are no longer posted, so it is hard to remember exactly who wrote what. "

Arm Candy with Brains wrote on Nov 18, 2006 12:30 PM:

" Incredulous—You made a claim about your old high school & you still haven't answered the question that TWO bloggers have asked you. Allow me to bring that count up to THREE: What's the name of your former high school, what city and state was it in, and what years did you attend? Because you DIDN'T answer them, but HAVE commented plenty on other things, now I ALSO doubt your truthfulness here. So, I want to check out your claim, too. Especially after reading so many other people here complaining about how you twist and contort other peoples' comments & put words in their mouths. Or, would you rather have everyone here just assume that you lied about what you said about your high school? I would think that you’d welcome us to research this & (if you’re telling the truth) make us eat our words & publicly apologize to you…………Please provide everyone with this information—your personal identity cannot be tracked down with the vague information we’re needing from you & with a “graduate” degree…I would think that you would know this. So, why are you refusing to give out this info? "

Mango Salsa wrote on Nov 18, 2006 12:07 PM:

" Here’s some food for thought from the book, “The ACLU Vs. America: Exposing the Agenda to Redefine Moral Values”—“When the ACLU loses in court, in cases like Boy Scouts of America vs. Dale (2000), it doesn’t merely go away. It redoubles its efforts to demonize, intimidate, and silence those who do not succumb to its agenda. Keeping those who engage in homosexual behavior from membership is strike 1 for the Boy Scouts in the ACLU’s game. Strike 2 is not allowing girls to be members, even though they can be Girl Scouts.” Sound like anyone on this comment board—the self-professed ACLU yearly card member, perhaps??? "

Deb wrote on Nov 18, 2006 11:28 AM:

" Darrell and his other brother Darrell should go back to Sterns County. Anyhoo -- Mouth - I don't know if your last comment was directed at me, and if it was, I want to se the record straight. I do not tell the religious right that they cannot practice - heck, they can shake, rattle and holy roll all over the world for all I care. I only care when I see that they are trying to take over my government and warp my constitution to make this country their possession and force their views on me, my family and children of the world. I actually enjoy learning about them; as much as I enjoy learning about all other religions. The thing that scares me about the Religious Right is that they have such a power lust - something completely opposed to their "do not worship false idols" mantra. GW Bush is the worst of them all. I can't believe this great country is being ruled by an evangel. It would be totally different than, say, Joe Lieberman as pres. While he's Jewish, there is nothing in his religion that would make him want to force it upon the poeple and try to push for "faith based programs." Your faith, and everyone else's faith has a place in America- it's called your home, and your church. Why is that not good enough for everyone? Why do people feel the need to make everyone else believe exactly what they do? Why would you want everyone who goes to Horizon Middle School sit through prayers at noon, or make them recite the pledge of allegience? Why do the jewish students and the muslims have to sit through your ancient rituals? That smacks of vanity to me - and again, that's against your religion. "

Okie from ND wrote on Nov 18, 2006 11:23 AM:

" "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Or for those who do not accept the Bible or Christianity: We are all fallible humans. "

NoDak John wrote on Nov 18, 2006 11:05 AM:

" "Separation of Church and State". We hear that verbiage plopped out every time free speech with a religious content is made. I know what those individuals who call themselves supreme beings said about it, but would someone please explain to me how those black robed "supreme" beings came up with that. I know they used the Danbury text to support the adoption of the Russian Constitutions wording on the State vs Church argument, but using our Constitution as the foundational document (which it is), how does one twist the following to come up with their edict. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" The answer can be found if we go back and look at the make up of that court and examine the beliefs of those who came up with the Russian way for dealing with religion. The very fact that the people allowed them to get away with that cute move has lead to innumerable egregious abuses by the judiciary. We now have "judges" who will not allow the defense to bring testimony into the court which would prove the innocence of the accused. "

Kristi wrote on Nov 18, 2006 10:35 AM:

" Ok, I want to start off by saying that I was once apart of Becky Fisher's Ministries when she was a minister at Word of Faith, I was in 6th grade at the time. I am now a grown, married, mother of my own who has the option to make her own desicions. With that being said, I want to state a simple fact that Becky Fisher is one of the best Ministers I have ever met in my life. She teaches the 'word of God' to whoever wants to ACCEPTS that word. There is NO brainwashing included. She don't force you to believe in God. She speaks truth, and ONLY truth. She speaks from the Bible! To all you people who claim you are a Christian but are judging her...what is that all about? Does it not say in the bible that you are not to judge...the judging is God's place to do. Hypocrisy!!! Does it also not say that in the end times people who preach the word of God are going to be chastised? I believe that is exactly what you people are doing. So get off your high horses and stop critisizing this woman for following her heart and doing what God wants her to do. She has a calling...she is wonderful with children...and everything she speaks is truth...and if you can't handle that...well, no one is forcing you to be apart of it, or make your children be apart of it, now are they? So just let us "freaks" do what we believe is right. And let us "freaks" have the freedom of religion! And as for the "war" thing that everyone is so hung up on...she was talking about a "war" agaist the devil...its not a taliban...for God's sake people...open up your eyes and see what is going on here! You are critisizing the word of God! Is a war against the devil so bad? Isn't that pretty much what we all want (except for non-believers)? Us Christians all rebuke the devil, we all want to be apart of God's Kingdom in the end, we go to church to 'praise' him! I'm not seeing the problem with Becky's Misitries?!?! And just for the record, I haven't been to church for ages, and I am full Lutheran, but I still support what is going on here becuase I have seen it first glance when I was a child. Becky is awesome! KEEP IT UP BECKY! KUDOS TO YOU! "

Mouth from the South wrote on Nov 18, 2006 9:41 AM:

" Right on Flipper; One of the prevailing threads throughout many of these posts has been the intolerance coming from those people who do not agree with the Religious Right. They complain that the Religious Right is intolerant but they do the exact same thing. If that is not hypocrisy, I do not know what is. I believe that there is a God but I do not go around saying that the atheists are crazy if they do not believe. That is their choice. It is also their choice and right to teach their children that belief without someone hollering 'child abuse' or worse, at them. This post got started because someone was intolerant of the way the children were being taught at this camp and it has just escalated from there. "

Okie from ND wrote on Nov 18, 2006 9:05 AM:

" One of the most disturbing trends I have seen on this site is the habit of making unfounded broad generalizations about groups of individuals. The other disturbing trend it the tendency to through the word "truth" around as if it is something one person or one group of people can have exclusive possession of. I guess folks want everyone to be the same, think the same, act the same, believe the same. That's very scary. That doesn't even happen in our churches and homes. That's where human reason and respect come in. We all have the gift of reason; let's use it wisely. "

Okie from ND wrote on Nov 18, 2006 8:56 AM:

" For those of you who seem to hate the ACLU: did you know that the ACLU defends the constitional rights of ALL people. As a matter of fact, they are now even defending the right of Fred Phelps and his funeral protestors to conduct their protests freely. Yup, the ACLU is defending someone from the radical religious right. "

Okie from ND wrote on Nov 18, 2006 8:51 AM:

" Dear S: All holidays are "made up" but are based in something of significance to the creators. Just consider Christmas, which grew out of ancient northern European Yule and other soltice-related celebrations. (Sorry, folks, the actual date of Jesus' birth is unknown) Nonetheless, the idea of Kwanzaa is based in ancient African history and the celebration of "first fruits." "

Troubled Tribble wrote on Nov 18, 2006 3:45 AM:

" My mom, dad, & I decided to have an informal BEEG “comment party” & let everyone voice their opinion, & we’d just play hosts. But, everyone’s gone home now & my parents are in bed, & I just had to say something, too—this was a blast! And I know they’ll all go to work & talk about everything that everybody said & how much fun this was, but the best part was that LIGHT was shined on the DARK SIDE’S LIES—totally exposing them. Cool…I will sleep very peacefully tonight--oops! I mean, this morning. "

Eagle Eye wrote on Nov 18, 2006 3:31 AM:

" Thanks for shedding light on the ACLU’s lies, ZORRO, Drummer, & Tiny Dancer—you guys showed Incredulous & Susan that both of their comments were WRONG about children’s religious constitutional rights. More importantly, you three properly informed EVERYONE here as to these legal rights. Good job! Maybe Incredulous & Susan should avoid getting “research” material online, huh? "

Flipper wrote on Nov 18, 2006 3:06 AM:

" It’s too bad atheists, humanists, agnostics, & ACLU supporters don’t show respect & tolerance of other people’s beliefs & religious practices. The world would be a nicer place. Becky Fisher opens a good Bible camp for kids who want to be there & whose parents allow them to be there, yet these intolerant people commit arson, make threatening phone calls, rant about child abuse, mock the children, parents, & the minister, & degrade all of them, as well as any one here who dares to defend these Christians’ legal—constitutional—rights to keep on keepin’ on. "

ZORRO wrote on Nov 18, 2006 2:51 AM:

" Good posts, Drummer & Tiny Dancer! Allow me to enlighten everyone here further on students’ religious rights—Schools cannot compel a student to say a pledge of allegiance to a flag, if the student has a sincerely held religious belief prohibiting the student from saying a pledge or simply objects to the pledge for nonreligious reasons. HOWEVER, the PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE is CLEARLY CONSTITUTIONAL & SCHOOLS MAY REQUIRE ITS RECITATION in the classroom, as long as the opt-out opportunity is recognized. Funny…that’s NOT what the ACLU wants people to know, though, so they spin the truth to make people think the Pledge is illegal. People—I just gave you proof that it’s not. The ACLU & its members are brainwashing people with nothing but lies about our religious rights. "

Agent 99 wrote on Nov 18, 2006 2:32 AM:

" The Majority House of Mavericks reigns over the minority Debinicans. The power belongs to the people. Communism is dead. Long Live the Majority House of Mavericks! "

Rainbow wrote on Nov 18, 2006 2:20 AM:

" Incredulous—You mentioned “legword” in your comment. I’ve never heard that word before. What’s “legword” mean? "

CHAOS wrote on Nov 18, 2006 2:15 AM:

" Back to this article on Becky Fisher's camp, Becky said that Christians are tired of children not being able to pray over their school lunch or sing Christmas carols. I can relate--I'm sick & tired of ACLU RADICALS taking schools, festivals, city councils, & states to court over everything from trying to force the Boy Scouts to allow homosexual troop leaders in their God-centered organization to forcing state courthouse buildings to sand off centuries-old religious symbols--the lists goes on & on & on. It's time God-fearing Americans take back our country from these domestic terrorists—the legal way. "

Drummer wrote on Nov 18, 2006 2:01 AM:

" Good job, Tiny Dancer! I’m impressed. To extend on Tiny Dancer’s knowledge of students’ religious rights in public schools: The First Amendment rights of students ALSO permit them to have access to various books & films. Schools may NOT remove books or films (including Becky Fisher’s…) from libraries, if the decision to remove them is based on the content of the message. Students ALSO have free exercise rights, which allow them to participate in a school release time program, where students leave campus for off-site religious instruction. Sooo…put THAT in your pipe & smoke it, all you atheist ACLU supporters. "

Lucky wrote on Nov 18, 2006 1:45 AM:

" Incredulous—you told Tiny Dancer to so some online “legword” (I think you meant legwork, right?…). Man, I hate to break this news to you, but relying on online websites for research material isn't the wisest thing to do. Know what I mean? I hope you're aware of the fact that any information you get online should be verified and, preferably, double-if-not-triple-checked through more trustworsty, reliable, credible, noncyberspace means. Know what I mean? "

Tiny Dancer wrote on Nov 18, 2006 1:19 AM:

" I have to correct you, Incredulous--you said, "children aren't adults and don't generally enjoy all of America's rights and guarantees provided in the Constitution." You haven't done your homework because that's not true. The truth is, students on public school campuses do NOT shed their constitutional rights at the schoolhouse doors. Before, in between, after classes, during their lunch time, & on the athletic field, students have the First Amendment right to free speech & freedom of religion. Student speech can be exercised, during noninstructional time, so long as it's not disruptive to the ordinary operation of the school. Students can freely communicate with each other verbally, through literature, through jewelry, or through clothing with inscribed messages. THAT’S THE LEGAL TRUTH. And, I'm still waiting for you to back up your claim, Susan. "

Tiny Dancer wrote on Nov 18, 2006 1:02 AM:

" BTW, Incredulous, is "legword" a new word you invented that just isn't in the dictionary, yet? WHAT was it that I recently read about “know-it-alls”???... "

Pomegrante Poet wrote on Nov 18, 2006 12:42 AM:

" Becky Fischer said, “The sight of children weeping over abortion, or prophesying or praying, is outside the comfort zone of many Christian circles. In the charismatic community, we are very free with emotion, dancing, raising, clapping our hands." I think that’s why a lot of normal people—not ACLU people—are bothered by these “Kids on Fire” at this Bible Camp—it makes them uncomfortable, uneasy. Yet, if they saw other children those same ages freaking out—crying/angry--at a satanic rock concert, complete with moshing, Bic lighters somberly waving in unison, etc., they’d say, “Big deal—that’s what kids do.” How twisted is that? How sad is that? I’d rather have children attend Becky’s camp for a night, than a satanic rock concert--& I’m not even a charismatic, nor do I have any intention of ever becoming one. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 17, 2006 11:42 PM:

" Tiny Dancer: Why don't you do some online legal research and educate everyone, instead of relying on someone else to do the legword? If you have internet access, the information isn't hard to find. If you don't believe Susan, look it up yourself. As a short answer, children aren't adults and don't generally enjoy all of America's rights and guarantees provided in the Constitution. Also, there has to be a balance a child's right to free speech and the school's right to maintain order, ability to educate, and act as an authority figure. "

Beach Baby wrote on Nov 17, 2006 11:37 PM:

" Thanks, “S” for exposing the truth about Kwanzaa. I read about that a couple of years ago, but forgot about it till you mentioned it. "

Tiny Dancer wrote on Nov 17, 2006 11:24 PM:

" To Susan: you wrote, “There are many restrictions on the constitutional rights of children in school." Please, name them for everyone here. "

Zoo Keeper wrote on Nov 17, 2006 11:15 PM:

" Deb keeps complaining that this blog should be closed--shut down...yet she keeps commenting over & over again. My advice? Do what atheists keep telling Christians to do when they complain about the trash of sex, violence & profanity on TV: "Turn the channel." Deb--if you don't like this blog...turn the channel—make your home on other blogs, instead. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 17, 2006 10:51 PM:

" Deb: Who's this FYI person you're referring to? I've read through the earlier comments and NO ONE has posted on here under that name before. Yours truly, Incredulous. "

Passion for what? wrote on Nov 17, 2006 8:02 PM:

" On the Kids in Ministry website Becky Fischer says “I have never viewed myself as political in anyway until the film was made and I saw it through the eyes of the secular community”. I have to give her credit for respecting the views of those who are critical of what they see in “Jesus Camp”. Now, if only her defenders on this thread could show the same respect. "

S wrote on Nov 17, 2006 7:07 PM:

" Actually Okie Kwanzaa as we know it is a made up holiday. It was invented to easy tensions and make blacks happy. Kwanzaa was founded in 1966 by Dr. Maulana Karenga, and When establishing Kwanzaa in 1966, Dr. Karenga included an additional "a" to the end of the spelling to reflect the difference between the African American celebration (kwanzaa) and the African spelling (kwanza). "

Deb wrote on Nov 17, 2006 5:43 PM:

" And FYI to Wild Flower, Maverick, whomever you are: a post of my was censored earlier today becuase I chose a different moniker for you, as I think you are all one in the same person. In hindsight, it wasn't contructive and I agree with the editor's decision to not post my comment even though the rest of the comment had pertinent info for this debate. I take full resposibility. So your viewpoints and attacks are not the only ones to be censored. Man, seriously... just shut down this blog. It's going no where with people like her around. "

Deb wrote on Nov 17, 2006 5:40 PM:

" Chris Rock: "Arizona voted to be expempt from the national Martin Luthern King, Jr. holiday. All you have to do is NOT WORK!!!" THAT'S ALL!! You're getting PAID TO NOT WORK! So anyone who says that they "choose" not to celelbrate this very important national holiday celebrating one of the most important figures in not only American, but world history deserves to be called out on their not so subtle racism. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 17, 2006 5:31 PM:

" It's all coming together for me now. Tribble Trouble is Wildflower's daughter. Tribble Trouble is using Maverick's computer. Maverick and his cohorts had a commenting party about a month ago and again last night. This is why the tone of these posters was the same a month ago (see Chaos, Lucky, Wildflower, etc.) This is also why the flurry of posters have had the same tone over the last few days. They are all cut from the same cloth, exercise the same manners, most likely embolden one another to post with the same tone, and turn this forum on its head. If you notice this forum has been fairly civil for the past month or so but now, again, has a crude and almost savage tone to it. I'm not saying you don't have a right to do this. I'm just saying it's all making more sense. And, I suspect that Deb & I are the ones that have been the subject the of unpostable comments wishing us death and infertility. Jesus would be proud, no doubt. "

Okie from ND wrote on Nov 17, 2006 4:22 PM:

" To S: actually, it might not be a bad idea if we all celebrated Kwanzaa. It celebrates Unity, Self-determination, cooperative work and responsibility, cooperative economics, purpose, creativity and faith. It originated in the "first fruits" or harvest festivals of ancient Africa. "

Okie from ND wrote on Nov 17, 2006 4:12 PM:

" It has been amazing to see how people assume that messages posted are directed toward them, and how highly defensive they become. What lies behind that? Well, at any rate, my references to MLK, Jr. Day were simply in response to more than one reference to that holiday as a "black" holiday. I could give a rip who observes or celebrates what days, as long as there is mutual respect and understanding between observers and non-observers. "

To Okie wrote on Nov 17, 2006 4:01 PM:

" You have mistaken my words. I never said that martin luther king day was a "black" holiday. I just said that I do not choose to celebrate the day. I have been very educated in the history of this day. But I do not have to participate in any of the activities on this day. While I think that MLK Jr. did great things for our nation, all races, etc. I do not have to celebrate it. I believe that Abraham Lincoln did great things for our nation, but I would not celebrate his birthday or celebrate any presidents day as that is my choice. It has nothing to do with the "white" vs. "black" debate. "

Okie from ND wrote on Nov 17, 2006 3:58 PM:

" Oh, and the Buddhists also have a holy day in December--the celebration of the enlightenment of the Buddha. "

To Incredulous wrote on Nov 17, 2006 3:55 PM:

" There was absolutely no racial undertone to my comment as I am of mixed-race. I am just using that as a point! I also never said anything about not having a "white" holiday as I do not believe any holiday is based upon or should be based upon the color of someones skin. "

Okie from ND wrote on Nov 17, 2006 3:37 PM:

" Martin Luther King, Jr. Day is not a "black" holiday." It is a national holiday. What MLK, Jr. did, he did for all of us. Study his writings and his speeches, especially the last several. MLK, Jr. was a man for all people, but especially for all those of any race who were oppressed, downtrodden, and forgotten. As for Christmas: it is not the only holiday in December. Our Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, and Zoroastrian neighbors also have holiday (holy days) in December. And yes, they are your neighbors, too. "

Dave Bundy, editor wrote on Nov 17, 2006 3:36 PM:

" To Wildflower and Troubled Tribble: You've made very strong allegations in some of these posted and unposted comments about my integrity, and I believe I deserve a chance to discuss these items person-to-person. I'm fairly sure hoping that our online editor freezes to death is not a Christlike desire. There are ways to address other commenters by name in a civil manner, and there are ways to be rude without using people's names. It's our forum, and it's subjective and if you don't think we're rejecting comments on the other side, you're very wrong. You're free to host your own forum if you don't like ours. But we don't need people telling other commenters they should die or not reproduce. Those are personal and unconstructive arguments, both of which were made in comments we've rejected. Troubled Tribble's correlation between all violent crime and the children of atheists is certainly a novel theory that I would be glad to post were you able to offer a shred of evidence. I've complied with your wishes and addressed this publicly, now if you'd please comply with mine and contact me, either Wild Flower or Troubled Tribble, and address the allegations you've made against us, I'd be glad to move forward with new, toned-down comments from you. "

CLS wrote on Nov 17, 2006 3:31 PM:

" Incredulous--just curious, how is the 4th of July a white holiday? or am I taking it out of contexts. I may just be lost in all this hooplah garbage! "

S wrote on Nov 17, 2006 3:30 PM:

" Lets just all celebrate Kwanza and get it over with "

To First Class wrote on Nov 17, 2006 3:21 PM:

" What the heck is "Bonanzaville USA brouhaha?" I moved here when I was two, graduated from high school here, and returned after college and graduate school to work. And even I have no idea what you are talking about. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 17, 2006 3:17 PM:

" I only commented on the black/white issue because of your perceived slight of not having a "white" holiday. In an earlier post "To Deb" stated, "as soon as a . . . white group is brought up, it's discrimination" and then went on to use Martin Luther King, Jr. Day as an example of a holiday that people are "forced" to celebrate. If there were no racial undertones, I apologize, but perhaps you can understand my confusion in that your post wasn't entirely clear. "

Wild FLower wrote on Nov 17, 2006 3:17 PM:

" Thank you for replying, editor--you have not posted all of my daughter's comments & have been demanding she call or e-mail you. Answer her out in the open on this site for everyone to see or post her comments. You're continuing to not be fair here. And give up the "subjectivity" factor--my daughter told you how to deal with that problem & she's a new college student. Why aren't you implementing her idea--for everyone’s' sakes? "

Susan wrote on Nov 17, 2006 3:15 PM:

" To Troubled Tribble, I did name one - free speech. Also, 4th amendment releated to searchs, need I go on or do you want to just do some research into it yourself? "

Online Editor wrote on Nov 17, 2006 2:56 PM:

" To Wild Flower: Editing comments is subjective, but I can tell you that comments from both sides of the debate have been deleted. I don't believe any of your comments have been deleted today, is there something of yours missing? "

Wild Flower wrote on Nov 17, 2006 2:54 PM:

" Online editor--why do you continue to attempt to (AND DO!)censor some, but not all comments? I'm sick & tired of people (usually the culprits are Incredulous & Deb) personally attacking others & twisting their words & putting words into their mouths. I stayed away from this site for a long time because I got fed-up with your unfair censoring. What you SHOULD censor, you don't & what you SHOULDN'T censor, you do. If your goal is to turn people off from this site--you're doing a good job of it. My kid had a good idea--why don't you censor ALL comments that include other commenters' names--at least, then if they twist & spin others' words, it's not as direct a personal attack. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 17, 2006 2:50 PM:

" Sorry, I grew up here, moved away for college, grad school, and a few years of work, and now I'm back. It's possible I wasn't living here when the whole "bruhaha" went down, but it's also possible that our definitions of newsworthy are different. I haven't put any words in your mouth. Maybe you have a problem clearly indicating your point. India is not a secular nation, so, no, I wouldn't expect them to change anything for me. However, as I said before, America is not a christian nation, and it never has been, so there shouldn't be much change necessary to accomodate people of all faith and religion. First Class: I don't understand your point. Of course, "Christmas" has the root word, "Christ" in it. So I "admit" that. And? "

To Wild Flower wrote on Nov 17, 2006 2:43 PM:

" I agree! Incredulous has tried to switch around the opinions of those who he does not agree with. Because I choose not to celebrate Martin Luther King Jr. day I am all for "white" holidays. I do believe that it's very important to understand the history of this day, but my choice of not being involved in the festivities of this day is my choice. My choice to celebrate Christmas on the 25th of December is my choice! Thanks Wild Flower!! "

First Class wrote on Nov 17, 2006 2:39 PM:

" Incredulous-- Christmas is called Christmas for a reason. Can you tell everyone here why Christmas is called Christmas? We're all curious what your explanation will be. Also, as well-read as you claim to be, you obviously aren't from this area (as you told everyone you are) or you would've known details about the Bonanzaville USA brouhaha...but you say you've never heard a word about the entire fracas. "

To Incredulous wrote on Nov 17, 2006 2:39 PM:

" I am not singling out just one holiday. It was one example that jumped to mind for me! I have a choice to celebrate which holidays I choose are important to me. I don't need a "white" holiday. I don't need a "black" holiday. And I did not compare it to a religious holiday. Nice try to switch it around though..you have failed. "

Wild Flower wrote on Nov 17, 2006 2:27 PM:

" Incredulous asked me, "Why does the fact that your ancestors were Christians make you more important than people whose ancestors were Hindi?" Listen up--don't put words in my mouth--you've unfairly done that to everyone on this site, including those I've never met before. I didn't say Christians are more important--I told you WHY our country celebrates Christian holidays. When Hindu people or anyone else moves to our country they need to respect our customs. But why would they try when they watch so-called Americans debasing their own country's customs? Think about it! Would YOU have the audacity to move to New Delhi & demand that their entire country remove all of its religious symbols & customs from its history & its every day life? Get my drift? When I was in college, I took a course called "Ethnobotany" & I can still see my East Indian professor telling the class, "Learn a country's language, as much as possible, before you go to another country & whatever you do, don't speak English in front of anyone--that's considered very rude." Unbelievable! Mind you, I could barely understand her because of her thick accent. What would that professor have said about going to another country & demanding they re-write their history and stop or change their country's customs? INSANE. Stop twisting people's words & putting words in their mouths--that's what incites people to lash back in anger. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 17, 2006 2:13 PM:

" Sorry for the assumption, Okie, I made the assumption based on the fact that you said you were a minister and theologian. I agree you. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 17, 2006 2:11 PM:

" The "ACLU are communists" argument is tired and old. Why would they file case after case for freedom of speech if they wanted a communist country? Those aren't rights available to communist countries. "

Okie from ND wrote on Nov 17, 2006 2:11 PM:

" To Incredulous: we are first and foremost human persons with inherent dignity. In Christian terms, humanity is "created in the image and likeness of God." I was raised a Lutheran, and I have journeyed through nearly every vestige of Christianity, and into a few non-Christian religions as well. I have found goodness and truth in all, and plenty of ugly as well. What we call ourselves isn't what matters--so don't assume anything about my affiliation. It's about how we live in relationship to one another and to the entire "interconnected web of all creation." "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 17, 2006 2:10 PM:

" I don't understand why you're singling out Martin Luther King, Jr. Day and then comparing it to a religious break. Are you opposed to the 4th of July, Veteran's Day or President's Day? Those are the same kind of holiday as Martin Luther King, Jr. Day. If you want a "white" holiday, you have at least two: President's Day & the 4th of July. "

To Incredulous wrote on Nov 17, 2006 2:06 PM:

" No one has said that Christians and Atheists should be enemies. Christians are to love all others and accept all others. One of my best friends is a gay atheist and does not hold many of the same beliefs as I do. I will not judge him as he does not judge me. That is not for us to decide what is right or wrong. The most important thing is to let people practice their faith as they please. Which is the whole purpose of this conversation. As you have stated, you do not understand many things involved in the teachings of Becky Fisher or those of her summer camp. Because you do not hold the same beliefs as Becky, you would not understand her teachings. I do not hold the same beliefs as Catholics and do not understand all of the formalities and what-not of their beliefs. But yet, I think they have a right to continue to practice the way they have been and continue to do so. Have discussions...but do not judge those who you do not understand. "

Maverick wrote on Nov 17, 2006 2:03 PM:

" The atheists on this thread want to turn America into a communist country. The ACLU is a communist organization bent on re-writing history to their liking. If Christians don't stand up & voice their outrage--that just may come to pass. All of the United States' soldiers from the Revolutionary War onward throughout history did not become heroes for fighting to make America a communist nation. "

Dave Bundy, editor wrote on Nov 17, 2006 2:00 PM:

" To Troubled Tribble: I'm pretty sure you could disconnect from the Internet to call me if you wanted, but why don't you e-mail me at dave.bundy@bismarcktribune.com. Given the attacks you've directed at me and the online editor (some of which we haven't posted, it's fair for readers to know) I would think you'd enjoy the chance to talk to me personally. Sounds like you've got some schoolwork to do, and I've got a newsroom to run, so contact me and let's move on. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 17, 2006 1:58 PM:

" Right on, Okie. I think you and I are proof that Christians and Atheists don't have to be enemies. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 17, 2006 1:55 PM:

" Wildflower: Glad you are alive, well, and still intolerant of others living in your kingdom, my friend. To touch upon your questions, I have never heard of the "Bonanzaville" incident, I'm not related to anyone in Kansas, and I was born & raised in North Dakota just like my post-European ancestors. Oompah-loompahs could have settled this nation 200 years ago but that wouldn't give them a monopoly on how things are run today, especially when they didn't exercise such a monopoly at the foundation of the country. We are not a Christian nation. We are a nation that was founded by people with Christian values. However, they were also people with values of freedom and tolerance, which you should also reflect upon. Had they believed otherwise, we would have a monotheistic society and a nationally established relgion. The absence of those things should indicate to you that you are wrong. Why does the fact that your ancestors were Christians make you more important than people who's ancestors were Hindi? "

Okie from ND wrote on Nov 17, 2006 1:49 PM:

" Wildflower: Fine. The United States was first settled as a Christian nation--and a monarchical colony in which slavery was legal along with indentured servitude. We then grew into a Representative Democracy, one whose Constitution intentionally makes no reference to GOD because many of the men involved in formulating it were not Christian, but were Deist--a very differnt beast. Over the centuries (and thank goodness, since I really don't want to live like they did in the 18th & 19th centuries), the United States has become hands-down the most religiously diverse country in the world. And while census data would indicate that a large of citizens call themselves Christian, Christianity itself is among the most diverse religions in the world, with probably Hinduism being one of the few that outstrips it in diversity. So, whose version of Christianity are we going to make the official mouthpiece of the nation? And would we not, then, be violating our own Constitution? "

Troubled Tribble wrote on Nov 17, 2006 1:46 PM:

" Online editor—we have dial-up & I’m working on a massive college paper, doing research, in between checking out this board—I’m not going offline, basically, all day. Whatever you have to say, please do it online & also everyone will glean information from your comment/reply, so everyone will be educated. Thanks. What is the problem? "

To Deb. wrote on Nov 17, 2006 1:38 PM:

" What's nice about public schools is that I along with you and others as well have to pay for our children to attend. So I have the right and my children have the right to take time in prayer or stand around a flag pole to pray or whatever any other child chooses to do. I do not have to send my child to a private school to practice these things. If you have issues with a Christmas play (which most schools do not have anymore) then don't attend. If you don't want to see a band play then don't attend. It's quite simple. "

To Incredulous wrote on Nov 17, 2006 1:34 PM:

" No my kids have not been excluded based on their beliefs. The system was set up based around Christian holidays. However, no child is forced to attend school during any religion holiday they choose to practice. It is never held against them. And the schools have changed 'Christmas break' to 'Winter Break'. So it is no longer a christian holiday break. No matter how the "breaks" in school would be set up, there would be no happy party. Now about Martin Luther King, Jr. day. Should all schools and government businesses be closed on this day because some choose to celebrate it. I do not have that option to work on this day. So is this infringing on my rights. No! I take the day off and don't celebrate the reason for me having that day off. That goes the same for any other holidays the government, schools, or any other chooses to celebrate. So that goes for the children in school as well. Those who do not hold the Christian beliefs can choose to use 'Winter Break' as exactly that. Those who do believe in the Christian faith can celebrate it as 'Christmas Break'. "

Wild Flower wrote on Nov 17, 2006 1:33 PM:

" Excuse me??? Incredulous asks, "Why isn't the holiday break over the holy month of Ramadan?" What country are you from? Didn't you learn in school that America IS a Christian nation--that's WHY we celebrate Christian holidays. Our Mayflower founding fathers were not East Indian, or Chinese, or African--they were white European Christians! You mentioned living in Kansas--are you related to that Kansan who tried to re-write American Midwest history via changing "Christmas on the Prairie" at Bonanzaville USA in West Fargo by infiltrating the Cass County. Historical Society? Did you not read in the Forum & the Trib what happened to that ACLU loser? Public outrage caused him to resign. Good riddance. Why don't you join him? My ancestors settled this region--no one back then was Muslim, Buddhist, or atheist--ALL were Christian. How do these people graduate from high school without knowing American history? That says a lot about public school systems & it also says a lot about this commenter... . "

Dave Bundy, editor wrote on Nov 17, 2006 1:28 PM:

" To Troubled Tribble: I don't think we're communicating well. I will post none of your comments until you call me. My number is 250-8266 or 888-451-5266. I'm not trying to censor you, but we need to get a few things straight before this dialogue continues. Of course you can post using another name, but I suspect you're honest enough to be willing to talk with me directly. "

Deb wrote on Nov 17, 2006 1:20 PM:

" Incredulous - thank you - you beat me to it. Muslim children who have to say their prayers 5 times a day are allowed to do so - in private. School isn't shut down, with the Jewish and Christian students sitting idly by waiting for prayers to finish. When I was in high school, there was a group of Christian students who were a part of the "pray around the flag pole" movement. Every morning they would hold hands in a circle around the US flag pole and pray. Didn't bother me! Didn't take up my precious school time. But what would is having a Christmas play that everyone had to go see. Public school offers a secualr education. If you want your kids to have a faith based education, send them to a privately funded school. "

Okie from ND wrote on Nov 17, 2006 1:19 PM:

" To Troubled Tribble: I did not tell Christians to stop cramming religion and bigotry down childrens' throats. I told EVERYONE to stop doing such. AND I asked that EVERYONE gently guide children in loving ways. I think Jesus said something along those lines... "

Troubled Tribble wrote on Nov 17, 2006 1:10 PM:

" Susan--name those rights you mentioned. "

Okie from ND wrote on Nov 17, 2006 1:02 PM:

" My dear Incredulous: I grew up in central North Dakota. Aside from the influx of construction and power plant workers, along with a small number of Asian refugees and Hispanic worker, the there has never been a serious challenge to the dominant culture, aside from what comes in via the media. A group of clergy up there once agreed that a requirement of high school graduation out to be that a person leave the state and region for at least two years. I love ND, and I enjoy the time I spend up there on my land, but I could never live in Central ND because of the intolerance and negativity, most of which is expressed in passive-aggressive ways, or through questionable religious teaching. Sadly, that teaching, like what Fischer is doing, is psychologically abusive and self-perpetuating. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 17, 2006 12:33 PM:

" Martin Luther King, Jr. is a national federal holiday. That is why it is celebrated by everyone. And, you can believe in equality no matter what your background, unless you want to raise your kids in the Aryan Brotherhood, which I think is also tantamount to child abuse. In any event, I would almost bet that your kids have never been excluded because of a religious event and, if they asked for time to pray during the school day based on their religious beliefs, they'd probably get it. You need to look at this problem from other perspectives. As a few small example, why isn't the holiday break over the holy month of Ramadan? Why is spring break combined with Easter and not Yom Kippur? When the Christian kids take time off for religious events, they don't have makeup work because school is dismissed for all. etc., etc., etc. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 17, 2006 12:26 PM:

" Okie, I'm not surprised things are better in OK. I used to live in Kansas and came across Fred Phelps & Co. regularly. However, while less extreme, I honestly think there's less tolerance here in ND and it's far more pervasive, despite the fact that we're further away from the Bible Belt. "

To Deb. wrote on Nov 17, 2006 12:25 PM:

" Why is it okay that Muslims are now allowed to have their time for prayer? Why is it okay for minority groups to have their clubs? But as soon as a Christian group or white group is brought up, it's discrimination or you cannot include religion in school? I agree that no child should ever suffer or be excluded in a school based upon their religion, race, background, sports their involved in, etc. In today's society, there are many celebrations throughout the schools. They do not celebrate Christmas as a holiday, they celebrate it as 'Holiday Season'. This includes all holidays during that time. Schools celebrate Martin Luther King, Jr. day. Many other holiday's are celebrated throughout the school. So there have been great changes. While I do not believe that any child should be forced to celebrate a holiday they do not believe in, I do believe that all children should learn the history of all holidays regardless of the religious history to it. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 17, 2006 12:22 PM:

" Yet still no apology for the death comment... "

Okie from ND wrote on Nov 17, 2006 12:15 PM:

" As a minister and theologian, and as an adult human person, I am appalled at the infantile, irresponsible, and utterly reprehensible words being written and behavior being displayed by individuals who claim the name "Christian." On the positive side, I now have much fodder for the pulpit. And I thought things were bad here in Oklahoma! "

Susan wrote on Nov 17, 2006 12:04 PM:

" To Maverick. You said, "students do not abandon their constitutional rights of free speech when they attend public school." You misstate the law on this fact (if you were intending to do that). The law is that students do not check ALL their free speach, and other consitutional rights at the door, but they DO check some to an extent. There are many restrictions on the constitutional rights of children in school. "

Troubled Tribble wrote on Nov 17, 2006 11:59 AM:

" Online Editor: as long you guys commit to always be fair to all, I then will have no problem curbing my tongue, as well. How’s this: Dear Okie from ND, you tell Christians to “stop cramming religion and bigotry down our childrens' throats”—what the heck are you yakking about? Did you even bother READING the article this entire comment board is BASED ON??? The children at this Bible Camp WANTED to be there & their parents WANTED them to be there. Becky Fisher NEVER FORCED religion on ANYONE. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 17, 2006 11:58 AM:

" Deb, we had the same issue with kids of other religions when I was in high school. In the 90s! They had to sit at their desks in elementary school during our Christian Christmas program preparations. Then, in high school, they had to go to study hall for 4-6 weeks before the holidays during our band and choir practice. It was disappointing to see these kids isolated during these times. "

Deb wrote on Nov 17, 2006 11:41 AM:

" Wow, now this is entertainment. Getting back to the blog - Mouth from the South posted a response to me a while ago - regarding religious freedom. And I agree with you Mouth that you should be able to practice your religion anywhere you'd like to - as long as it doesn't infringe upon my religion. My mom's school when she was growing up had only Christian based programs for Christmas time, and she remembered watching the one Jewish student in her school sitting alone at her desk studying as the rest of the kids walked around the school singing carols. I use that story as an example of why I think that making schools completely secular was the absolute right thing to do. How is it fair that the Christians get a monopoly of school time and money? And teaching about religions is far different than knowing that they exist. You don't need to have a class in junior high that teaches every religion in the world. Reading about the Holocaust and knowing why Hilter killed the Jews is far different than having to explain the intricacies of the parve system or why we celebrate Purim. Religions exist, and please feel free to study them in your own time. Maybe it would be a good thing for bible study in church to encompass all relgions or at least more than just Lutheren or Catholic studies. Might break some walls down and help us understand eachother better. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 17, 2006 11:34 AM:

" Wow!!! It's not very Christian-like to wish someone death. I can't give you my high school name because this is an anonymous blog and, if I wanted myself identified, I'd use my full name instead of "Incredulous." It's ridiculous for you to threaten a slander lawsuit against us for the following reasons: 1. It would be a libel suit, not slander, because the words that you claim are untrue are written, not spoken, 2. We are simply expressing our viewpoints here, as is the nature of this forum. 3. the Tribune promotes an "anonymous" blog and would not release our information, 4. our speech is protected under the 1st amendment, 5. we haven't said anything that is untrue, and 7. you would not be able to prove that you have suffered any damages from our comments. The courts would never support a lawsuit based on the fact that you disagree with us or that you had your feelings hurt. I've had comments not posted on here before by the online editors. It is their right to choose what does, and does not, get posted, and I accept that instead of sending death threats. The things you have said, for the most part, would be protected by the 1st amendment as well. I don't seek to shut you down, or threaten you with a lawsuit, despite the personal attacks that have befallen me (more so, I dare say, than anything I've sent against others on this forum). I simply add my voice to the forum, which is the American way. "

Dave Bundy, editor wrote on Nov 17, 2006 11:11 AM:

" To Troubled Tribble: As an example, your comment to Okie was fine except that the ending was what I would consider uncivil. That is why it was rejected. I can't undo all the comments that have been made, but we will hold both sides to higher standard of dialogue from now on. As a Christian, I'm sure you can appreciate us making a better effort at avoiding personal attacks. "

Dave Bundy, editor wrote on Nov 17, 2006 11:00 AM:

" To Maverick, Tree Hugger, Troubled Tribble, Iliad Kuriacas and Flipper: I've posted your comments, even the one from Troubled Tribble wishing for the death of our online editor. I try never to post comments wishing for someone's death, but I have for you now. We're trying to maintain a civil debate. Before we posted your personal attacks on us, there were plenty of "Christian" views on this story, many from Maverick. We've rejected many "atheist" comments as well. This is a fresh start now. This debate has ceased to be constructive and has largely degenerated to name-calling. We will only be posting comments from both sides that are civil and advance the discussion. Anyone, as always, is free to call me at work (250-8266) to discuss this forum. "

Illiad Kuriacas wrote on Nov 17, 2006 10:45 AM:

" I wonder if Incredulous can put his money where his mouth is--what high school did you graduate from, Incredulous, & what year? I want to call your old school and find out if what you said is true. It’s obvious you’re an atheist and I don't blindly believe atheists' statements—tell the name & date your school did that, so people can check it out themselves.. Otherwise, everyone will know you’re lying. "

Flipper wrote on Nov 17, 2006 10:43 AM:

" I think Becky Fisher & the Christian parents of these Bible camp children need to begin a slander lawsuit & have the police seize the names & addresses of these atheists commenting here that have been slandering Becky, the parents, & even their children for months now. Enough's enough! Becky Fisher & these Christian parents need to sue the socks off these smart-aleck slanderers. "

Flipper wrote on Nov 17, 2006 10:42 AM:

" Online editor--Maverick's at work--what are you talking about? Are you going to censor ALL of our friends and relatives who don’t happen to like the way you’ve treated Maverick and his wife—censoring them, but NOT censoring the people who repeatedly PERSONALLY attack and slander them and other Christians (Deb and Incredulous)? We ALL want a piece of this comment board--& we ALL have a right to comment on it when we’re visiting him or his wife and we want to use their computer to send you a comment and they say “go ahead”—you can’t tell us we can’t use their computer (unless you’re a dictator like Deb and Incredulous). And, obviously, we all want our own cool names. Duh! Maverick and his wife ALWAYS copy and paste whatever’s posted…or not onto a Microsoft Office Word—for proof , in case they need to show someone. You editors need to be fair. And you haven’t been. "

Tree Hugger wrote on Nov 17, 2006 10:40 AM:

" This is for the Online Editor---Do you know what will help "this debate make more sense"??? The day you online editors start letting EVERYONE air their views, not just Incredulous, Deb and the other atheists. You're letting them attack and slander Christians, but you won't let those attacked defend themselves. NOT COOL. "

Troubled Tribble wrote on Nov 17, 2006 10:37 AM:

" Tribble Hey Deb--the laughs on you & the online editor because Maverick & his wife had a gathering last night & we all took turns sending in comments. The online editor's refusing to post our comments because he thinks Maverick is picking names out of thin air. They've had a couple of "comment Parties" in the past few month & there were even MORE people having their say on their computer. I’m home for the holidays, & if the Tribune won’t let us post here—big deal--there’s a whole country full of online comment boards…You & the online editor can keep believing in fairytales, if you want, but you're the butt of the joke if you do. Hah-Hah! "

Troubled Tribble wrote on Nov 17, 2006 10:26 AM:

" Hey Online Editor—Now there’s seven of us that you’re refusing to post comments from—that we know of, anyway. How many other Christians are you censoring that we’re not in contact with? I sent this comment around midnight—why haven’t you either posted it OR answered it? I REPEAT: Are you insinuating that I'm Maverick? Or were you insinuating that Flipper, Illiad Kuriacas, Agent 99, or Tree Hugger is Maverick? We're friends of theirs and we can use their computer to comment, can't we? We don't know of any rule saying that only a computer owner can comment--let us know if that rule now exists. We're not their only friends & relatives who use their computer to comment--sometimes we even have "commenting parties" and take turns, when we all have a chance to get together, anyway. That's besides the point. If there's no rule forbidding friends from using friends computers, then, please post our comments! You have failed to post FOUR of our comments! That’s NOT right! This isn't the Incredulous & Deb Show here, you know. AND PLEASE APOLOGIZE FOR TELLING MAVERICK TO STICK TO ONE NAME--he's at work & he hasn't done anything wrong. You just slandered Maverick & you need to unsay what you've said by telling him you’re sorry. He's going to be VERY MAD when he gets done working & sees your snide remark to him--when he wasn't even here!!! How RUDE of you--you had NO RIGHT to say that to him--the nicest man in the world--he'd give you his jacket in a blizzard if you needed it! Personally—I’d rather watch you freeze to death...I'd like to hear you beg GOD to let you live because WE ALL think the online editors are atheists because of what you guys censor/refuse to post & what you approve of posting. Prove us & all who visit this site wrong. I’m going to re-submit my friends’ comments, too, from last night that you haven’t posted yet because they’re at work & can’t. We all SAVE everything, you know, because they’ve had nothing but trouble getting comments posted. "

Okie from ND wrote on Nov 17, 2006 8:44 AM:

" Does anyone out there realize that we live in the most religiously diverse nation in the world?? That's right; more religions live side-by-side in the United States than anywhere else on Earth. It's a fact, and there is no changing it--unless we want religious facism. Want peace one Earth? Let's start at home, and let's start with our language/metaphors. Quit with the violent, combative language that was deemed appropriate in past centuries. Live the Great Commandment (if you're Christian) or the best of whatever faith you choose. And learn about your neighbors' faiths from your neighbors. Finally, stop cramming religion and bigotry down our childrens' throats, and instead gently guide them in loving ways. "

Deb wrote on Nov 17, 2006 2:36 AM:

" HAH! Good catch, online editor!!! Long live the Debinican Nation! "

Agent 99 wrote on Nov 16, 2006 10:43 PM:

" Deb seems way too much of a radical left—dangerous. I’d rather hang around with radical rights—at least they’re not dangerous. "

Online Editor wrote on Nov 16, 2006 10:39 PM:

" To Maverick: Please stick to a single name, it will help the debate make more sense. "

Troubled Tribble wrote on Nov 16, 2006 10:19 PM:

" I love your ingenious "dubbing" for Deb & her radical followers, Mr. E., "Debinicans"! You come up with the most amusing things--thanks for your intelligence & humor. I agree with your summation completely. I also agree with Maverick--keep stickin' to your guns! I think Incredulous & Deb are the bullies on this blog, not you, Maverick. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 16, 2006 9:17 PM:

" Mr. E, you honestly thing we'd feel differntly if this were a Jewish camp? I strongly disagree. What's bad for one group of children is bad for all groups of children. "

Mr. E wrote on Nov 16, 2006 7:13 PM:

" Let them practice their religion in peace and quit getting all bent out of shape because of a movie. The angst against them is getting quite out of hand. The truth is that if this was any other religion depicted in this movie, the two sides fighting on this board would be completely flipped. The Christian extremists would be condemning it and the Debinicans would say 'let it be.' Just my humble opinion. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 16, 2006 5:03 PM:

" Maverick: You support the ACLU's mission, even if you don't know it. Earlier, you said, that "students do not abandon their constitutional rights of free speech when they attend public school." Students ARE given the right to free speech in public schools, and this was decided by the Supreme Court in a case called Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District. Guess who represented the winning side? The ACLU. The ACLU is part of the movement that secured your child's right to pray, on their own, in public schools. "

Passion for what? wrote on Nov 16, 2006 4:24 PM:

" Christian folks should get over the belief that the United States is a Christian Nation. Jesus said “My kingdom is not of this world”. If this were a Christian nation there would be no need for laws because every citizen would be living by the rule of His love. I thank God that I live in the US where every citizen has a say in the government and where the question of what is acceptable behavior in this worldly nation can be debated in the public square but I will never let my citizenship in the kingdom of Heaven and my relationship with Jesus be manipulated into a political plaything in someone’s power grabbing agenda. "

To Incredulous wrote on Nov 16, 2006 4:18 PM:

" Quote: "but it's the parents' job to guide the children at home and educate them about their religion. If they choose not to, that's their right." This also includes the church of choice by these parents. So as their right to practice their religion and learn from their religion as they please, Let them! I as a Christian actually enjoyed learning about other world religions in college. I enjoyed learning about the history of the different religions. Though I do not hold the same beliefs as other religions, I do not judge it. This whole blog comes down to whether or not you agree with the "christian faith" and the teachings of "Becky Fisher". You do not have to agree with any one persons faith or religion as they do not have to agree with yours. If people judge you because of your religion or you judge others becasue of their beliefs, that is on them and is on you as well. The battle of "christianity vs. non-believes", "republican vs. democrat" continues... "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 16, 2006 3:58 PM:

" Maverick: Thanks for the civics lesson, but you apparently didn't read the part of my post where said, "[w]e are not talking about students doing these things on their own in a public forum." You are a bully and mean-spirited in your posts. I hope I don't breed, too, so my children won't have to go to school with your children where they will be inflicted with intimidation and sophomoric, dim-witted taunts because they don't think exactly like your children. "

Online Editor wrote on Nov 16, 2006 3:42 PM:

" To Maverick: Please call Dave Bundy at 250-8266. He will address your posting concerns. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 16, 2006 3:37 PM:

" Maverick: Actually, I graduated from high school a decade ago and we had prayer and religion in my public high school, it was just unchecked because no one chose to make a big deal about it, as it was a rather undiverse small community. I'm not going to argue with you over the ACLU again, expecially when you're such an angry person that most of your posts can't be shared with the general public. This isn't the first time your posts have been rejected for taste and tone on this forum; I scrolled down and re-read some of your earlier disputes with the online editor. And, Mouth, I agree that we could include religion from a historical/humanities/diversity/tolerance perspective in schools, but it's the parents' job to guide the children at home and educate them about their religion. If they choose not to, that's their right. "

Maverick wrote on Nov 16, 2006 3:25 PM:

" So stop harping on that (that these Christians are abusing their children). "

Maverick wrote on Nov 16, 2006 3:23 PM:

" OBVIOUSLY they're NOT committing child abuse or Social Services would've taken away their children LONG ago. "

Maverick wrote on Nov 16, 2006 3:21 PM:

" Leave these Godly people & their Godly children ALONE to worship & teach their religion in their own way. Who do you think you are that YOU ALONE can DICTATE to these people how to live their lives & raise their families? Pretty Hitler-esk! "

Maverick wrote on Nov 16, 2006 3:18 PM:

" I hope you atheists never breed. "

Maverick wrote on Nov 16, 2006 3:12 PM:

" Since Incredulous is back on her/his ACLU vs. prayer in schools soapbox--here's some Constitutional facts for you, Incredulous, Deb, & the rest of your atheist cronies, regarding First Amendment principles in the school setting: religious speech is protected under the First Amendment; students do not abandon their constitutional rights of free speech when they attend public school; and the so-called separation of Church and State does not require the banning of student-initiated, student-led baccalaureates or graduation prayers. "

Wondering wrote on Nov 16, 2006 2:59 PM:

" First of all, speaking in tongues is a crock, and most organized religion is a crutch for weak minded people who can't think for themselves and need a weekly shame evaluation. Another thing -- I saw that Jesus Camp film in its entirety and those kids were not crying out of joy or because they were filled with the holy flippin' spirit. They were crying because their emotions had been pulled out from under them by Miss Bully Fischer -- oops, sorry, Miss Becky. They were crying because they had been needlessly shamed, cowed and made to feel so bad for themselves or all the poor people that were not as holy as they were. Utter nonsense and child abuse at that! Okay, now that I've had my say, let's close up this blog! :) "

Dave Bundy, editor wrote on Nov 16, 2006 2:45 PM:

" To Maverick: Taste and tone are matters of subjectivity, so you may find something posted that seems worse to you than something your wrote. And there are at least a couple of us reviewing comments at different times, and we look at some comments differently. That's just the way it is. I've not posted some of your comments because I felt the tone was unconstructive and far more uncivil than they needed to be to make your point. Since this comment thread started more than a month ago, we've tried to get folks to be a little less nasty. So there are probably some comments on here, that were approved a month ago, that I wouldn't OK today. "

Maverick wrote on Nov 16, 2006 2:36 PM:

" Allow me to remind everyone what was recently posted: Online Editor wrote on November 15, 2006 4:49 PM:"To To Deb: Every opinion has equal value here." Yet some of my posts have NOT been posted--when worse things HAVE been posted. Please give me the info I requested & need, online editor. Thanks. "

Maverick wrote on Nov 16, 2006 2:24 PM:

" To reply to your comment, Incredulous, when you wrote: "The people that were in school 20 years ago that were exposed to all of these religious programs and symbols are the ones that are now the leaders of this country and have caused the world to go to pot." In your own convoluted ramblings of incorrect statements, you hit the nail on the head--even though that's NOT what you intended. THE REASON the country has “gone to pot” as you say is BECAUSE your organization, the ACLU, forced prayer was out of schools 40-some years ago, forced the Ten Commandments out of city parks & courthouses, stripped parents' rights away from them, regarding their children's rights, & still continues to pillage & rape this country from its Godly, moral values, which USED TO train Americans to be heroes, instead of the ACLU-minded zeroes its been proliferating the past 40-some years. You're absolutely correct, Incredulous--the ACLU is WHY our country has "gone to pot" as you say. But, go ahead, Incredulous, & keep sending the ACLU your yearly dues, so it has the $$$ it needs to continue its atheist-centered mission of taking this country further “to pot”. You convolutedly got your own comment wrong & showed how confused you really are—or ignorant—or both: the leaders we have today that were in school 20 years ago DID NOT HAVE PRAYER IN SCHOOL to keep them on the straight & narrow path...the ACLU took prayer out of schools in the 1960s. You really should read your ACLU Manifesto before you spout off at the mouth, Incredulous. Otherwise, you just come off as an intolerant, dictator-minded, radical fool. "

Mouth from the South wrote on Nov 16, 2006 2:23 PM:

" Incredulous; That is almost precisely what I was advocating except for the actual practice of the Religion. You just went further with it than I intended. My point is that we should be teaching children about religious beliefs be they Budhism, Hinduism, Islam, Christian or Jewish because these religious beliefs have contributed to much of the world's history. If you are teaching about the Aztec temples, for example, you are teaching about a religious symbol. What I am seeing in many of these posts is; that many people are perfectly willing to except other religious beliefs and allow them to be discussed and taught but when it comes to Christianity, it is a no-no. That just doesn't make sense. And we already celebrate Hal-0-ween, so the Wiccans are taken care of. Also, I was wrong on my dates. School prayer was starting to be eliminated in the 1960's in some areas. Many of our problems have become much more rampant since that time. And, yes, I can blame more violence on the loss of the Ten Commandments from the school room. So many young people in today's world have no guide on how to behave. No matter what religious affiliation, or lack of thereof, that one has, these ten rules were, are and can be a great personal guide for how to live your life on a daily basis even when leaving God out of the equation. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 16, 2006 12:13 PM:

" The people that were in school 20 years ago that were exposed to all of these religious programs and symbols are the ones that are now the leaders of this country and have caused the world to go to pot. You can't say with any degree of certainty that the lack of religious symbols have harmed our children, they haven't had a chance to prove themselves yet. Yes, there are more school shootings, but that can hardly be blamed on a lack of 10 commandments. Let us not forget that these violent children are being raised by parents that had religion in schools, too. We can put religion back in schools when we give each kid a copy of the Torah to memorize, require the kids to pray to Allah several times a day, have them celebrate the Wiccan holidays in Arts & Crafts, practice fasting during Ramadan, and have the 10 commandments posted on the bulletin boards in their classrooms. If you support one religion, you have to support them all in the same manner with the same force. "

Online Editor wrote on Nov 16, 2006 12:00 PM:

" To Maverick: You comments are inflammatory, that's why they haven't been posted. "

To Mouth From the South wrote on Nov 16, 2006 11:49 AM:

" Excellent post! "

Mouth from the South wrote on Nov 16, 2006 11:25 AM:

" Incredulous: I think that one of the problems that may be occurring with a lot of us in reference to this subject is; until twenty years ago, give or take some years, prayer, the Ten Commandments and religious ceremonies were an accepted part of the school. When I was a child, Christmas and Easter were celebrated as religious holidays. The Ten Commandments were accepted as part of our learning experience. Now, we have gone overboard and the government has eliminated all of this from our schools, etc. I think that this was the wrong way to go. I feel that we should be embracing, within our educational system, some type of celebration or learning experience of all major religious holidays, be it Jewish, Muslim or Christian. After all, all of these religions are of historical significance. How can you teach about Hitler without teaching about the atrocities perpetuated upon the Jewish people? Our children could be learning, in school, basic considerations of all these different religions. Guest speakers could go into schools and give background information, etc. This may sound far-fetched and impossible to some, but I don't think that it would be out of line. After all, days are taken to deal with Hall-o-ween, Presidents Day, Veterans Day, etc. What would be wrong with taking days, while in school, to teach about Hannakah and other religious holidays as an educational experience. This would be a much better way of teaching tolerance of other religions and cultures than banning them completely from our educational system. Remember, our government did not ban religion from our schools, only banned itself from interferring. Now, it seems that government has ignored that ban and, has, interferred. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 16, 2006 11:12 AM:

" Mr E, you said that kids should be able to pray in school without being ridiculed. I agree, but I think it has very little to do with religious intolerance and everything to do with bullying and the overall atmosphere in schools that is created by the children. If a child is ridiculed for praying, I don't think it's for the purpose of persecuting them for their religious affiliation. It's for the purpose of bullying them because they've set themselves apart from other children. It's horrible, but it's not different than the kid that gets picked on because he has braces and acne. Bullies don't put that much thought into their actions, they simply seek and destroy what's different. When I was in school, the bullies that made fun of other kids for praying went to the same catechism classes with them every Wednesday and their families went to the same church. It wasn't the atheists creating the problems. Children are unkind because their parents don't teach them to be otherwise. "

Mr. E wrote on Nov 15, 2006 11:22 PM:

" However, Incredulous, "golden calf-esque" I'll leave that to your opinion as you don't believe in prayer or religion... But you do understand the "conjunction" between them? I didn't agree with that comment. "

Mr. E wrote on Nov 15, 2006 11:05 PM:

" I actually agree with Incredulous on some of his views... I don't think there should be authority-led prayers in schools. I believe in separation of church and state. But, if a kid wants to pray before eating his malnutritioned school meal, he/she should have that right to do so without being ridiculed and made fun of. That is currently happening no matter what the religion. But why stop at Christianity...what happens when Muslim children need to pray at such required times that may occur during school? What about other religions that require something done during school hours or other times which they might be taking part in school activities? How do you reject their "right"? It's a tough question. But then again, I never needed a required scheduled time to do my prayers... "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 15, 2006 10:50 PM:

" Thanks, Joe, that's exactly my point. It's like a bunch of junior high kids with a self-esteem problem. "

Joe wrote on Nov 15, 2006 10:35 PM:

" Religion is very important in my life and in my family life. I taught Sunday School because I believe it is critical for children. But, you know, unlike so many who post here, my church does not need government support. I am not sure why some churches feel their very survival rests on having government agents lead people in public prayers in schools. Is their church so weak that they need government help to prop them up? "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 15, 2006 9:19 PM:

" Praying for the president is not inherently wrong if it's in a church camp setting. Indeed, Mr. E is correct in stating that it's most likely quite necessary and welcome during our current times, if you believe in the power of prayer. However, the cardboard cut-out of the president in conjunction with the prayer did have some a golden calf-esque quality to it. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 15, 2006 9:14 PM:

" Mouth, you're right. I think the biggest problem I have, and I think I can include Deb and my fellow non-believers, is that so many of the evangelical right are trying to bring prayer into our schools and our political arenas in a way that makes it government-sanctioned in a way that they would abhore if it were the government directly supporting atheistic views. The Pledge of Allegiance should not be mandatory in a public school setting, nor should there be authority-led prayers in schools, either, because these are inherently christian actions that are being pushed by a government actor if they are allowed. We are not talking about students doing these things on their own in a public forum. It is the push from above that makes us uneasy. It never seems good enough that you're allowed to do it on your own in any forum you see fit. It seems like you need validation from the government that you're right and you want the government to propogate your view, and your view alone. And that is not what freedom of religion is about. You do your thing, I'll do mine, but let's leave the government out of the equation, as intended. "

Mouth from the South wrote on Nov 15, 2006 6:53 PM:

" Deb: I have the right to practice my religion anywhere in my country, be it Church, School or a political arena. Our country was founded on the right to have religious freedoms and practice them as we see fit. Our government was not to interfere in this expression of our faith in any way. Nor was it meant to control this expression. This is the same government that allows you the freedom to express your atheistic viewpoint wherever you are. You cannot express your opinion that there is no God anytime you want and continue to exclude my right to proclaim that there is a God anytime that I want. You do not have that right. "

Passion for what? wrote on Nov 15, 2006 5:04 PM:

" wow: OK. Your daughter attended the camp and has a new look at God, His love, love for others around her. GREAT!!! Why doesn’t any of that show in any of the clips of “Jesus Camp”? If I watch the documentary will I see the kids learning love? Why can’t I find any specific examples of love being taught at that camp? Help me out here, please. "

Mr. E wrote on Nov 15, 2006 4:51 PM:

" Deb is not happy unless she/he has her own "Debinicans" to rule over... Also, I don't see anything wrong with praying for - not "over" - the leader of the country you live in. I prayed for my parents, grandparents, friends, family etc... when I was little. Besides, Bush can use all the help he can get. The other stuff I do admit is strange but that's my opinion. They get to have theirs as well. "

Online Editor wrote on Nov 15, 2006 4:49 PM:

" To To Deb: Every opinion has equal value here. "

To Deb wrote on Nov 15, 2006 4:44 PM:

" Wow! You never seem to amaze me. So here you go saying you question people's choice of sending their child to a church or to a church camp. So how about this.. How about we question your lack of faith and wanting to better kids and teaching them about the love of God! I would say that regardless of the ignorance that has been clearly shown here, most would agree that teaching your children "positive" things will not harm them in the future. You state that you were not forced to "speak in tongues, cry, hold fetus dolls and cry, tape my mouth shut in protest, or pray over a cardboard cutout of the president" as a child when you went to church camp. And yet you believe this to be child abuse. First off, unless you have a clue about what speaking in tongues is..don't speak about it. You have absolutely no idea what kind of gift this is. Children crying for the Lord is amazing! Showing their passion for God is amazing! To pray over a president (regardless of their party) is a responsibility of all Christians! Teaching your children to pray for those in authority is a great thing to teach them! Pray for those who you don't agree with (as we are praying for you right now!). Unless you truly know what is going on at that church or at those church camps, your opinion holds NO value. And if you have truly seen the movie, you would know that children are taught only love and compassion for those who are non-believers (as in yourself). They do not judge you for holding a difference of beliefs or faith. They accept you for who you are. I will pray for you today! "

wow wrote on Nov 15, 2006 4:43 PM:

" You know Deb I really wish people would find out the facts first. THe only thing she is rethinking is the safety of the children. If someone can care so little about anything that they could destroy property as bad as they did what could they do to these kids. Its said I don't fear what my child is learning or seeing in this church because I have seen it all. What I fear is how far others who just assume what is happening I fear what they will do to these innocent children as well. WHat kind of world are we living in that kids can't feel safe at church or church camp anymore just because of some narrow minded people. Everyone says they are new aged and open minded yet I see after reading all of the post on here that there is no open mindedness. THere is nothing wrong with how Becky or any of the children or parents that go to this church pray or worship God. It is THEIR choice. You said noone is trying to take away anyones religion well from what I see happening on here and out there yes people are. Wonder how you would feel if someone just went and burned down your kids church just because they didn't agree with it (not a threat ) but you would feel the same way others here do. Sad by the ignorance that this world has come to. I can't wait till GOd comes and takes me away to a better place. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 15, 2006 4:40 PM:

" I didn't know the Holy Spirit was a Republican? Or that joy could so easily be confused with fright, guilt & shame? "

Kate wrote on Nov 15, 2006 4:31 PM:

" Deb, How can you possibly say that Becky Fischer is "clearly rethinking it as well"? Where do you get your info?? And do not say because she is not having her summer camp. We have already been there. The children at the camp are not crying because they are sad, they crying out of joy. As a Chritian, I have experienced this emotion. So if you have not, PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT JUDGE IT!!! Maybe you need to experience the joy of the Lord instead of attacking everyone else who does. I can tell you it is the best thing in the world. "

CLS wrote on Nov 15, 2006 4:30 PM:

" Deb-You must have no idea what it is like to be filled with the Holy Spirit. I think that is what you are seeing in the movie. This is NOT child abuse! And who are you to decide if this child abuse? What would make you the expert? Just because you do not believe as I do, does not make you the authority. "

Deb wrote on Nov 15, 2006 4:01 PM:

" To WOW and CLS: you have every right to practice your religion in your home and in your church. You do not have the right to practice it in schools or political arenas. No one wants to take your religion away from you. Relating to this topic, however, it is possible that your children are being exploited to further a political agenda of a radical religious church. I do not question your ability to parent, but I question your judgemnet by sending your child to this church camp. I went to church camp when I was younger and no where at no time was I forced or even asked to do the following: speak in tongues, cry, hold fetus dolls and cry, tape my mouth shut in protest, or pray over a cardboard cutout of the president (who, at the time I think was either Reagan or Bush I). Those activities I equate to child abuse in that children as young as 6 or 8 do not have the cognitive or reasoning skills needed to completely fathom such activities. If you watch the movie, you will see that certain of these children are completely emotionally broken by these activities. And I question why you or anyone else would send their children to such a place. And clearly, Becky Fischer is rethinking it as well. "

CLS wrote on Nov 15, 2006 3:47 PM:

" Wow—You are 100% right. This is your choice and you are making the best decision for your daughter. It’s the atheists in this country that want to do away with Christianity. They have no right to tell you that you are wrong! I, personally think, in my opinion, that atheists are the ones with problem. "

wow wrote on Nov 15, 2006 2:27 PM:

" OK so I guess my child going to this church is wrong on me? Hmm ok well I am praying right now GOd gives me the strength to deal with stupidty and ignorance. I guess if me sending my child to church camp is so horrible Someone should call Social Services on me and when I go to heaven me and GOd will talk about rather or not it was wrong. I just can't believe its the same thing over and over on every blog about how we should not talk about God or have GOd in our schools or homes...Honestly what are we teaching our children that its ok what you do in life as long as this person agrees to it...whatever I know what I do and what my kids learn so I am not worried about these little comments Good job Becky at teaching kids. "

Deb wrote on Nov 15, 2006 1:23 PM:

" Wow: because it's not the kids who are doing wrong - it is you who is wrong for sending them there. "

wow.. wrote on Nov 15, 2006 12:47 PM:

" HOw do we know they are teaching love? Because my kid went. Thats How I know. SHe went this past year and guess what I would let her go again. She has a new look at GOd and GOds love nad love for others around her. So let's continue this bashing here and leave it off the camp grounds and the churchs because why punish and take away from children who are doing no wrong "

Online Editor wrote on Nov 15, 2006 10:46 AM:

" To CLS: Yes. "

Passion for what? wrote on Nov 14, 2006 5:59 PM:

" Why on Gods green earth would anyone get their ideas for teaching kids about Jesus from a video on the internet about Islamic suicide bombers. I guess that’s just an extension of the same thinking that uses a business marketing model (Purpose Driven Church) to get more people into a building for a Sunday morning shame management meeting. "

Passion for what? wrote on Nov 14, 2006 4:50 PM:

" Actually, when we talk about religion, what exactly are we talking about? Maybe I’m too quick in assuming we’re all talking about the same thing. "

Deb wrote on Nov 14, 2006 4:48 PM:

" Kate- while I heard about the vandalization of the camp, what I wrote before was Becky's reasoning for closing the camp, not mine. SHE said she is closing it because of the negative attention of the movie, not because of the damage. I'm with you - I think it's disgusting that anyone would use physical voilence to combat this issue. However, violence begets violence. Becky herself says that she wants her disciples to be willing to lay down their lives for God, and to take up arms in His defense. That is teaching and preaching acceptance of violence. That is NOT teaching love and acceptance of all of God's creatures. I think this movie and the happenings since its release have been a big wake up call for Becky and her church. The Ted Haggard scandal aside, then need to be thinking that their very foundation is crumbling. And I'm happy about that. "

Passion for what? wrote on Nov 14, 2006 4:46 PM:

" Thanks to Deb for going into more detail on the crazies comment. Thought maybe she was just trying to get folks riled up, but you never know. Now, maybe I’m crazy but I agree more with Deb about religion than I do with most fellow Christians. So Kate, what did you see in “Jesus Camp” that lets you know those kids are learning love? Whatever it is it doesn’t show in the clips I’ve seen. "

Kate wrote on Nov 14, 2006 4:23 PM:

" To Deb, Becky will not be opening her camp for several years becaused it has been vandalized. As I have stated before, she does not even own the camp site, she rented it. It is owned by The Assembly of God Church in Devils Lake which was also vandalized. I do not understand how some people can have so much hate and so much anger to do something like this. I do have three young children and even though, we are of the Lutheran religion, I would have no problem with them attending Becky's camp. At least I know they are learning love. I pray Becky can again open a summer camp soon. "

guy wrote on Nov 14, 2006 3:41 PM:

" Yea, uh is there a movie to watch here "

Deb wrote on Nov 14, 2006 3:09 PM:

" Back to the point: "Where should we be putting our efforts? Where should we be putting our focus? I'll tell you where our enemies are putting it, there putting it on the kids...They're teaching them how to put on bomb belts, they're teaching them how to use rifles, they're teaching them to use machine guns. It's no wonder with that kind of intense training and discipling that those young people are ready to kill themselves for the cause of Islam. I want to see young people who are as committed to the cause of Jesus Christ as the young people are to the cause of Islam. I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the Gospel as they are over in Pakistan, in Israel, in Palestine and in all those different places..." This statement was made by Becky Fischer who announced that she will not be opening her "Kids on Fire" summer camp for Evangelical children in Devils Lake, ND for at least several years because of the negative reactions sparked by the film "Jesus Camp". And people wonder why there is some furor?? "

Wondering wrote on Nov 14, 2006 2:16 PM:

" Holy Crap! I think I just stumbled into a tent revival. Pass the plate, will ya? "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 14, 2006 12:29 PM:

" My mistake on the grandma situation, Deb. Otherwise, right on. "

Deb wrote on Nov 14, 2006 11:24 AM:

" Holy, back up the short bus. I'm MIA (that's short for "MISSING IN ACTION" Golden Boy) for a couple of days and all heck breaks loose. First, and foremost, Mouth & Incredulous are the only people who got that I was being facetious. I was saying all Christians are crazies because some people just have to be so adamant that Christians are the only legit citizens in our society. I believe that all religions, as well as lack of religions, deserve a place in society. I am weary, as I have said before, of people who wear their religions on their sleeves a la the people on this blog defending Becky Fischer and the Kids on Fire Camp (Jesus Camp). I debate against these people not becuase I think that I can change their minds, but that I think it is dangerous and harmful, and want to bring light to that fact. Also, my "bible thumping" Grandma is still living, but my Jewish Gramma has passed away. And, btw (that's BY THE WAY, Golden Boy), "bible thumping" grandma is hardly how I would describe her. She prays and goes to church and generally truly enjoys her worship and I will respect that. She does not, however, force feed me my religion and she respects (although begrudgingly) my insistence that I think it's a load of.... "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 13, 2006 11:54 PM:

" Golden Boy, welcome to the electronic communication age. BTW is shorthand for "by the way." It's been fairly commonly used since the late 90s. I might be crazy, but at least I'm aware of the world around me. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 13, 2006 11:52 PM:

" Again, I must explain to you that my "crazies" comment was never directed at all Christians, it was directed at one or two (perhaps three, I can't rememer) posters that had been fervently posting on here, in a far tackier manner than myself, and have suddenly gone silent. I never desecrated anyone, although you have. So, please do not put words in my mouth, I have a large enough vocabulary at my disposal. Deb is entitled to her opinion and, by the way some of the "Christians" have behaved on this blog (and in society as of late), I can't say with 100% certainty that she's incorrect. As far as your "Earl" reference goes, I've never watched an episode so your sophomoric attempt at an insult is lost on me. "

First Class wrote on Nov 13, 2006 10:42 PM:

" For your information, Incredulous, you and Deb BOTH desecrated ALL CHRISTIANS and ALL of their relatives, including their own precious Christian Grandmas that are now in Heaven--FIRST—YOU DO SO FIRST!--with your hurtful comments that all Christians are "crazies." Get out of the kitchen because neither of you can take the heat. Have you seen the TV show “My Name is Earl”? You both appear to be relatives of “Joy”—and that’s NOT a compliment. Before I bid you adieu, I suggest you both should sell your cars and take extensive courses at the nearest charm school because you reek of tacky upbringing. "

Golden Boy wrote on Nov 13, 2006 10:07 PM:

" Incredulous--who's this BTW you mentioned? I checked the whole blog and no one here posted under that name. I think you've mentioned that name before, too, on other blogs. Or was it “Deb” that mentioned that nonexistent person? From what I've seen on the news and in movies and read about, it’s only crazy people who repeatedly talk to someone who's not even there--who doesn't even exist... . "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 13, 2006 5:55 PM:

" BTW, CLS, I think Deb's grandmother has passed away, so thanks for desecrating her memory. "

Mouth from the South wrote on Nov 13, 2006 3:16 PM:

" You did it again, Deb. Gave me my laugh for the day. Not that I agree with you. Just that you can be so hilarious at times. Just wish that you would put a touch more 'research' into your comments, but alas, guess that will never happen. And yes, I know, that last comment was a personal opinion. "

To Deb wrote on Nov 13, 2006 3:13 PM:

" It is usually the "crazy" people who think that everyone else around them is crazy. Maybe you should think about that..To 'What's wrong here'.. I agree with you 100%. If we are crazy for being Christian and crazy for loving our God, then that's the least they can call us! "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 13, 2006 3:04 PM:

" Just because someone is crazy doesn't mean you can't love them, accept them in your hearts and hope they change for the better. "

What's wrong here? wrote on Nov 13, 2006 2:54 PM:

" Hey Deb you are right..I am a christian and I am crazy. Crazy for my God and the truth that he brings. "

CLS wrote on Nov 13, 2006 11:52 AM:

" So, do the crazies include your family, like your bible thumping grandmother??? You said once that you were taught Christianity, but when you were older you made a decision to become an atheist, so do the crazies include that family that taught you? You really should think before you speak, or should I say type. "

To First Class wrote on Nov 13, 2006 11:29 AM:

" Well put! To Deb, you might want to find out who is right next to you. They may just be a Christian. Or maybe it's the person who cuts your hair. They might be crazy. So you should watch out! Are you kidding me?! How can you truly go through life every day thinking that all Christians are crazy? May God truly bless you. I'm sure that God already has. "

Passion for what? wrote on Nov 12, 2006 10:25 PM:

" So Deb, keep going with that thought. I'm sure you come across Christians everyday at the gas station or grocery store or the bank. What are you seeing in all those people that makes you think they're all crazies. "

Deb wrote on Nov 12, 2006 9:41 PM:

" I, personally, think all christians are crazies. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 11, 2006 7:49 PM:

" Thanks for the lecture, First Class, I'm thoroughly ashamed of myself. OR, I was referring to a certain person or persons that have been recently blogging on here, and was not lumping all "christians" together. But, if you want to take my statement and twist it to your advantage, go ahead. "

Passion for what? wrote on Nov 11, 2006 1:27 PM:

" Zorro, I’m not as concerned as you are about discerning good from evil. I guess I’d rather just focus on growing in a relationship with Jesus. I have no shepherd but Him. I’m not saying that other people aren’t helpful in this journey because many are, but only as brothers and sisters and friends. Not ever as some sort of intermediary between myself and God. More often than not the most help comes from outside the frame work of a man made institution where keeping the machine running is more important than building relationships, especially a transforming relationship with Jesus Christ. "

First Class wrote on Nov 11, 2006 11:53 AM:

" Today, Incredulous referred to Christians as "crazies"--Incredulous is not only incredibly rude, but Incredulous is incredibly ignorant--doesn't know what IT's talking about. Christians are not crazy people, Incredulous, but I believe you are for making such a statement. Also, not all Christians believe in The Rapture, Incredulous--you didn't know that, did you? Incredulous tries to come off as a know-it-all...you know what they say about know-it-alls, Incredulous, don't you? Know-it-alls never actually know what their talking about. Furthermore, other people find know-it-alls to be rude, boring, offensive, grating--plain & simple, someone that other people don't like to be around. Incredulous also appears (blatantly) to be one of those evil persons that ZORRO mentioned in his comment today that we should all exercise proper discernment over and steer clear of. To further answer your question, Incredulous, as to where have they all gone? My guess is you drove them away…the rude, boorish know-it-all that knows nothing. "

zelda wrote on Nov 11, 2006 11:25 AM:

" Remember Jim Jones and The Peoples Temple? He would get his congregants worked up into a lather, and had his own "soldiers for God". This was brainwashing and intimidation and it ended in mass suicide.I used to live in S.F.and I was there when this was going on. He courted the local politicos and appeared in print media and television. He lived a lavish lifestyle off the backs of the mostly poor, black church members. Some years after the now infamous "kool-aid" deaths and the murder of Rep. Ryan and others who had flown to Guyana on a fact finding mission, the Peoples Temple building itself burned down into a pile of charred rubble.(Did God speak loud and clear?) I do not think Miss Fischer has that type of agenda but I hope my comments remind people of the potential for the misuse of religion, especially when politics is intertwined with the message. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 11, 2006 2:14 AM:

" Did I miss the Rapture? Where did the crazies go? "

ZORRO wrote on Nov 11, 2006 1:02 AM:

" There's a lot of fakes out there posing as God's shepherds. People really have to be finely attuned to detect the false from the true Christian disciples & teachers. It's called "discernment." If you can't discern an evil person from a godly one--sooner or later, you're gonna find yourself in a big heap o’ trouble of some kind or another. Discerning the evil from the good is not always easy--far from it--but you've gotta strive for that goal. I don't believe this Becky Fisher is a false disciple. Leave her to shepherd her flock. "

Passion for what? wrote on Nov 10, 2006 7:32 AM:

" How much can you learn about Jesus in a classroom, an emotional event, or the latest “Ten Steps to a Life That Doesn’t Suck” type book? You can take in some information about Him, but you don’t really know something until it becomes a part of who you are and effects the way you live your everyday life. "

NoDak John wrote on Nov 10, 2006 12:56 AM:

" Some may find this a bit rough, but unfortunately it is far too often true. You would think that they would teach about Christ in the seminaries, but most do not. You see a lot of man centered stuff coming from them, and you will see some "interesting" mixtures with pagan rituals and a large dose of psychobabble, but Christ? Unfortunately no. They have a "Christ" made in their own image. For those who think I overstated this, I know of a "Minister" who "preached Christ" for 26 years before it struck him one day that he did not have a clue as to who Christ is. One thing is sure: We have surely made a mess of things. "

Passion for what? wrote on Nov 9, 2006 5:37 PM:

" I’m not trying to bait anyone into a chapter and verse battle, I’d probably lose. I would just like some one who has seen the documentary or been to the camp to tell me what those young Christians are learning about Christ. "

Passion for what? wrote on Nov 9, 2006 4:36 PM:

" Help me out here. I haven’t seen “Jesus Camp”. What “word of God” are they teaching the kids at that camp? In the clips I see kids dancing, having pep rallies, protesting, and getting emotionally whipped up, but I haven’t seen anything that looks like the kids are actually learning about Jesus. "

To Wondering wrote on Nov 9, 2006 10:40 AM:

" And to state that you cannot reason with those who have the same beliefs as those in the movie 'Jesus Camp' is very judgmental. That is what's wrong in this world. People like you that continue to judge others for not believing what you believe. Yet you try to say it's the "extreme religious right wing" group that judges and does this or that. Yet, you are clearly showing who is judging someone because you do not understand them... Like I said earlier...Shame on you! "

To Wondering wrote on Nov 9, 2006 10:37 AM:

" Yes I have seen the movie 'Jesus Camp'. And what is truly sad, is for as strongly as you feel against children learning the word of God, this child feels as strongly as teaching the word of God. So which side is right? That is not for you or I to judge. State your opinion. It clearly shows the ignorance you have about this topic! "

Wondering wrote on Nov 9, 2006 8:43 AM:

" This is to the person who did not identify him or herself and wrote to me: Have you seen the film "Jesus Camp"? If not, I don't think you have any right to comment on my opinions. If you did, and write what you did, you must be a part of the extreme religious right wing nut bag armada. That boy in the film is nothing but a little robot, spouting opinions he has been TOLD to have. To see him parading around on a stage like some midget Jimmy Swaggart was just sickening. To think that adults do that to children and get away with it is an abomination. If you haven't seen the film -- see it. If you have, and you have those opinions, it is no good to try to reason with you because you probably are a part of the above mentioned armada. "

NoDak John wrote on Nov 9, 2006 8:26 AM:

" "Rhetoric wrote on November 08, 2006 "we will not be preached to by the radical right" And who prey tell from the "radical right" is running anything in this country? You also said: "we will not be short changed by the Rich and Powerful" Another interesting comment. And who do you think runs the DNC? Take a guess. If you guessed the Rich Internationalists, you got it right. "

To Wondering wrote on Nov 8, 2006 4:10 PM:

" How can you possibly judge this child when you have no idea who he is? Are you saying that all kids who grow up in the ghetto around drugs and drive-bys are going to do that when they get older? Are the kids who grow up learning science going to grow up and use it against someone like you? Chances are, these kids will use all the good they have learned and make "their" life better. It is sickening that you are already judging a young boy in he will grow up "and scare you as an adult". Look at school shootings. These kids were lacking any adult role models in their life. They were very disturbed. Not by what they were being taught in a church, but by what they were learning on tv and on the internet. Shame on you! "

Wondering wrote on Nov 8, 2006 2:54 PM:

" To Mr. E.: I would, like Incredulous, be worried that in "Jesus Camp", the preacher kid with the ridiculous mullet (I hear salons will take them off for free these days), would scare me as an adult. He has been force-fed religion and lies and prejudice (even against other Christians for God's sake!) and so his mind, if this keeps up, will not be able to develop normally. What this kid is, is a performer, who has been morphed by whacko adults into a mini-preacher. He will be the type to explode, go crazy, or do something against his family, himself or his church sometime in his adult life, as a rebellion to this mind control. Witness: Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, etc. "

Rhetoric wrote on Nov 8, 2006 9:21 AM:

" Thank you all for VOTING in a historic election last night. The American people have spoken Loud and Clear that we will not be Bullied by Bush, we will not be preached to by the radical right, we will not be short changed by the Rich and Powerful, and last but not least...we will not accept lies, corruption, and the "Stay the Course" politics of a failed War. *I am thankful for all who shared my goal of expressing middle class and middle of the road politics against the hipocracy of the religious right Moral Crusaders. This VOTE was my sole purpose. I am leaving all the Bismarck Tribune message boards as a result. The average middle class American WON today! For that I am gratful. Goodbye. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 7, 2006 9:54 PM:

" Anytime, Mr. E. ;) "

Mr. E wrote on Nov 7, 2006 8:36 PM:

" Incredulous: OK. Great honest response. I am seriously just wondering. Thank you. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 7, 2006 8:10 PM:

" Yes, probably the kid with the mullet. "

Mr. E wrote on Nov 7, 2006 7:53 PM:

" Simple question. Would anyone feel physically threatened if they came across one of these kids as adults in the future, knowing that they came from this church? "

What's wrong here? wrote on Nov 7, 2006 4:35 PM:

" Dwight...Wow!! Honestly that is the most ignorance I think I have heard here so far..and there has been a lot of it.You say this " You did not use any wisdom here....unbelievers never would understand the move of the Spirit...they will use this film to persecute church people." WOW! AGAIN..It is not about "church" people. Is that what you are worried about? That someone that has seen thsi movie will show up at your church and be all I know you are a christin so you must be part of this movie so you will burn in hell??? Give me a break. How does this affect anyone? Did I hear her out there saying YOU MUST WATCH THIS MOVIE OR ELSE!! Did anyone do that to you?? Did anyone come to you and say YOU HAVE TO GO TO THIS CHURCH AND MAKE YOUR KIDS GO???? I dont' remember any of that. What I do remember is seeing a 8 year old with love in her eyes with her hands held out to God and talking with him. WHat is so wrong with that? I saw this take place in real life at the church!!! No one is forcing anyone to be here,watch the movie, or go to the church. If you ask one of the kids who goes to the church than maybe we all could learn alittle more about acceptence. I see people on here saying it's "child abuse" and that it is "brainwashing" but what I see on here that people are saying what they are teaching is wrong...hmm reread half of the comments on this whole page what I see is that instead of letting our kids worship God we should be teaching them not to accept people and their beliefs and to hate others...hmm strange... "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 7, 2006 3:50 PM:

" Mr E: Just pulled up your post from earlier, didn't read that far down. I don't believe most gay people are self-loathing, just some of the ones that are torn between their severe anti-homosexual "god-fearing" (notice that I used that in quotes, people) upbringing and their true selves. My theory on Phelps actually isn't my own idle mind reaching for things that aren't real, it's a persistent rumor that's been around for quite some time in the Topeka/Lawrence/Kansas City area and I first heard it from one of my gay friends that lives in Kansas. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 7, 2006 3:45 PM:

" And, Dwight, you should know better than to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. No matter how much lipstick you put on that pig, it's not gonna look any better to the rest of us. "

Dwight wrote on Nov 7, 2006 3:00 PM:

" Becky, You should know better than to throw pearls before swine. You did not use any wisdom here....unbelievers never would understand the move of the Spirit...they will use this film to persecute church people. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 7, 2006 1:34 PM:

" I voted for the Kenmare Newspaper to be the official paper of Ward County. If I were in Burleigh Co, though, I'd totally be down for the trib write-in campaign. "

Deb wrote on Nov 7, 2006 11:57 AM:

" Incredulous- thanks for the write in vote, but really, I don't think anyone can beat Conrad. I think that they needed to put in a write-in line for "Official Paper" so that we can all vote in "Bis Trib Comment Boards" over the actual paper. "

To NoDak John wrote on Nov 7, 2006 9:38 AM:

" Your right, Jesus Camp people are like Hitler with their twisted ideology. Good post. "

Mr. E wrote on Nov 7, 2006 9:09 AM:

" I might have to call Rhetoric "Wild Flower" from now on because he keeps calling me the wrong name. Very mature. Maybe I'm just taking that out of context. "

NoDak John wrote on Nov 7, 2006 1:38 AM:

" :"It appears you don't like the ACLU. I'm sure thats because they support everyones legal rights (equality) regardless of who you are" REALLY? Have you even given them and their mission even a cursory exam? That comment is equivalent to saying that Adolph Hitler protected the people's rights without respect to race creed or color. To better understand Hitler you should read the daily journal written by Adolph's confidant and friend Goldman. That diary was the key to identifying the Quizlings. connection to Adolph. There is far more to history than that which is put out as "handouts" to the news services. The ACLU is a worthy project for deeper understanding, just as the actions of Hitler need further investigation, and "handouts" don't tell the whole story. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 7, 2006 12:20 AM:

" BTW, maybe we should start a write-in campaign for Becky Fisher. I'm not sure where I'd put her, but perhaps you may have some other ideas. Deb, you'll be getting at least one vote from me, although I doubt you'd want to be Sheriff up north here. (Relax, everyone, just a little civil disobedience.) "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 7, 2006 12:16 AM:

" It's Rex Manning Day!!! Good luck at the polls, everyone. If my name were Mayor Daly, I'd say vote early and vote often, but, alas, voter fraud jokes aren't as funny as they used to be (pre-2000). Whatever your passion, whatever your reasons, whatever your faith, whatever your party, it's still your duty to vote. Make me proud. "

Rhetoric wrote on Nov 6, 2006 11:49 PM:

" To Mike E, thanks again for your appreciation of my posts. "

To Mr. E, wrote on Nov 6, 2006 11:47 PM:

" You like to take Rhetoric's comments out of context. If you re-read his posts, he constantly questions the reasoning of the Jesus Camp religious group by using counter reasoning. He also uses the word "radical" as a way to continually point out that their views are outside the mainstream. So quit using your mis-quotes and mis-used snipets of Rhetoric's comments. You fool no one with your lack of intelligent dialogue. "

Mr. E wrote on Nov 6, 2006 11:39 PM:

" My mispelin knows no bounds ither "

Mr. E wrote on Nov 6, 2006 11:34 PM:

" Incredulous: I'm sure the gay community would love your personal opinion linking Fred Phelps with them. You said, "Nothing other than severe self-loathing can create such rage against a group of individuals." But if those individuals are themselves gay, what does that say about homosexuality as a whole? Are you saying gays are self-loathing rage-aholics? Think before you post. Just some anecdotal evidence. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 6, 2006 10:40 PM:

" The more I see stories about people like Haggard, the more I believe that those most opposed to homosexuality lean towards the homosexual end of the Kinsey scale. No scientific data, just some anecdotal evidence. Personally, I think Fred Phelps is gay. Nothing other than severe self-loathing can create such rage against a group of individuals. "

Mr. E wrote on Nov 6, 2006 10:27 PM:

" Rhetoric: Your hyprocisy holds no bounds... "I already accept people for who they are" Are you serious? Do you need a reminder of what you have said in this board from this one story??? OK "A sampling of Rhetoric's accepting comments..."You are a SICK and DISTURBING person////You've lost your marbles//// You are sick demented (I say criminal) for forcing young children to be subject to this mental trauma.//// Your ignorance only exposes your lack of education and diversity.////Can you feel our boots on your xxx?/////How would you like it if I was a teacher and I showed 8 yrs old kids pictures of dead and wounded US soldiers who have blown to bits in Iraq causing them to cry and have nightmares" Rhetoric, you need more love in your life. "

To Deb and Rhetoric wrote on Nov 6, 2006 10:25 PM:

" Once again you get it wrong. As I have clearly stated, I do not judge those who are christians or not. I do not judge those who do not hold the same beliefs as I do. As I do not judge you. Rhetoric, you state that you are the one not judging these people and what they believe and I am. Wrong! As I clearly stated, I do not believe in judging those who are different than me. To Deb, I agree that Ted Haggert should be charged for illegal drug sales. But by no means is it appropriate or morally right for him to teach again in an evangelical church. And finally Rhetoric, you state that you are just questioning the hate and discrimination of evangelicals. And by grouping all Evangelicals together as those who hate and discriminate against non-christians is actually judging the group as a whole. It loses its value of questioning at that point! "

To Online Editor wrote on Nov 6, 2006 10:16 PM:

" ¡El redactor, dijo bastante! Yo no gastaré ningún más tiempo que trata de explicar por qué esto confunde a sus lectores. "

Mr. E wrote on Nov 6, 2006 10:16 PM:

" Rhetoric: My props was to the person who wrote as "To Rhetoric." That should be clear when I write "To Rhetoric" followed by a colon ":" And your (not you are which is you're by the way) ignorance to call me Mike E shows just that. But anyways, you wrote, "However, it is not Mr. Haggards personal plight that vindicates us..." Who is this "us" that you are referring to? "

To Chaos wrote on Nov 6, 2006 10:04 PM:

" It appears you don't like the ACLU. I'm sure thats because they support everyones legal rights (equality) regardless of who you are. It's no surprise that you would find that objectionable because you don't want equal rights, you want a secular society based on christianity. Thankfully we have a constitution that allows freedom of religion and seperation of church and state. Although, Bush and the religious (christian) right has tried to Pervert the US Constitution, we the people have decided to take back our country (Tuesday) from the GOP, Rich and Radical Right! "

Dave Bundy, editor wrote on Nov 6, 2006 10:00 PM:

" To To Online Editor: Could you explain your problem differently. I don't understand what you find confusing. "

To Deb wrote on Nov 6, 2006 9:55 PM:

" Great Post! "

To Wild Flower wrote on Nov 6, 2006 9:54 PM:

" Where is the moral voice of the religious right....Wild Flower? How come you have fallen silent. Is your hipocracy blocking your ability to type, think? "

To Wild flower wrote on Nov 6, 2006 9:53 PM:

" Where is the moral voice of the religious right....Wild Flower "

To North Star wrote on Nov 6, 2006 9:52 PM:

" Quit hidding behind your bible verses created thousands of years ago. "Beam yourself up" into modern society. .....Why don't you figure out why one of your leaders was sniffing a line of Meth instead of fairytales where people are turned into pillars of salt. "

To Online Editor wrote on Nov 6, 2006 9:47 PM:

" More Confusion because you allow people to post with a (to) in front of other peoples user names! Can't you see that?? The fact you allow this to happen is just assinign. It serves no purpose accept to allow confusion and chaos. "

Deb wrote on Nov 6, 2006 9:11 PM:

" To "To Rhetoric": Your ignorance will be your downfall. Being gay is not a crime. Gay peole are and rightfully should be considered upstanding citizens of our (and every) community. Pedophiles, as the ones you describe in your post, are criminals and deserve the strongest punishment allowable by the law. Only evangels and others who take the "word" at face value believe that being gay is against God's law. Horse manure. Keep living under your rock so the rest of us can live in peace together. Ted Haggard deserves to be charged for purchasing illegal drugs. He deserves to live in the open of our community as a gay man. I look forward to the day that he fights for gay rights. "

North Star wrote on Nov 6, 2006 8:44 PM:

" To Rhetoric--was Lot a friend of the gays that were in his city? No! God told him to take his family & leave that city of sin. God told them not to look back (wishing they could stay there). His wife DID look back. God turned her into a pillar of salt. Remember that familiar story? If you're a Christian, you should. Why then, are you disobeying God? If you hang out with ungodly people--you are no better than them...& an abomination in God's eyes. "

Rhetoric wrote on Nov 6, 2006 8:12 PM:

" Thanks Mike E. "

Rhetoric wrote on Nov 6, 2006 7:25 PM:

" To nameless poster (To Rhetoric), Of all people you Evangelicals should accept him for what he is...a Gay drug abuser. As for me, I already accept people for who they are.....as I don't push my faith on anyone, nor do I force my beliefs. You accuse me of judging others.....I have done nothing but qustion you...the "moral crusaders" of hate and descrimination against others.....And you the accusers have done nothing but accuse me of being Non-Christian! This is absoluetly Silly and ridiculous, as I am the one who accepts people for who they are with the exception of people who preach hate and unacceptance. I am the one standing up for peoples rights to equality (your not!) Frankly, I as well as many others on this message board who have fought your ideology feel Vindicated that the Reverend Ted Haggard has been exposed as a fraud. However, it is not Mr. Haggards personal plight that vindicates us (as I get no pleasure from his pain), its the Hipocracy in which the whole Evangelical community is guilty of. I hope that Mr. Haggard can now return to his pulpit, but this time I hope he can preach acceptance and equality. "

Mr. E wrote on Nov 6, 2006 5:38 PM:

" To Rhetoric: Great Post! "

To Rhetoric wrote on Nov 6, 2006 3:09 PM:

" You cannot possibly keep Ted Haggart in the position he was in. As a gay man that uses illegal drugs, it is not allowed nor should it be. Would you keep a priest in power after he has been proven to "touch" little boys? Absolutely not! Yes this does continue to happen and I do not condone one of these men staying in their position. Would you try to keep a president in office if you do not believe what he believes in? No way! You cannot classify 'Jesus Camp' as all christians who believe in one way, which you have seemed to do time and time again. I as a Christian who believe in many of the same things as those from the 'Jesus Camp' movie, believe that all children or adults are the 'Children of God'. Regardless of what race, color, gender, sexual preference you may be. I do not however, believe that, holding to my personal beliefs of homosexuality, Ted Haggert should be allowed to continue teaching in the evangelical church. Evangelicals believe that homosexuality is wrong and should not have a man in that position teaching double-standards. I do not believe he should be casted out of this church, just not be able to teach! Now on the other hand, I am very close friends with many people from the homosexual community. I do believe that God loves them the same that God loves me. Do I believe they will make it to heaven? Absolutely! Because God forgives everyone of their sins. Do I believe one of us is better than other? No way. The most important thing everyone needs to remember here is everyone has their own opinion or beliefs about others or what they are entitled to believe. They have the freedom to express what they believe. But once you start judging others because they do not currently hold your beliefs, that's when it becomes wrong! Who are you or the next person to judge someone who chooses to do the exact same thing you are trying to express on here? The freedom to choose... "

Rhetoric wrote on Nov 6, 2006 12:52 PM:

" To achristian....Sorry to tell you, but teaching 7 yrs olds about abortion by giving them fake fetuses and having their mouths taped up for a protest is "Un-defendable"! **It's no surprise that "Moral Crusaders" like Ted Haggard who pretend to live a life that is morally superior to others by promoting hatred and descrimination, turn out to be the biggest Hipocrits of them all. The fact that this head of the Evangelicals is a homosexual and a illegal drug user is not surprising. History continues to repeat itself because in the end people are created equal (but different)...There is no high moral ground just different moral ground. I hope this is a Big Lesson Learned for all the Jesus Camp folks who can use this Ultimate Hipocracy to re-evaluate their program to be a little more balanced. To accept others as all of gods children. To accept Ted Haggard as a gay man and allow him to continue to lead their church. (PS: I am not a gay advocate but accept them as who they are: Humans with equal rights). "

achristian wrote on Nov 6, 2006 12:18 PM:

" Children praying and interceding for others is not uncommon, unusual, or extreme in the Christian's world. Check out the CBN.com news today. Today in San Pedro, Honduras there is a children's national conference going on for prayer and intercession involving children and thousands of adults pour out their support. Check it out! "

Slight Correction wrote on Nov 6, 2006 11:35 AM:

" Just to note.. Ted Haggart is shown in the movie 'Jesus Camp'. Not by choice of Becky Fisher. Actually, for those who have actually seen the movie, Ted states that the young boy should wait til he's a man to teach about the gospel. This is not what Becky Fisher or her organization believes. They believe that children have the knowledge, faith, and power to stand up and teach about the gospel. Children are given dreams and visions as adults receive. So the beliefs of Ted Haggart's are not the same as other christians as well as those in Bismarck/Mandan area. "

Dave Bundy, editor wrote on Nov 6, 2006 11:07 AM:

" To Wild Flower: Your point is well taken. I have removed the comment. Actually, I have an alibi. I was in the middle of a church service when the comment was posted. "

Reverend Who Appears in "Jesus Camp" resigns wrote on Nov 4, 2006 5:36 PM:

" COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. - The Rev. Ted Haggard agreed to resign as leader of the New Life Church after its independent investigative board recommended removal, saying he was guilty "of sexually immoral conduct." "We, the Overseer Board of New Life Church, have concluded our deliberations concerning the moral failings of Pastor Ted Haggard," a statement from the church said. "Our investigation and Pastor Haggard's public statements have proven without a doubt that he has committed sexually immoral conduct." "

Passion for what? wrote on Nov 4, 2006 5:21 PM:

" Editor, sorry if we're not allowed to put references to websites in our posts. I wasn't sure, but thought I'd try it. No response needed. Thank you. "

Deb wrote on Nov 4, 2006 4:38 PM:

" Jesus Camp needs to be nominated for an Academy Award for Best Documentary Film. THEN, and only then, will Magnolia Films get picked up for nationwide distribution. I'm not sure exactly how to accomplish that, but one way is to illigally distribute the film by downloading and distributing. (I am in no way condoning this activity) If enough buzz is created, it may gain enough momentum to be nominated. And to Chaos: There are ways to disagree without being disagreeable. You, sir or ma'am, are being quite disagreeable and you really don't gain any credibility with your viscious attacks on other bloggers. "

to Rhetoric from Spiderman wrote on Nov 4, 2006 4:08 PM:

" Yes, "Jesus Camp" takes us to Rev Ted's establishment in Colorado Springs. We see him talking with some of the kids who are focus of this excellent movie. Actually, my wife thought he was very arrogant and condescending to these pathetic kids. YOu need to see the movie, but, Becky F is prohibiting it from being shown in her own community.That's why you haven't seen it. Call the theatre. Better yet contact Magnolia films. Check their website. Everyone needs to know about the connection between the kids who are being burned and Rev Ted. "

CHAOS wrote on Nov 4, 2006 12:25 PM:

" In your 3:36pm post yesterday, Incredulous, when you were rambling on about you & your organization--the ACLU--& THEN you say, "Unlike your group, my group would never tell you to shut up. They'd just tell you to make room for more because everyone has a voice, even if you don't like what that voice is saying. Anything less is unpatriotic." #1--I don't "have" a "group" so what are you blathering on about NOW??? #2--Your group, the ACLU, makes its living out of telling people to shut up--but only when they're talking about religion or faith in God & especially any talk regarding Jesus Christ (the ACLU SUES people , organizations, & businesses, every chance they get to try to make them shut up) & #3--You're a member (paying member) of a dastardly organization that you don't have a clue about what it's all about & all of the things they do to destroy the proud country we once were. #4--Did you know THIS about the ACLU? Your group's founder, Roger Baldwin, said this, "I am for socialism, disarmament, and ultimately for abolishing the state itself as an instrument of violence and compulsion. I seek social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class, and sole control by those who produce wealth. Communism is the goal. Source: Peggy Lamson, "Roger Baldwin: Founder of the American Civil Liberties Union: A Portrait" (Boston: Houghton-Mifflin, 1976) p. 192. You probably just read all of those words...but don't have a bloody clue as to what any of it means. Right? I REPEAT: Stop attacking me (& everyone else here) for NO reason. Good grief. "

Online Editor wrote on Nov 4, 2006 10:25 AM:

" If readers don't see their comments immediately it's because it is the weekend. On the weekend the Editor and I read the comments from home. Since these are our "days off" we don't sit in front of the computer all day as we would at work. The same process is used in the evening. Please be patient. "

Umm Ok... wrote on Nov 4, 2006 9:25 AM:

" I am from thr good ol' state of ND, I went to a catholic school. I was born and raised a christian. This movie scares me along with some of the comments on this page. There are comments about how this movie and the movie Fargo have giving a bad name to this state but is also the "crazy" religious people that think this Jesus Camp is a gift from god. Hate to break it to you it is not, and if it is God has lost it. "

Rhetoric wrote on Nov 4, 2006 9:17 AM:

" To Spiderman,....really he's in the movie? I didn't remember that. No wonder the "Jesus Camp" followers have went completely SILENT on this message board. The truth of their hipocracy hurts! "

Rhetoric wrote on Nov 4, 2006 9:15 AM:

" To Kate, lets look at the facts. This man has admitted buying Meth (but didn't do it) and this man has admitted getting a Message from a Gay escort / prostitue (but not having Sex). Come on....thats silly. If with the slight possibility he didn't actually do the worst case senario (and I mean slight), in spirit he has cheated the moral basis of his agressive "pro family, anti-gay ideology" making him one of the biggest hipocrits of all time. To actually be Gay or have used drugs does not condemn any man. It is the hipocracy of his Leadership postion within the Religious Right and with the weekly meeting with the White House that make this a moral crime of Biblical proportions. It's another lesson to us all that we should accept others as they are and that everyone deserves equal rights under the law, whether we agree with their lifestyle or not. To Incredulous, I'm thinking a bluff over the Missouri with a few familiy and then a big reception somewhere...you dig? ha ha (Civil Disobedience: I had to prove a point with my name to the Editor and unfortunately it probably upset others as it also bothered me when used against me). "

spiderman wrote on Nov 4, 2006 8:03 AM:

" Rev. Ted Haggard appears in the movie "Jesus Camp." Evidently Becky Fisher and her friends thought it would be spiritually uplifting to have some of those beautiful children meet the great spiritual leader in Colorado Springs. Since the revelations about Rev. Haggards secrets and lies, we know what the face of the anti-Christ looks like: Ted Haggard. Everyone in the Bismarck-Mandan area should see "Jesus Camp" is a wake up call about the ugliness, hypocrisy, and danger of this movement. Call local theatres and encourage them to show "Jesus Camp." We all should get a chance to Rev.Ted in action with those vulnerable children. "

dm wrote on Nov 4, 2006 12:59 AM:

" Isn't it time for all of those mega church-personality-worship-style-church-people to take a step back and question how they spend their tythe and their time? Face it, every 3 or 4 years you are "shocked" that one of your leaders has taken your money (or more important than your money, your trust) and given it to a hooker or something. Stop it. Find spiritual meaningfulness within yourself and your relationships with others. Read. Think. Create. Stop following blindly. Do those people really have that much to say??? "

Kate wrote on Nov 3, 2006 10:58 PM:

" According to the following article located at Denverpost.com, he did fail the test. "So this morning Jones submitted to a lie detector, which he failed. The test administrator, John Kresnik, characterized Jones' answers about the sex as "deceptive." Jones was asked only about the sex and not about Kresnik discounted the test results because of the stress Jones has been under and because he hasn't been eating or sleeping for two days. Kresnik suggested that Jones retake the test next week. Jones said he doubted he will retake them". "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 3, 2006 10:20 PM:

" He didn't fail the test, it detected some deception, but not complete failure. And, the person conducting the test (and the one that determines the results) also said that the guy was under severe stress and hadn't slept, which can impact the test results. There's a reason lie detector tests aren't admissible in court. Also, clearly not everything he said was a lie, as Haggard has admitted that some of it's true. To "to Wildflower:" I'm still parking sideways, but the real question is whether we're still getting married. "

Kate wrote on Nov 3, 2006 9:18 PM:

" Has anyone heard that the male escort who accused Rev. Haggard of having a sexual relationship took a lie detector test and HE FAILED THE TEST???? "

To Wild Flower wrote on Nov 3, 2006 5:23 PM:

" Incredulous...You know, I'm never surprised anymore when the hipocracy of the moral crusaders, eclipses the the suggested "evil" lifestyle they attack. You still park'n sideways? ;-) "

what's the issue again? wrote on Nov 3, 2006 4:26 PM:

" So I finally got to watch the whole movie not just blurbs here and there. I saw the whole thing. I honestly have to say right on Becky!! I may worship God differently but I see no harm being done here. I support children learning and having so much love and drive for God. I see no abuse and no wrong doings done in this movie or this church. I think it's the fact no one has anaythign better to do than freak out about something new or anything to do with God. Maybe if more of us had the courage to speak out about who we are and who we love the world would be in a different place right now..but who knows there will always be someone who has to make a post after me putting me down accusing me of being a republican or democratic or abusing my kids. Oh well...I am only here for the reason at hand NOTHING BAD IS GOING ON and NO ONE IS FORCING THE SUBJECT ON YOU haha ok have a good day "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 3, 2006 4:26 PM:

" To "wondering." It's kind of like a reincarnation of Barbara Kay, huh? "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 3, 2006 4:19 PM:

" Chaos: Because you felt the need to re-hash old posts, I'll do the same by posting my responses to your ACLU attack. Incredulous wrote on November 03, 2006 3:36 PM:"BTW, I obviously pay the ACLU money to support their causes, not so I can get the card. I support an organization that supports and defends your right to post these kinds of messages, Chaos. Unlike your group, my group would never tell you to shut up. They'd just tell you to make room for more because everyone has a voice, even if you don't like what that voice is saying. Anything less is unpatriotic. " Incredulous wrote on November 03, 2006 3:34 PM:"Chaos: You're point is that people should never have their own ideas and people should never be allowed to disagree over certain issues with other members of an organization to which they belong. That's a little cult-like, isn't it? If people didn't disagree over issues, change would never happen, progress would never be made, and the organization (or religion, perhaps) would be allowed to stagnate. "

To Wild Flower wrote on Nov 3, 2006 3:41 PM:

" and Chaos: HIPOCRACY of Biblical Proportions! I bet the GOP and your evangelical congregations are proud. Don't forget to imform your 7 yr old kids about one of your leaders. **HIS IMPORTANCE: "In 2005, Time magazine put Haggard on its list of the 25 most influential evangelical leaders, noting his participation in a Weekly conference call with WHITE HOUSE STAFFERS and other religious leaders. (SOURCE: www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/03/haggard.allegations/index.html) "

Mouth from the South wrote on Nov 3, 2006 3:36 PM:

" to wondering; Do agree with you. I truly believe in freedom of speech and all that, but sometimes my Mother's old expression of "STUFF A SOCK IN IT" makes a lot of sense. "

CHAOS wrote on Nov 3, 2006 3:32 PM:

" -- Hypocrites are people like Incredulous, who today on another blog here called, "Sex offender faces loss of freedom." She trapped her own self into showing her true colors as a hypocrite when she posted: "While I support the ACLU, I don't agree with them on every point because I have my own brain and my own ideas." Her own words, people. Namby pamby pansies are those who pay a RADICAL religion-hating/God-hating organization membership fees to be card-carrying members of the ACLU, thereby helping the ACLU via the money their membership cards cost them, so that the ACLU has the monetary means to go around starting expensive court battles over all kinds of moral issues & religious issues that would be better off for our society if they’re left alone as they exist--but then the namby pamby pansies flip-flop when someone calls them on their participation in the most corrupt organization in the United States, by saying, "While I support the ACLU, I don't agree with them on every point because I have my own brain and my own ideas," like Incredulous said today at 2:38 pm. on that other blogging site. I like animals, so I would NEVER buy myself a membership into an organization that tortures animals—if I did—I’d be considered a hypocrite, instead, I would fight that organization—not pay it to do things I don’t approve of!!! You’re a major hypocrite, Incredulous—your own words prove that point. Hypocrites are a dime a dozen. More power to the people who stand up for what they believe in & fight against what they don’t believe in. I don’t flip-flop. I repeat Incredulous' own self-condemning words & may they ring in your ears every single time she makes a comment: "While I support the ACLU, I don't agree with them on every point because I have my own brain and my own ideas." End of story. "

Deb wrote on Nov 3, 2006 3:25 PM:

" Online editor: did my post to Wild Flower get missed? The one where I was wondering if she is Becky Fischer? "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 3, 2006 3:24 PM:

" He bought meth but didn't use it. Wow, that's even less convincing than "I didn't inhale." "

CHAOS wrote on Nov 3, 2006 3:14 PM:

" This newsflash just came to me via Levine Breaking News service, LBN E-Lerts: EVANGELIST ADMITS METH, MASSAGE, NO SEX: "Evangelist Ted Haggard admitted Friday that he bought methamphetamine and received a massage from a gay prostitute who claims he was paid for drug-fueled trysts by the outspoken gay marriage opponent. Haggard resigned Thursday as president of the National Association of Evangelicals and stepped down as leader of his Colorado megachurch while the two groups investigate the allegations. Talking to reporters outside his house Friday, Haggard denied the sex allegations but said that he did buy meth from the man because he was curious. "I bought it for myself but never used it," he said. "I was tempted, but I never used it." FYI, people. "

To Wild Flower wrote on Nov 3, 2006 3:04 PM:

" The Rev. Ted Haggard has admitted to 1) Buying Meth but not doing it. 2) Getting a Message from a Gay Escort (prostitute) but not having SEX. (SOURCE:www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15536263/)Who is this guy kidding, this denial is obviously a lie. More Hipocracy of the GOP, Evangelical religious right. This is the same misguided agenda of "Jesus Camp" and that is why it is relevant to this Message Board. "

Wondering wrote on Nov 3, 2006 2:40 PM:

" Is there any chance we can persuade Wild Flower from posting here? "Wild Woman" would be a better appelation. Her posts are very ranting and she mostly argues with certain people instead of stating an opinion. It's like there is some kind of mental problem going on here. "

Online Editor wrote on Nov 3, 2006 2:37 PM:

" To Wild Flower: The 9:42 comments were not from the two IP addresses Incredulous posts from. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 3, 2006 2:25 PM:

" Wildflower: I did not post at 9:42 a.m. today (or any day, for that matter, I'm not what you would call an "early riser"). I bet the Online Editor could verify that, too, but you don't believe in evidence or proof, so it won't matter. "

To Wild Flower wrote on Nov 3, 2006 1:28 PM:

" Just a little correction. Ted Haggert has admitted to some of the "allegations". And yes, if this is true, it is a disgrace to his family and all Christians. "

Wild Flower wrote on Nov 3, 2006 12:40 PM:

" The channel 4 news at noon today, just reported that Haggard has NOT admitted guilt--he denied the charges, contrary to what "INCREDULOUS" posted at 9:42 am today. The news said a gay guy is Haggard's accuser--he wouldn't have a hidden agenda to discredit a reverend, now--would he??? Ummm-yep. According to the news, Haggard's church refused to hire gay pastors. Gee...THAT wouldn't let the 5-to-7 percent of the American population (gays) angry & want to strike back in retaliation at the church, now would it??? ME smells a rat(s). When you play in the dirt, you get dirty. Did Haggard play in the dirt? Maybe. Maybe not. But the gay agenda heads (ACLU supporters) are not above framing people to discredit them. The ACLU has a LOT of money to play with, too: an annual budget of $45-million, and an endowment of $41-million, and millions collected every year from lawsuits over such things like crosses as grave markers in a fallen-heroes cemetery, etc., etc., etc. "

Wild Flower wrote on Nov 3, 2006 11:55 AM:

" If "INCREDULOUS" & her other personas would stop personal attacks on people, then she wouldn't have to defend herself. "She" starts fights, then gets upset that she feels she needs to defend herself. Re-read "her" 5:06pm post from yesterday--here's part of what "she" wrote: "... aside from the fact that I hope you aren't homeschooling your kids. If you are, steer them away from the SATs. They're grammar, comprehension, and language skills wouldn't serve them well." You're not fooling anyone--you're a constant personal attacker who can dish it out, but can't take the heat--your comments don't weigh in with any credibility, anymore, so you might as well hang this persona in the closet & don a new cloak. "

Wild Flower wrote on Nov 3, 2006 11:43 AM:

" What kind of a fake name is “To Wild Flower"? Real creative. Besides that point (which says a lot about the writer) I don't even know who this Haggard guy is. Never heard of him. But, just like there are people on this thread with multiple personas--obviously, this Haggard guy is a FAKE Christian. Gee...I hate to break this news to you, "TO Wild Flower", but fake Christians & fake reverends, pastors, ministers, & priests ARE all around us. The Bible warns us to beware of sheep in wolves' clothing. I guess you don't read The Bible--otherwise you would've known that fact. Haggard is a fake--just one of many. That news doesn't ruffle my feathers, babe--hate to disappoint you! The Bible also teaches us that God only approved of two churches. Why? Cuz all the rest of them were NOT correctly teaching His Word. See...if you actually KNEW what you were talking about, then no one could make you look stupid. You did that all by yourself in your comment. Oh--by the way, to answer your Q: God is my Leader. "

To Wild Flower wrote on Nov 3, 2006 9:42 AM:

" Is this your Leader in the News this morning??? ....."The Rev. Ted Haggard, who stepped down as head of the 30 million-member National Association of Evangelicals on Thursday after allegations that include having gay sex monthly over a 3 year period. Haggard snorted METHamphetamine before sexual encounters to heighten his experience." He has now admitted to those allegations!!! (SOURCE: www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15536263/) "

Online Editor wrote on Nov 3, 2006 9:27 AM:

" To To Wildflower: You had a quote in your post without citing a source. It's hard to determine whether it is legitimate or not without a source. "

To Online Editor wrote on Nov 3, 2006 9:13 AM:

" Where is my To Wildflower post regarding the Evangelical leader I sent this morning? "

Joe wrote on Nov 2, 2006 10:05 PM:

" Back to the article at hand...which is about a group of people who want to impose their way on everyone. When those people take power in a democracy it is not healthy for most people. That includes not healthy for all of us God-loving, Christians who happen to believe differently. The very core of their beliefs is that they have a monopoly on truth. That means they will do whatever it takes to impose it. Jesus Camp shows us their very effective training program. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 2, 2006 9:39 PM:

" Thank you for weighing in Mouth. I would rather get back to the issues, as well, instead of spending time defending myself. Mr E: Thank you, it was a joke. I thought I'd put in a little "what's wrong with this sentence" quiz for the grammatically-impaired posters. "

Mouth from the South wrote on Nov 2, 2006 5:36 PM:

" I know I may be sounding more ignorant then usual, but what's the big deal about someone posting under several different names? Is there some kind of contest going on that the majority opinion will win a prize? And if so, where do I sign up? I usually enjoy these posts, but when people start calling each other names and start beating on someone else, It gets boring rather quickly. So, would be great to get back to the real subject of this post or at the very least, some type of subject. Debates are great, name calling not so great. "

Mr. E wrote on Nov 2, 2006 5:17 PM:

" Incredulous: I hope your last sentence in the 5:06 post was a joke. "They're grammar..." If so, good one, if not, how stupider of you. "

CHAOS wrote on Nov 2, 2006 5:11 PM:

" Good job on your last post, Un-Incredulous! Glad you said that! "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 2, 2006 5:09 PM:

" Wildflower: My previous post contains at least one grammatical error in it. Can you find it? "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 2, 2006 5:06 PM:

" Rhetoric is male, I am female, Deb is female, and I'm not sure about the "others" you lump us together with. I don't personally know Rhetoric, but I know from his posts that he's male. And, you claim that "we" contradict "ourselves." Hmmm, why would that be? Could it be because we're different people? BTW, Dave Bundy didn't say he thought you were right about the fact that we're the same people. He said you were right that other people could post under more than one IP address. However, it's been made clear to you by the editors that we are not the same people. You've ruined your own credibility by your ranting and raving, though, so I shouldn't have to say much more, aside from the fact that I hope you aren't homeschooling your kids. If you are, steer them away from the SATs. They're grammar, comprehension, and language skills wouldn't serve them well. "

CHAOS wrote on Nov 2, 2006 4:40 PM:

" Once again, Mr.E has pinned the nail on the head. If the people opposing this Bible camp want equal rights in this country--they'd better shut their mouths on this issue, otherwise they're acting like Hitler. Tit for tat & all of that. 11/2-4:33pm "

CHAOS wrote on Nov 2, 2006 4:38 PM:

" Left Wing Radicals create all of these multiple personalities online, so people THINK there's more of "them" than "normal" people. Trouble is--"they" haven't figured out just how to tamper with national polls--& THOSE prove over & over gain that "normal" people are in the vast majority--around 85-87 percent of Americans are normal, God-fearing people. "

Wild Flower wrote on Nov 2, 2006 4:08 PM:

" The Radical Left with their insults, name-callings, & other "fighting words" of implying quite directly, at times, that everyday Christians are equally as dangerous to America & Americans as 9/11 terrorists is appalling. THAT's when people like "RHETORIC" & all of her other personas can't take the heat of the fire they've started, turning it into a blazing bonfire...& that's when "they" run away whining, complaining, threatening, & sulking. After a recuperation break, "they" will come back--armed & even more repulsive to normal, patriotic, God-fearing Americans. "

Wild FLower wrote on Nov 2, 2006 3:52 PM:

" “RHETORIC” (and her other personas) continually antagonized everyone here with her barrage of insults & illogical utterings day after day, but when "she" went too far & everyone finally got sick of it & started attacking her right back, well, "the girl" just couldn't take it & finally snapped--I knew "she" would, eventually, cuz her RADICAL rants & raves & LIES about Christians didn't have any substance. "She" could certainly dish it out--but "she" definitely couldn't take it. Online editor—you zapped all the fun out of the thread when you “forbid” me to call “her” by a non-vulgar nickname I dreamed-up specifically for “her”--no one’s names here are even real, anyway! So, I don't see what the big deal. Thanks. What a kill-joy. "

Mr. E wrote on Nov 2, 2006 3:14 PM:

" Chavez: I respect your post and your opinion. I don't like being lumped in with the extreme Religious Right. You said: "The point is that our nation was created as a secular state, with full freedom of religion for all." Then shouldn't this church be included in that statement as long as they aren't abusing children? (So far no charges have been filed.) Once again, I feel I have to add that I am not associated nor do I support this church/camp. And let's not start using Biblical references to support your opinion, otherwise we'll have yet another scripture verse war going on as I could easily throw some right back. That has been a problem with people twisting the Word to whatever they want it to represent. Your sentence of "There has emerged in the Religious Right a streak of meanness and self-righteousness that is willing to condemn the rest of the world to hell for daring to disagree with it" could equally refer to the far left as well (if they believed in hell). "

Wild Flower wrote on Nov 2, 2006 3:03 PM:

" HEY--I just thought of something--"RHETORIC" left in such a huff that she forgot to say goodbye to ME. What's up with THAT--I was her #1 fan! "

Online Editor wrote on Nov 2, 2006 3:02 PM:

" To Wild Flower: Dave Bundy is my boss. I talked to him about the situation before I posted my comment asking you not to use your "hybrid" name. He and I are in complete agreement on this. As I stated before, I let it go for awhile, but now I think you should go back to using their chosen names. "

Wild Flower wrote on Nov 2, 2006 3:00 PM:

" *** Everybody-- Here follows TWO postings that were on another story's thread. One from me to the online editor, & his reply back to me. Dave Bundy is also like the head-honcho editor & HE didn't have a problem with "Debulouswarh"--so why are YOU pulling rank & telling me I can't call "her" that nickname--especially when I have a logical reason for doing so? Here follows the two posts for EVERYBODY to read: *** Wild Flower wrote on October 31, 2006 11:16 PM: "Online Editor--It is not possible that one could be blogging on one site, using different names, FROM different computers (home, work, college computer lab, public library, mom & dad's house, boyfriend's house, best friend's house, etc.) even from different towns??? I know Detroit Lakes residents that teach NDSU in Fargo courses & they commute every single day between those two towns in two states. In the town I live in--nearly everyone commutes to other towns to work or school--I know people who live here, but work in FIVE different towns... . Mestillthinks there's a Debulouswarh. Please reply. Thanks!" *** Dave Bundy, editor wrote on November 01, 2006 6:50 AM: "To Wildflower: The online editor is out for a while so I'll respond. I think you're right. But we've had some prior contact with at least one of these people, so I don't believe they're all the same. But you're right, someone could use multiple computers in a day and different names and have different IP addresses." *** I rest my case. "

Online Editor wrote on Nov 2, 2006 2:56 PM:

" To Wild Flower: The request to stop using your "hybrid" name isn't from Deb, or any other reader, it's from me. I let it go for awhile, but I'm tired of it now and feel that it certainly isn't adding anything to the debate. I appreciate that you are reading and commenting. "

Chavez wrote on Nov 2, 2006 2:29 PM:

" What seems to have been lost as these blogs multiply is that contemporary conservative Chrsitianity has turned decidedly militant. No longer is it "the meek shall inherit the earth" but rather the drumbeat and trumpet sound of "Onward Christian Soldiers". This movie is reflective of that change, and frankly it is a frightening transition to behold. There has emerged in the Religious Right a streak of meanness and self-righteousness that is willing to condemn the rest of the world to hell for daring to disagree with it. This "turn or burn" attitude has added a new shrillness and ugliness to the campaigns, and incidently to those conservative Christians posting here. The point is that our nation was created as a secular state, with full freedom of religion for all. That doesn't mean nor indeed was it ever intended that Christianity would hold sway, merely that it would be allowed to practice without state interference. There is no doubt that Chrsitianity played a role in the development of the United States, but that doesn't mean that it was supposed to govern it. Those who would suggest that there is no separation of church and state do not understand this: they want nothing less than control of the levers of state power to force the nation "Back to God" and if that means marginalizing many to do that, they have no problem with doing so. The galling self-importance the Religious Right exhibits stands in stark contrast to the gentle Carpenter from Nazareth who said "Come unto Me all ye who are weary, and I will give you rest". To the modern Religious Right, if Christ had spoken to them the words "Ye who are without sin, let him cast the first stone" they would have doubtless pelted Him and the accused adultress with rocks. Shame! "

Online Editor wrote on Nov 2, 2006 2:25 PM:

" To Wildflower: If you want to address people, please use the names they have chosen to use. The name "Debulouswarh" is unacceptable. "

Wild Flower wrote on Nov 2, 2006 2:10 PM:

" Hey, Mr.E...That was a nice send-off you gave to Debulouswarh. I luv your sense of humor! I, also, luv that you got the last word in with her in such a befitting way...so cool! "

Deb's Mom wrote on Nov 2, 2006 2:06 PM:

" I can state unequivocally that Deb is only one person because I birthed her, and her birth certificate reads "Single Birth". Also, I have a degree in English, and I can tell you that I know that Deb is Deb when she writes because her sentence structure and other grammatic constructions are consistent, along with her logic. End of argument. "

Wild FLower wrote on Nov 2, 2006 2:03 PM:

" Uh-oh...at 1:41pm today, Debulouswarh, bid a fond farewell to this thread. You all know what that means—she’s going to re-emerge here with a NEW alter ego identity. Cuz, you KNOW she's compelled to know what people are saying about her...& you KNOW she won't be able to keep her mouth shut! Cool, huh? I'll get to be creative, again, with dreaming up a new nickname for her--I mean, "them." "

Mr. E wrote on Nov 2, 2006 1:59 PM:

" Rhetoric: Good luck to you too. Have a Happy Thanksgiving and a Merry Christmas!! "

Wild Flower wrote on Nov 2, 2006 1:50 PM:

" Dear Debulouswarh...I'd LUV to watch you pounding on your computer keys with crazy eyes & illogical mutterings spewing from your lemon-pursed lips as you write your little ditties here about conspiracy theories--screaming for attention!!! No one takes you seriously, girl--you're hilarious!!! We ALL would want to watch "The Debulouswarh War"--wouldn't we, gang? Now THAT would be a TV comedy worth watching!!! Don't let us all down, Debulouswarh--keep up the good work of de-stressing us all with your RADICAL rantings & ravings! You're the reason I "tune-in" to this "station" in bitterly cold Bismarck, North Dakota!!! But, I think I could only handle a 1/2-hour TV show of "The Debulouswarh War" cuz two-straight hours of that madness would give me a headache...know what I mean? "

Rhetoric wrote on Nov 2, 2006 1:41 PM:

" To Mr. E., No interest in responding anymore to your kind. "Where my Words fail, the Movie will Speak"! See you at the VOTING polls where the American people (at least outside of ND) are going to put an end to this religious right regime by taking back the house of representatives and hopefully the senate. Goodbye on this message board Mr. E....good luck in the polls! "

Mr. E wrote on Nov 2, 2006 12:27 PM:

" NDr: The name of the film is "Jesus Camp" which is what the film makers, production or whoever chose. It is not the name of Becky's camp. Aside from that, I actually agree with a lot of what you wrote in your 8:47 post, contrary to what Rhetoric says. "

Mr. E wrote on Nov 2, 2006 12:08 PM:

" Rhetoric, you're losing it so just calm down. I haven't been the one throwing out the verbal insults. Read my post from November 01, 2006 1:03 PM. Those are all YOUR comments that have appeared throughout this board. I have never once said anything negative about someone being non-christian. You and NDr and everyone have the right to believe whatever you want to believe. And are you serious NDr "these people are no better than the Moslem extremists we are fighting around the world." I don't see any Jesus Camp kids with automatic weapons and suicide bombs strapped around their waists. Talk about taking it to the extreme, or should I say RADICAL, Rhetoric. And I also would not have a probelm if Child Protection Services did an investigation on this group. "

Rhetoric wrote on Nov 2, 2006 11:12 AM:

" To NDr, thank you for your wise words. But, brace yourself, your about to be verbally assaulted by Mr. E and Wild Flower for being a non-christian. They may accuse you of vandalising the "Jesus Camp" property and call for an FBI investigation of you. You will also be accused of being the same person as Deb, Incredulous, myself (Rhetoric) and others. "

Rhetoric wrote on Nov 2, 2006 11:02 AM:

" Everyone, don't let these conspiracy theorists CHANGE THE SUBJECT, which they are clearly trying to do. They want you all to believe they are real christians like many of us are, which they ARE NOT. They don't want Bismarck residents to see this movie because they KNOW they are WRONG for what they are teaching their children. The only investigation that should take place is by Child Abuse Services. Investigate the people who oppose your "Jesus Camp" and church?.....that's about 99.99% of all Americans! "

Mr. E wrote on Nov 2, 2006 9:26 AM:

" Wow Wild Flower, thanks for the kind words. As for the topic at hand, it's strange how much in common Rhetoric and others have with these Jesus Campists - The thought process that it is their way or no way. "

NDr wrote on Nov 2, 2006 8:47 AM:

" Like I've said before, these people are no better than the Moslem extremists we are fighting around the world. How dare they call it "Jesus Camp"? Did not our God put Jesus on this earth to show us how to live our lives? One needs to only look at how we've been taught that he did live his life to realize these people are not teaching what he taught. Did not Jesus take in the poor, the gays, and all other kinds of sinners? He lead by example. He had the power to force his will on EVERY single one of them. He did not. Anyone who teaches what these people are teaching does not have my God's blessing. These people only teach bigotry and hatred. The very things Jesus DID NOT stand for!!! "

Wild Flower wrote on Nov 2, 2006 12:24 AM:

" Regarding your Nov. 1 posts at 11:42am, 12:36pm, 1:03pm, 2:45pm, & 5:03 pm, Mr. E--good job! If you were my employee, I'd give you a raise, or at least a bonus, for making Debulous eat her words. Something tells me your words will go flying right over Debulouswarh's head, though, if you know what I mean. She rants & raves & doesn't even know what she's saying most of the time--she's constantly contradicting herself. Doesn't seem too stable. Scary. I think the police should get involved here & track down these radical Christian-haters on this these blogs & investigate them--thoroughly--by their RADICAL ravings. If I was the FBI, I'd check these radical left-wingers' alibis for when the Jesus Camp vandalism took place. There's SO much extreme, RADICAL hatred for Christians & Jesus Campists here--they'd be my first suspects to investigate--overtly & covertly. By the way, Mr. E, I luv the punningness of your alter ego's nickname. How terribly clever of you, darlin! I luv it! Please keep Debulouswarh on her toes, like you have been. I've never laughed so hard! What a hoot! Clever. It's...almost magical--like a marionette & his doll. Keep pulling Debulouswarh's strings & making her accountable for her words. "

Wild Flower wrote on Nov 1, 2006 11:30 PM:

" Dave Bundy--regarding your 6:50 am on Nov.1 reply to me...thanks, babe! "

Wild Flower wrote on Nov 1, 2006 11:16 PM:

" I guess you don't even vaguely comprehend the concept of tongue-in-cheek, huh, Debulouswarh? I'm 99 percent sure you consist of four personas, Debulouswrh, due to simple observations. Several other people have already figured out there's two of you in that body--I'm sure there's four of you. But, paranoid? Don't you get it when people laugh at you versus with you? I think your four personalities are an absolute HOOT!!! Please don't leave us. CHAOS is right--you ARE better than TV! "

Deb wrote on Nov 1, 2006 6:05 PM:

" WildFlower: paranoid much?? The liberals are out to get you!! "

Rhetoric wrote on Nov 1, 2006 5:16 PM:

" To Kate, I'm sorry to hear that someone has vandalized the property of the camp where the movie was made. Although, I'm no supporter of the camp, I am no advocate of any violence or destruction. That being said, I still think the people of Bismarck have the right to view this movie and are being unfairly quarranteened. "

Rhetoric wrote on Nov 1, 2006 5:11 PM:

" Well said Incredulous, I agree on that topic as I know many who get together on these dates specifically because its the one time each year that we can all spend with family. "

Mr. E wrote on Nov 1, 2006 5:03 PM:

" Rhetoric: What are talking about now in your ramblings?? Proud of what I'm teaching? What the heck am I teaching? How many times do I have to say I don't support this camp? Are you that thick-headed to keep posting the same thing over and over again once you've been put into a box? Becky said she didn't want it shown because of all the vandalism and hatred she and the camp have received recently. Do YOU know anything about that. Those individuals sure showed a lot of tolerance, didn't they? Now I don't know if what she is saying about not showing the movie is true and I really don't care. I can wait a few more weeks and pick it up on video. What do you own a movie theatre and need the revenue?? "

Kate wrote on Nov 1, 2006 4:57 PM:

" Have you not heard about the vandalism done to the camp site where Jesus Camp was filmed? The site was not even owned by Becky Fisher. The property belonged to the Assembly of God Church in Devils Lake which was also vandailized. For the safety of the children, Becky does not want the same vadalism or who knows what to happen to her place of ministry in Bismarck. There truly are some very troubled individulas out there. I will definitely be praying for them. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 1, 2006 4:37 PM:

" Thank Hallmark for the secularization of Christmas & Easter, Mouth. Valentine's Day also used to be a Christian holiday, but now it's universal as well. As much as you disagree with it, it's true. Yes, I think everyone acknowledges the christian roots of easter & christmas. However, it's become something else to a lot of people. It's a celebration of family and friends to some, which I think isn't a bad thing, either. "

Rhetoric wrote on Nov 1, 2006 4:23 PM:

" To Mr. E, Why is this religious group so afraid to OK the showing of this movie in Bismarck if your so proud of what your teaching???....Again I say, show the movie in Bismarck and I will never post again on this message board topic. I won't have too because the messages on this board will be off the charts. "

Mr. E wrote on Nov 1, 2006 2:45 PM:

" Rhetoric: I am not changing the subject. I am simply pointing out how your views/opinions seem to be just as radical as you claim this camp to be. If that is true, why should anyone take your "voice" against this camp seriously? Everyone should watch the film but not base their entire opinion of the camp from a couple of film makers. Have an opinion but don't get all bent out of shape because of a movie. Relax. Oh yeah, and nice comeback. "

Rhetoric wrote on Nov 1, 2006 2:20 PM:

" To Mr. E....Don't try to change the subject: "Jesus Camp is radical religion"! "

Mouth from the South wrote on Nov 1, 2006 2:18 PM:

" To incredulous; I believe that you are missing my point. Christmas and Easter are Religious Holidays. There are no other reasons to celebrate these two days except for the birth and death of Christ as is believed by the Christian Faith. They were not, nor,in my opinion, should they be, considered secular holidays. And from my point of view, our children should be made aware of this. If they do not believe in the reason for this Holiday, then they simply should not be celebrating it. Hannakkah is a good example. I respect the Jewish Religion and totally uphold their right to celebrate Hannakkah. I however, do not celebrate it as a secular holiday. I do not send Happy Hannakkah cards or gifts unless it would be to a Jewish friend. I certainly would not expect any Jewish friend to send me a gift or card for Hannakkah. My point is, you would not be celebrating these holidays either in school or commercially if it were not for the Christian faith. These two holidays would simply not exist. Many of these people who are denigrating the Christian religion in this post and how it is being taught to these young people, are, I would bet, extremely happy to make money off of these holidays, take time off from work to celebrate them, but don't believe in them. Repeating myself from my earlier post, this is hypocrisy. And allowing one's children to celebrate these holidays, while the parents are critizing the very religion upon which it is based, is truly sad. I sincerely do not think that the 'Jesus Camp' children are as traumatized as were the adults who saw the film. After all, the children were there for the whole camp experience not just 80? minutes of it. "

Check your Head wrote on Nov 1, 2006 1:58 PM:

" I think that introducing your kids to faith is a good idea, but to me the clips I've seen of this movie cross the line. Why would you want your kids to start a relationship with God based on guilt, intolerance and fear of going to hell? Kind of sounds like a dysfunctional relationship to me. My concern is that these kids are going to be really confused when they are old enough to think for themselves. I speak from the experience of having this same load of garbage forced down my throat from the time I could walk. Finding spirituality should be a choice of free will, not one of fear. "

Mr. E wrote on Nov 1, 2006 1:03 PM:

" A sampling of Rhetoric's mellow toned comments...."This is the absoulute "Sickest" most Radical Right Wing Politics I have ever heard of or possibly imagined./// You are a SICK and DISTURBING person////You've lost your marbles//// You are sick demented (I say criminal) for forcing young children to be subject to this mental trauma.//// Your ignorance only exposes your lack of education and diversity.////Can you feel our boots on your xxx?/////How would you like it if I was a teacher and I showed 8 yrs old kids pictures of dead and wounded US soldiers who have blown to bits in Iraq causing them to cry and have nightmares."...... Actually my favorite is his post to me on October 19, 2006 1:41 PM. Yes very moderate to say that to someone who doesn't even support this church/camp. "

Mr. E wrote on Nov 1, 2006 12:36 PM:

" You just said at 10:20 am that some of your posts of are a "fiesty spirity." Since when does fiesty = moderate/mellow? Contradiction, I think so and every one of the voices in my head agree:) As an earlier poster stated, I would rather come across these kids as adults in a dark alley rather than a lot of Americans. So scary is little too strong of a word to describe them. Weird, maybe, strange, unusual, okay. But maybe I am just too radical and trying to push my politics. Oh, and who is Mike E? "

Rhetoric wrote on Nov 1, 2006 12:09 PM:

" To Mike E...My posts are in a mellow tone, so if you read them in any other tone than that its just more loud voices in your head. "

Rhetoric wrote on Nov 1, 2006 12:06 PM:

" To Mike E, ...don't try to turn the tables on me as I am truly moderate in all forms. The religion and politics of this movie are radical and everyone in that has seen the movie (everywhere but in Bismarck)....that is not part of this religious group thinks so. If they would show it in Bismarck, everyone would see the truth and I wouldn't even have to post one word. But since they won't I'll have to be one of the voices...because I've seen it and its one of the scariest movies I've ever seen. So why don't you show it in Bismarck? Have Becky F. release it if its so mainstream and non-controversial! The fact is your scared to release it and the reason is that...people will be "outraged". **What does that say for your church??? "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 1, 2006 12:05 PM:

" Mouth from the South: When I referred to celebrating Christmas & Easter, I wasn't not referring to myself or whether I celebrate these holidays. It was in reference to children celebrating holidays in public schools. This was in response to the post that Halloween shouldn't be celebrated by children. My point was that, you shouldn't take Halloween out of schools and away from children because it's "satanic" any more than you should take away Easter & Christmas (the secular versions of Santa and the Easter Bunny) because they're "christian." As a parent, you can teach your children about how these "holidays" relate to your religion and whether it's a good or bad thing to celebrate them, but, as far as celebrating them otherwise, they're fairly innocuous and banning Halloween is ridiculous. Will I teach my children about the genocide that resulted from Columbus' "discovery"? Yes, but when it's age appropriate, and I won't pull them from school every October 14 so they can't participate in those activities. Hope that helps clarify my point. "

Mouth from the South wrote on Nov 1, 2006 11:56 AM:

" Thank you, Mr.E. I appreciate your comment. "

Mr. E wrote on Nov 1, 2006 11:42 AM:

" RADICAL, RADICAL, RADICAL... Rhetoric's most favorite word, when a lot of his posts are in the tone of exactly what he speaks against. When someone has an opinion, they are radical, radical, radical and pushing their crazy politics. Get over it, get past it, move on and try to think TOLERANCE. Solid post Mouth from the South. "

CLS wrote on Nov 1, 2006 11:28 AM:

" Rhetoric-If you really think about it, there are many religions that are like you describe. Not just this one. The only reason why this form of Chrisanity is getting attacked is because it was made into a documentary, and was publicized. "

Mouth from the South wrote on Nov 1, 2006 11:17 AM:

" Get real folks. This is a Movie. As I said in my earlier post, movies are for making money and also for gaining fame and recognition. The film makers can edit out anything they want and just leave in the controversial parts, which is apparently what they did in order to draw more people to spend their time and their money to view it. The more controversial, the more money. Looks like it is working, too. All of you who are so anxious to have the movie come to Bismarck so that you can also help fatten the pocketbooks of the film makers and distributors. Too many people out there think that a movie has to be telling the truth. Yeah, some truth, but not all. Actually there doesn't have to be any truth in a film. No law that says there does. There had to be a lot more to this camp than just those "scary" parts and why wasn't that shown. Yeah, I know, time limitations. What an excuse. Now look at all of us. Debating about child abuse, etc. My idea and your idea of child abuse may be world's apart. We all know most of the basic standards for child abuse, but I would like to add a couple more. I believe it is child abuse to plop your child down in front of a TV and let them watch unreal cartoons for hour after hour. Do the parents or grandparents sit with them and tell them how unreal these characters are? I doubt that. That's scary. Then you go out and buy them shirts, sheets, purses, etc. that portray these unreal characters. If you do not think that your children are worshipping those idols, think again. Plus rock stars, movie stars, etc. Our children are subject to being brainwashed every time they sit down to watch TV or listen to music. I believe it is child abuse when there is not a parent in the home to greet that child and care for them when they come home from school. When they have to be alone in their home until mommy or daddy comes home two hours later. That's scary. What about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny? When was the last time you told your six or seven year old that Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny wasn't real? Talk about brainwashing. And to Incredulous, I do see something strange about someone celebrating religious holidays such as Christmas and Easter if they do not believe in the reason for these holidays. That is hypocrisy at it's highest. I believe that you are an intelligent person. You have reflected that in your earlier posts on this and other subjects. You should be able to see the contradictions in doing that. I just don't understand how someone can celebrate the birth and death of someone if they don't believe that person existed. I just don't have any idea what they are celebrating. Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny? Seems that many people would rather celebrate and worship things that we know do not exist and have no reason for doing so, except to have a vacation from work or school, rather then worship someone that may have existed. Doesn't make a lot of sense. "

Rhetoric wrote on Nov 1, 2006 10:44 AM:

" To CSL...I was taught the same things as a child as you described, but I was not taught the "Jesus Camp" & religious (their church) perspective of an absoulute brand of religious politics, intollerence and secularism etc. **Thats the part that is so disturbing and wrong. And thats the part that has the whole nation offended by this religious cult movie. "

CLS wrote on Nov 1, 2006 10:42 AM:

" I would certainly hope that you don't think that I'm not just throwing out a tounge lashing, I am truely just trying to make you see my point of view. I don't really care if you agree with me or not, I don't agree with you, however I do understand that this is something that you feel you need to defend, as do I need to also. "

Rhetoric wrote on Nov 1, 2006 10:37 AM:

" To Wild Flower....Another conspiracy theorist?....Kind of goes along with your radicalism and politics...Fear ~ Death ~ Destruction ~ Terrorism.....You must be scared of your own shadow....No wonder you need religion so much. I guess I'm not surprised (it fits like a glove). I guess you must be shocked that so many people are posting against your radical religion...I'm not!!! Q1: *Well let me answer your 1st question. I'm my own person and always post under Rhetoric. I travel all over the US for work so I sometimes don't post for a couple of days. Sometimes I post from work and sometimes from home. Either way, I'd be proud to be intellectually mistaken for Deb or Incredulous (although I'm of the male gender). Obviously have experienced a diverse education and perspective on life. Q2 & Q3: On your halloween questions and my upbringing: Lets stay on the "Jesus Camp" topic of this message board and not change the subject. "

CLS wrote on Nov 1, 2006 10:30 AM:

" Rhetoric- I really don't understand how you can call it brainwashing, I was taught growing up, that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, and that the people that are saved and believe this are going to go to heaven, and the ones that are not saved and don't believe this are going to hell. (there are other things that need to be done to get you to heaven also)We were also thaught to pray for our leaders. Now, you can call me radical if you wish. This is what I was taught as a small child and all through my adult years and believe and have faith that this is the truth. Now, was I brainwashed as a child? One more thing, I never said this was about politics. "

Rhetoric wrote on Nov 1, 2006 10:20 AM:

" To Chaos, ....Although, my posts sometimes reflect a fiesty spirit, I'd rather outwit my arch nemesis with knowledge, intellect and reason,...than resort to absent minded tongue lashings! Trust me, I'm usually laughing or at least smirking when I post. ;) "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 1, 2006 9:45 AM:

" The Tribune knows both my home IP address and work IP address, as I've identified them for them, and I'm the one that's had contact with the Tribune staff. So, think what you want, but I'm my own person and post under only one name. "

Dave Bundy, editor wrote on Nov 1, 2006 6:50 AM:

" To Wildflower: The online editor is out for a while so I'll respond. I think you're right. But we've had some prior contact with at least one of these people, so I don't believe they're all the same. But you're right, someone could use multiple computers in a day and different names and have different IP addresses. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 1, 2006 12:08 AM:

" Oops, forgot to answer one of your questions, my bad. I actually would not take my children to a haunted house. But, then again, I don't go to haunted houses, either, nor do I watch scary movies. The thing about a haunted house is that, while, yes, it may scare the begezuz out of kids, you can explain to them that it's not real and there aren't long-term consequences preached to them at the haunted house that are intended to shape their lives. If I were to take my kids to the haunted house with the intent of showing them what the afterlife is like if they don't take an anti-abortion stance in the 3rd grade, that would be closer to child abuse than explaining to them that it's a fun farce that some people enjoy. "

Incredulous wrote on Nov 1, 2006 12:03 AM:

" To Wild Flower: I was not evading your question, I've been out of town since Saturday for work, so I missed it. And, Deb & I are not the same person, and I don't, as I'm sure Deb doesn't, appreciate that you've lumped us together. Deb & I are friends, but we live in different cities and don't see each other often. We also have our own thoughts & opinions. Deb & I have some similar viewpoints, but, as you might know by reading the various blogs, we have different interests, as we're active on differents issues, not always the same ones. I'm not sure about Rhetoric or the other person you posted, although they don't sound similar in their writings. A person's syntax and style would appear to be similar, if the same person was posting, which is how I've become suspicious of the recent flurry of anti-Incredulous, anti-Deb postings. Just because two people have similar viewpoints doesn't mean they're the same person, no matter how crazy you think our positions may be. And, yes, Deb & I celebrated Halloween by going to the bar and imbibing on liquor, cigarettes (OK, that was just me, not Deb) and other fun activities with other friends last weekend. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with it, just as I don't see anything wrong with celebrating the secular form of Christmas or Easter (think bunnies and eggs, not crosses & death) in public schools. I think you're digging too deep into the issue of Halloween. I don't agree with celebrating Columbus Day, but I wouldn't prevent my children from making stick puppets of the three ships or learning about the event and participating in related activities. "

Wild Flower wrote on Oct 31, 2006 11:16 PM:

" Online Editor--It is not possible that one could be blogging on one site, using different names, FROM different computers (home, work, college computer lab, public library, mom & dad's house, boyfriend's house, best friend's house, etc.) even from different towns??? I know Detroit Lakes residents that teach NDSU in Fargo courses & they commute every single day between those two towns in two states. In the town I live in--nearly everyone commutes to other towns to work or school--I know people who live here, but work in FIVE different towns... . Mestillthinks there's a Debulouswarh. Please reply. Thanks! "

Online Editor wrote on Oct 31, 2006 10:36 PM:

" To Wild Flower: Based on IP addresses I can tell you that those are four separate people. At least one that you mentioned lives in a different city than the others. "

Wild Flower wrote on Oct 31, 2006 10:33 PM:

" Methinks Rhetoric, Wake Up America, Incredulous, & Deb are one and the same person sharing different blogging personalities... . On another blogging site, two other people suspected that Incredulous & Deb were one & the same & I agreed & dubbed them "Debulous"--but my, my, my how the big guns are pulled out now...how bizarre to have FOUR personas! YIKES! Don't you have a REAL life, girl? Let's see, how about if I dub thee...hmmm...can't decide between "Debulouswarh" or "Debulousrhica"--they both have a certain ring to them, although I'm more partial to Debulouswarh. How about if we let the masses out there vote on the new nickname? Now...you've not so cleverly evaded my Q posted over five hours ago--so, again I ask for your answer: "Do you think that Halloween haunted houses & all the other Halloween activities brain-wash children into the occult or pagan mindsets? Answer. Please. Everyone's waiting for your answer, Debulouswarh." Your punishment for not answering? Another mental flogging--now you must publicly answer this Q too: Do you think that exposing children to Halloween haunted houses is inflicting child abuse on children? OH-oh--just one more Q: Do you celebrate Halloween? And, for the record, I suspect your family, Debulouswarh, was a very superficial Christian one--if you're even telling the truth about that—did they make a nice show out of going to church & then hang out at bars & use bad language the other six days of the week? Something’s NOT “right” about your upbringing. I still feel sorry for you that you're harboring so much hatred & bitterness inside, dear Debulouswarh--whatever the cause of it--something brain-washed you into the bad attitude you have. Time for some introspective, luv. As for Becky? She doesn’t have a bad attitude at all, so your Q is a moot-point. CHAOS is right…convoluted. "

Incredulous wrote on Oct 31, 2006 6:48 PM:

" I actually want to know what kind of childhood Becky Fisher had that makes her act out in the way she does. That's more relevant to this conversation than Rhetoric's upbringing. "

Hub wrote on Oct 31, 2006 5:58 PM:

" Since this thread has turned into a debate of logical thinking vs. faith I think a quote from Robert Duvalls character Hub in Second Hand lions fits the discussion. "Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything; that power and money, money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this, that love... true love never dies. You remember that, boy. You remember that. Doesn't matter if it's true or not. You see, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in." "

CHAOS wrote on Oct 31, 2006 5:21 PM:

" This is funny--watching Rhetoric & WakeUpAmerica spar with Wild Flower & CLS--better than TV! Love it. Really, though Rhetoric & WakeUpAmerica, when you start boiling over like crazy & go a little berserkoid--you just don't make a whole lotta sense, & you come off to others as, well, a little off-kilter. "

Wake Up America wrote on Oct 31, 2006 5:21 PM:

" Wild Flower, don't feel sorry for me. I grew up with two very loving parents in a strong Christian home going to church every Sunday. My sisters and parents are still strong Christians, but they have also learned to accept my perspectives. As I spoke about a long time back, my understanding comes from years of experience, lots of reading and research, and a whole lot of education. From as far back as I can remember I always questioned any perspective that was overly one sided, especially religion. Again, don’t feel sorry for me. I’m very happy. I’m at peace with my perspectives. I’m not an angry & bitter person filled with hatred for all which is moral and good. I actually find that statement rather funny. My “moral compass” is very strong. I just view the world with a more relative perspective than most. "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 31, 2006 5:16 PM:

" To Wild Flower....don't try to blame your ignorance on my up bringing. My parents are very religious. They just aren't radical. I watched this movie at the theatre in Minneapolis and everyone there was aghast, shocked, stunned, angry, but also amused (uncontrollably laughing) by what you are teaching your children. You are so far out of the mainstream that you are the laughing stock of America. Can't you see that you crazy people! "

Wild Flower wrote on Oct 31, 2006 5:11 PM:

" Answer my Q, Rhetoric & Wake Up America--Do you think that Halloween haunted houses & all the other Halloween activities brain-wash children? Answer. Everyone's waiting for your answer, you guys. "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 31, 2006 5:09 PM:

" To Wild Flower...It's everyones business (including the Governments) when you traumatise children who have not reached the age where they are able to comprehend and reason as an adult. Shame on you! "

Wild Flower wrote on Oct 31, 2006 5:05 PM:

" What kind of parents did you have & what kind of childhood did you have, Rhetoric, that you would be SO angry about religion of any kind? I feel sorry for whatever it was that you had to live through--must've been pretty bad. But guess what? Your childhood experiences shaped you (brain-washed you)into what you are today--an angry & bitter person filled with hatred for all which is moral & good." "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 31, 2006 5:03 PM:

" To CSL and Wild Flower...My comments have nothing to do with Religion...They have to do with the tactics used by "Jesus Camp" and this church to brainwash children of their RADICAL Religion and politics. The fact that you present your religion and politics as ABSOLUTE is what makes it Radical! Can't you understand that? We humans have the ability to reason and you are taking away that ability for your children by only offering one option for them to understand. DEFINITION OF A CULT: "In religion and sociology, a cult is a cohesive group of people (often a relatively small and recently founded religious movement) devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture or society considers to be far outside the mainstream." "

Wild FLower wrote on Oct 31, 2006 5:02 PM:

" You said in your 10/31 at 1:20pm rant, Rhetoric, that abortion is a GOP issue. WHAT??? I know plenty of Democrats, Republicans, Greens, & Independents that are PRO-LIFE. Not only that, but you put a "P' where a "D" should be because abortion is a GOD issue. Stop ranting & raving. Mind your own business. "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 31, 2006 4:49 PM:

" To Wild Flower.....This isn't a political issue??? Please, not to be insulting but...before you post next time....Why don't you educate yourself by viewing the movie "Jesus Camp" and all the issues surrounding it. Thanks! "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 31, 2006 4:40 PM:

" To CSL....Your right, I don't understand radical religion and its brainwashing tactics of child abuse! "

Wild Flower wrote on Oct 31, 2006 4:37 PM:

" What kind of parents did you have & what kind of childhood did you have, Wake Up America, that you would be SO angry about religion of any kind? I feel sorry for whatever it was that you had to live through--must've been pretty bad. But guess what? Your childhood experiences shaped you (brain-washed you)into what you are today--an angry & bitter person filled with hatred for all which is moral & good. "

Wild FLower wrote on Oct 31, 2006 4:30 PM:

" Thank you, CLS, for your reply to Rhetoric. Right on! I wish I could say things in a nutshell like you--I always end up writing a short story. "

Wild Flower wrote on Oct 31, 2006 4:27 PM:

" I'd rather take my children to Becky's Jesus Camp to bless our country's President & sing hymns & praises to God & pray for murdered unborn babies, than to a Halloween "haunted house" like so many parents do or allow their children to do to get freaked-out by, Rhetoric--THAT'S CHILD ABUSE. Sick. Psychiatrists' studies prove that those scary houses traumatize children with their displays of blood, guts, corpses, body parts, witches, vampires, etc.--complete with scary Satanic music. Studies have shown nightmares & night-terrors in children exposed to those "FUN!" haunted houses warp their minds if they keep being exposed to them over the years as the child grows up. Sick. I guess that explains some peoples' twisted attitudes on this topic. And Rhetoric...keep your Democratic agenda out of this topic--this isn't a political issue. Mind your own business. "

Wake Up America wrote on Oct 31, 2006 3:47 PM:

" Religion is brainwashing and manipulation of the highest from. Those doing the manipulation don’t even realize that’s what they are doing, as they are simply doing what was done to them. The cycle continues like this for generations until one brave individual at a time stands up and says “NO! That’s not the truth. That’s not the only perspective in life. There is a much bigger picture that I’m not being told.” Once you take that first step to real knowledge, there is no going back. Unfortunately, too many people are scared to seek a greater truth beyond the doctrine they’ve been taught all their lives. That fear is the result brainwashing and manipulation taught to the masses from the time they were small children. It does not matter if it’s Christian, Muslim or other. It becomes so ingrained into who they are they can’t see the truth behind other perspectives. "

CLS wrote on Oct 31, 2006 2:44 PM:

" Rhetoric- If you don't believe in God or Jesus and you teach your children that that there is no God and that there is no afterlife, heaven or hell. Is that brainwashig? This is not a cult that is brainwashing these kids, nor is it child abuse. It is a religion that you do NOT understand. I think that you are making way to big of an issue of this. "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 31, 2006 1:29 PM:

" To Wild Flower....Its not OK to traumatize kids whether their yours or mine. How would you like it if I was a teacher and I showed 8 yrs old kids pictures of dead and wounded US soldiers who have blown to bits in Iraq causing them to cry and have nightmares. Then tell them that 600k innocent civilians have been killed in Iraq. Then tell them that George W. Bush is the devil. **That would be wrong wouldn't it? Criminal Neglect?? So why is it ok for these parents to do it on GOP issues like abortion??? It's not, plain and simple. **I am still calling for an investigation by ND child protection services and possible legal representation for the kids of this Neglect..! "

Wondering wrote on Oct 31, 2006 9:46 AM:

" I just saw this movie over the weekend, and I don't have to bother watching any Halloween movies because this is the scariest movie I have ever seen. Becky Fischer is one scary person! Wow, child verbal and mental abuse, mind control, bullying -- it was unbelievable! Okay, there was one funny part. They took out a life sized cardboard cut out of George W. with his typical "What? Me Worry?" Alfred E. Neumann grin and asked the children to send blessings up to it. That was a hoot! Other than that, one scary film. "

Dave Bundy, editor wrote on Oct 31, 2006 7:08 AM:

" To NoDak John: Thanks a bunch. "

NoDak John wrote on Oct 31, 2006 6:45 AM:

" I want to thank Dave Bundy for his tempered attitude towards postings. It would appear that he does not fear those who would challenge his thoughts or those of his readers as long as they have a certain level of decorum. A rare commodity in this day and age of "you shall think the way I want you to think or else". It seems that there are those who feel that they must sort out everyone and put them in a neat little compartment of their own building, not understanding that an individual can have a wide spectrum of diverse, good and bad, experiences which influence their views. There have been those who are a part of the history of ND whom I still admire. Senators Langer, and Young are two of those. Another gentleman whom I admired was the Sheriff of Grand Forks county "Sparky" Hensrud. They appeared to truly serve the people and not try to rule over them. I surely know that in every instance when I came in contact with them, they did their chosen service in an admirable fashion and I honor and admire them for that. Here again, my thoughts are tempered by my definition of a public servant. Since we pay their wages and make their very position possible, I think that it is their job to fulfill their oath of office to the best of their abilities, with the full knowledge that it impossible to their job in an honorable fashion and to, at the same time, please all. That to me is dedication to duty and demands respect and honor. Our forefathers stated the ‘government is at it's best an unruly servant and at it's worst a fearful master'. May we all serve in our chosen professions with Honor and Integrity. Hopefully we will also hear more from Becky, who may feel like she has been in the ring with peopel throwing punches at her from all sides and is therfore reluctant to "stick her head up" once again. "

CHAOS wrote on Oct 31, 2006 1:51 AM:

" The story says, "When they met, Grady and Ewing told Fischer that the film had no agenda, it was just an exploration of a subject they were curious about. Afterward, the two told her that the film acquired its political element when children at the camp were asked to pray for an end to abortion and to pray for President Bush, Fischer said." Typical. I think the filmmakers DID have a hidden agenda in mind--otherwise, they wouldn't have bothered making a documentary about the Bible camp (filmmakers thrive on excitement, controversy, & the unusual--they wouldn't have wasted their time on a boring yawn of samo-samo Lutheran Sunday School lessons). They tricked Fischer. I consider that highly unethical--just plain scummy. And what's wrong with teaching kids to pray for good things--like the end of abortion or for the president of their own country? What’s wrong with you people? How intolerant can ya be, anyway? Ya know, I don't care if she's got the kids praying to Elmo dolls--as long as they’re not breaking any laws & they leave me alone & don't infringe on my own personal freedoms. You control-freaks need to get a life outside of this blogging site. "

Wild Flower wrote on Oct 31, 2006 12:49 AM:

" If people want to send their children to this Bible Camp & if the kids like going there & aren't being forced to go, then keep your liberal, intolerant noses out of their lives. They're not bothering you or trying to drag you or your kids into their religion & Christian activities, so mind your own business. "

Rubes wrote on Oct 30, 2006 10:42 PM:

" Maverick, why is it that your colloquialisms are similare to other posters? Sounds just like Lucky, ya know. "

Why change in tune wrote on Oct 30, 2006 6:07 PM:

" Whoa! Becky toured with the producers to say this was an accurate protrayl. She liked the movie. Now you say she says it is not. Are you speaking for her. You know she has guts and she has a right to do what she does. She doesn't need people blaming others. It would be good to be able to see the movie in Bismarck. Unfortuantely, it is Becky who nixed that. "

ItsAdocumentaryPeople wrote on Oct 30, 2006 11:58 AM:

" This is a documentary people...documentaries are controlled by the people creating it. They have the ability to edit out and re-edit sequencial peices of film so the outcome is different than what actually took place during filming. I have watched this Bismarck minister on the national media defending her ministry and believe her. The national media interviewed her and put her on the spot questioning specific clips, and she said the particular clips were just small segments of what was actually taking place, and totally distorted. (for example, the media clip showed them what appeared to be worshiping a cardboard cutout of George W. Busch, and the interviewer said it appeared the children were worshipping George W. Bush and wasn't it against the christian faith to worship anyone but Jesus...and she had to defend herself that the children were not worshipping but praying for him) I hope they DO show this documentary in Bismarck so we can see the whole thing, not just bits and peices of some questionable nature. I think everyone is getting all bent out of shape for nothing. "

Show it in Bismarck wrote on Oct 30, 2006 8:48 AM:

" What do we have to do to see this movie in Bismarck? Are you serious, did Becky Fischer get the film makers to ban it in Bismarck? That is not right. "

NoDak John wrote on Oct 30, 2006 8:45 AM:

" One thing is certain. When the official position of the government became "there is no room or place for God in our public institutions", this nation took a dramatic turn for the worse. Was this by accident or by intent? No matter what measurement you desire to use, the freedom of the people has gone down dramatically. When "One nation under God" and "In God we trust" were the foundation stones of this nation, we prospered and were free. Nowadays we have to have the government involved in every decision and terrorists rule over us as we try to "respond" to them. Seems I need a license (tax) for everything I want to do. For those who enjoy being "liberated". . .enjoy. Problem is that everything has a price. If your "free" "lifestyle" enslaves, denigrates and destroys you, I fail to understand what is "free" about that. In the beginning God purposed that man would be free. Satan purposed to enslave denigrate and destroy that which was made in the image of God. Your choice. Finis "

Dave Bundy, editor wrote on Oct 30, 2006 6:52 AM:

" To Maverick: I found your 1:45 p.m. comment. We've clearly stated we decide what gets posted. We didn't and won't post your comment. It's not censorship. You're free to start your own Web site and say whatever you like. That's what the Constitution means by freedom of speech and freedom of the press. We're under no obligation to print any comment for any reason. Obviously we post a variety of views and we post far more than we deny. But for whatever reason, (my guess would be for tone or graphic content) your original comment was denied. Let it go, advance the discussion or please stop posting. "

Maverick wrote on Oct 30, 2006 12:03 AM:

" Online Editor—Please reply to my question: Did ya have a tech problem there with the comment I posted around 1:45 pm today? Or is there somethin else I gotta censor out for ya guys? I submitted it 10 hours ago & you've posted other comments since then & you posted my 1st question at 7:38pm but answered someone else's question at 9: pm & I'm still waiting after midnight the next day, now. What's goin on? "

To Online Editor wrote on Oct 29, 2006 9:37 PM:

" The theaters have no say in if the movie will be shown or not right now. Becky Fischer has talked the film makers into blacking out Bismarck from seeing the movie. So, if we are going to get to see the movie in Bismarck, Becky will have to relent and allow it. Again, she seems to want to play god. "

no true church wrote on Oct 29, 2006 8:30 PM:

" This country was founded thru god IN GOD WE TRUST when you keep god close to you and fight against the enemy you win someone comes along and screams that they do not want thier kids to hear about god in school that if they have a moment of silents you are forcing religion on thier children you are forcing you're belief on them etc what about you ppl that scream that it needs to be taken out of the school isn't that you forcing those of us that did not mind the moment of silent to do what you want. and who said it was for prayer any way it could have been for any reason for a small nap for instance to clear you mind right before the school work starts to rest your eyes to pick your nose in private any thing at all but no some athiest comes along and since this contry says freedom of religon we have to accept that I feel it is up the the you each person can and should decide what they believe in and trust me you can raise your kid in any religion you want if they do not believe in it once they are adults out the window that church will go I was raised catholic and once I was old enough to see for myself I looked around at all the other churchs methodist, baptist,lutheran, morman you name it I tried it and I'll tell you what I found every religion takes from the bible what they truly believe and that is the principal they use for thier own beliefs If you read a book and I read that same book I may not interpret the meaning of that book the same way as you do. some religions think the bible should be taken literally others don't I say let everyone believe what they want and In the end we shall all see who is right in The end And on one last note THANK GOD WE LIVE IN A COUNTRY WHERE WE ARE FREE TO CHOOSE !!!! "

Maverick wrote on Oct 29, 2006 7:38 PM:

" Online Editor-- Did ya have a tech problem there with the comment I posted around 1:45 pm today? Or is there somethin else I gotta censor out for ya guys? "

Online Editor wrote on Oct 29, 2006 3:24 PM:

" To Allow the Movie Here: Call the movie theaters and tell the managers that you would like the movie shown here. We have no control over what movies are shown. "

Allow the movie here wrote on Oct 29, 2006 3:10 PM:

" Becky won't allow the movie to be shown here in Bismarck. Why doesn't the Tribune help break the stonewalling by the extremists? "

Joe wrote on Oct 29, 2006 1:46 AM:

" Queen of Hearts is upside down. The only people who want to take away other's religious freedom are those like you who say they have a monoploy on truth. These people also include Becky Fisher, the Jesus Camp people, and those who can't wait for the end when anyone who isn't just like them will be left behind. I am a Christian and I do not agree with you. That should be okay, EXCEPT YOU think you are absolutely correct and must determine what is and isn't okay in this country. So, you are the ones who want to take away freedom. Please stop playing the manitulative victim. "

Two way street wrote on Oct 29, 2006 1:37 AM:

" There is little in what Nodak John said that relates in anyway to what I wrote. When he writes about his fighting against religion and government thinking they can run his life better than he can, he has switched sides and is making the case against such absolutist religion like Becky and her cohorts are pushing. As for his saying that it is libelous to call Becky's camp style jihadist- that is the correct description. I was quoting Becky herself who said she was doing what the Islamic jihadists were doing. The point is when people train their children to believe that everyone is evil if they don't believe exactly as we do, that is what sows the seeds for religious war. Becky is doing that; I am not. I believe we should both be able to live here. "

Queen of Hearts wrote on Oct 28, 2006 10:22 PM:

" Queen of Hearts--Everything you said is true, "Mouth from the South"--absolutely everything! WHAT have public schools been teaching kids the past 20 years? An entire generation is clueless! They are tomorrows' leaders of our cities, states, & federal government! Yikes! The good old U.S.A. & everyone living here is in really big trouble, but not from foreign terrorists--from our own kids & grandkids. Another couple of years & we won't be allowed to speak freely at all--on this page, on the public sidewalk, in a grocery store, or in a courtroom because our freedoms are constantly being chipped away at & we're heading in that direction. The liberals are too stupid to figure that part out because they've been indoctrinated themselves by more sinister powers that be who are dressed in sheep's clothing who use flattery, pampering, & bribery to brainwash these overly selfish ones into believing that religious freedoms are something to be feared & outlawed. One day these cocky ones will wake up & be horrified at what they helped to happen: no freedoms at all, except for the powerful elite running the country & the courtrooms. We've been inching toward that end goal year by year for the past 40 years about. They don’t have a clue about spiritual warfare. That’s sad. They'll wake up way too late. 10/29—10:19 pm "

Mouth from the South wrote on Oct 28, 2006 4:02 PM:

" It appears that most of the people posting on this site are under the age of forty, because if not, they have certainly forgotten that this type of camp is nothing new. When I was going to a protestant Church camp in the late forties and early fifties, we were all taught that we needed to be in the Lord's Army. Little soldiers for God that were helping to wage war against the Devil and other unbelievers. A Catholic was not supposed to marry a protestant. A protestant was not supposed to marry a Catholic. Even some protestant churches considered marrying a Lutheran was getting close to heresy back then. If that wasn't intolerance, I don't know what was. Most of you, even those who do not attend Church, have probably heard many of the old hymns such as Onward Christian Soldiers, The Battle Hymn of the Republic, etc. These are all songs of waging war for God in a spiritual manner. Loved those old songs and still do. I, as a child, certainly did not take these songs to mean that we were to physically go out and wage war. I knew better, because we were taught at the same time that this was a battle for the spirit, not the physical. We were also taught to pray for our leaders, even if we did not politically agree with them. Communism was going to rule the world, etc. Of course, we were traumatized by some of the messages. But it didn't last. As we grew older, we became better educated and began to pick and choose those facets of our religious experience that we felt were valid. I am a Christian to this day, but have no intention of forcing my beliefs on anyone else. I do not believe that these children are being brain-washed. I do not believe that teaching children about waging a spiritual war is child abuse, I do not believe that these children are going to become hardened criminals and start throwing fire bombs or become suicide bombers because of what they are learning at a short-term "Jesus Camp." As far as the abortion issue goes, when was the last time someone watched a anti-abortion protest on TV and didn't see small children or even babies in their parents arms? And I just bet no one calls that brain-washing. I believe that there has been way too much over-reaction to what is simply a film. Nothing more than a couple of people making a movie, documentary or not, using dramatic portions of the camp experience that will draw people to spend their money to see it. Most people would not even think about going to see a film about small children sitting quietly reading the Bible or having a study class. After all, there is no drama (or money) in that. "

Vladislaw wrote on Oct 28, 2006 2:36 PM:

" Brainwashing, also known as thought reform or re-education, is the application of coercive techniques to change the beliefs or behavior of one or more people usually for political or religious purposes. Many people have come to use the terms "brainwashing" or "mind control" to explain the otherwise intuitively puzzling success of some methodologies for the religious conversion of inductees to new religious movements (including cults). The term "brainwashing" is not widely used in psychology and other sciences, because of its vagueness and history of being used in propaganda, not to mention its association with hysterical fears of people being taken over by foreign ideologies. It is often more helpful to analyze "brainwashing" as a combination of manipulations to promote persuasion and attitude change, propaganda, coercion, capture-bonding, and restriction of access to neutral sources of information. Note that many of these techniques are more subtly used (usually unconsciously) by advertisers, governments, schools, parents and peers, so the aura of exoticism around "brainwashing" is undeserved. At the same time, nuanced forms of indoctrination and propaganda in religious, political and commercial venues may occasion wider and deeper impacts than do outright coercive tactics. Mirroring George Orwell's doublespeak, strategists of indoctrination and propaganda frequently disguise themselves as promoters of freedom and liberation. Thought reform is the alteration of a person's basic attitudes and beliefs by outside manipulation. The term usually relates closely to brainwashing and mind control. Benjamin Zablocki sees brainwashing as "term for a concept that stands for a form of influence manifested in a deliberately and systematically applied traumatizing and obedience-producing process of ideological resocializations" and states this same concept had historically also been called thought reform and coercive persuasion. The main disputes regarding brainwashing exist in the field of cults and NRMs. The controversy about the existence of cultic brainwashing is one of the most polarizing issues which separate the camps of cult sympathizers and cult critics. There is no agreement about the existence of a social process attempting coercive influence and neither about the existence of the social outcome that people are influenced against their will. "

Passion for what? wrote on Oct 28, 2006 9:58 AM:

" Mike R., you make a good point. Why try to shout down people who are critical of the things they see in the “Jesus Camp” documentary or anything else they see people doing in the name of Jesus? Maybe they’re justified in their criticism, maybe not, either way they’re just communicating how it looks to them, and they shouldn’t be vilified for doing that. Christian, take a look at the things you believe are important works of God, then read Mathew 5, 6, and 7 ( I like the Message Bible myself, but any translation will do). If what you’re defending and devoting a lot of time and energy to is not producing in you the life described in those chapters it’s time to ask God why. I’m not saying leave your church, or start a new church, or a house church, or anything like that. I’m just saying if you want that kind of life to begin to be expressed through you more and more everyday without all the emotional ups and downs that come with being a part of whatever the latest “Move of God” is, then ask Him to teach you about it. "

NoDak John wrote on Oct 28, 2006 9:38 AM:

" In response to "Two way street wrote on October 26". I do not belong to any organization or group. As an individual I have fought and continue to fight against any and all who live under the delusion that they can run my life better than I can, when in reality they are incapable of running their own lives as is testified to by their use of drugs for example. A group such as Government or Religion who can do everything for you (including thinking) can also do everything to you. Determining how others will conduct their life should be based on facts, not supposition. As far as your and my future is concerned: Far too many in positions of responsibility think that it is their duty to assume they know best how to run you and me. These individuals are way over their heads and are mired in the very "solutions" they have foisted on us in the past. Their solution to this folly is "If we only had more of the peoples money, we could fix it". NO! They have already proven that their "solutions" just exacerbate the problem. They need to get a real job and quit "serving the people". Neither you nor I will solve the problems or supposed problems of the "Jesus Camp", but careless rhetoric such as calling them "Jihadists" is not only not helpful but is also libelous. That exact preprogramming rhetoric style is what allowed the mass murderers of the past to give us WWI and WWII and the numerous other "battles for freedom" including Bosnia. "

Mike R wrote on Oct 28, 2006 7:51 AM:

" Why is it that some people have to defend absolutely anything with Jesus on the label? Read some of the comments here. People are not even commenting on the methods being used in this camp. Any comments made by anyone, Christian or not, is shouted down as being against Jesus and against God. It would appear to me that some people think you should be able to do anything at all, no matter how bizzare or possibley harmfull and as long at the name Jesus is attached to it, no one should ever have anything bad to say about it. Is your faith really that shallow that you have to defend everything anyone does as long as they claim they are doing it in Jesus name? "

lb wrote on Oct 27, 2006 2:43 PM:

" It is not teaching... I am a christian .. and I think this is brain washing.. look what they do ...hear what they say and look at the kids faces on the videoa... it is sick.... "

TimJ wrote on Oct 27, 2006 1:31 PM:

" I have been traveling during the past several days and so haven't had a chance to respond to some of the posts placed during my absense. A couple comments that I want to make will be an attempt to bring my up to date. Some writers are confusing/equating the terms Pentecostal and Charismatic. The Pentecostal Movement which began in the South at the turn of the century was not accepted by mainline Churches. Some elements of the Pentecostal Movement were introduced into the mainline Churches in this country near the end of the 1960's, and they prefer to be called Neo-Pentecostals or Charismatics. The Neo-Pentecostals/ Charismatics are quite different from the Classical Pentecostals. The second point I want to make is that in the Protestant traditions there is a difference between a Pastor and a Reverend. A Reverend who one who has seminary training and has been ordained by an elder/leader/bishop/president of their synod or district. A Pastor is someone who assumes a position of leadership in a church without an formal training. Some Pastors are receiving their theological training exclusively on web sites set up as home correspondence. There are web sites and companies that issue a certificate stating that one is now a clergy person or pastor simply by filling out a brief application form and sending a check for $25.00 or $50.00 to the issuing company. You can get a Pastor certificate for $25.00, and a bishop certificate for $50.00. Perhaps this explains some of the difficulties and problems that Christian churches are facing today. "

To LB wrote on Oct 27, 2006 11:06 AM:

" Brain-washed? Since when is teaching a bible story brain-washing? So are you saying that you are brain-washed having grown up with some religious background? Hmmm.... "

Chavez wrote on Oct 27, 2006 10:58 AM:

" Our Founding Fathers knew full well what it meant to combine church and state--they witnessed it in the Old world and saw the savagery it inevitably produced. There is no mention of God whatsoever in the constitution, and it was done that way on purpose. If our Founding Fathers wanted a combined church/state system, entire Articles in the constitution would have been necessary to spell it out. God isn't mention, nor Jesus Christ. However, in 1797, in a treaty with Barbary Coast pirates, ratified by the Senate, signed by President Adams, and publicly published in newspapers it is clearly stated that the United States is in no way based on the Christian religion. There was no disagreement among either Federalists or Democratic-Republicans at the time either about that article in the treaty. It was recognized as fact. Administration upon administration and Congress upon Congress up to the relatively recent past have agreed that church and state should be separate, and the courts have also rightly agreed. But those who think that this should be Christian nation, ask yourselves this: Whos brand of Christianity would hold sway? Catholic? Baptist? Charismatic? Pentecostal? Can you just see those groups agreeing on anything? If you want to see what would happen in a "Christian Nation" you have to look no further than Iran's government. All of us, Republicans and Democrats, moderates, conservatives, and liberals need to stand up to the moralizers and the self righteous if we value our freedoms! "

Nice to see! wrote on Oct 27, 2006 10:31 AM:

" It is actually really nice to see that there are still Christians out there that will stand up for their beliefs. They don't fall into the opinion of someone else! They don't change their mind because of the majority against them. They stand up for the one true God who will give them ever-lasting life. I see many comments on here saying basically "Christian vs. Democrat". Something wrong with this picture? Absolutely! God bless all of you who read this! Whether or not we hold the same beliefs or the same faith, I pray that you can feel the presence of God in your life today! "

lb wrote on Oct 27, 2006 10:29 AM:

" This is sick ... watching the video showed how brain washed these kids are.. I hope people are not dumb enough to allow their kids to go to a place like this... "

Lucky wrote on Oct 27, 2006 9:52 AM:

" I tip my hat to Graphic Designer, North Star, Wild Flower, Nodak John, Barbara Kay, & Becky Fisher. Although, Graphic Designer, Eminem is the least of my worries of those who are blatantly brain-washing our children--that dirty-pig-bestiality-promoting Hollywood's Madonna, Satan-worshipping Ozzie Osbourne, criminal Fifty Cent, HBO, the Playboy Channel, & all the rest like them that are today poisoning our children's minds, hearts, & souls--turning them into Columbine murderers or rapists or drug addicts. Yet, these Christian haters on this thread spouting off their mouths don't have a problem with those types & those "camps", do they now? Nope--they only hate moral, well-behaved Christians. They make me sick. "

GraphicDesigner wrote on Oct 27, 2006 1:41 AM:

" It's amazing how when the name "Jesus" is uttered everyone gets into an uproar.But when we talk of sex,killing people,rape,drugs,alcohol,etc....everyone shrugs and says "it's their choice!"Indeed!Everyone has a choice to do what they want and say what they say.Was that not freely given by our forefathers many years ago?But along with that freedom of speech......was not the freedom of religion also given?Why must we poke fun or ridicule another religion just cuz we don't believe it?Seriously grow up and move on!If your kid isn't a part of the camp,which might I point out would be your choice if you sent them there,then just leave the rest of them alone!Don't send your kids to the camp if ya don't want them to be part of it....that's your freedom,but don't try to force your ideas and beliefs on someone else,thus infringing upon their rights!Plus,I think I'd rather my kids be influenced by God than by Eminem. "

North Star wrote on Oct 26, 2006 10:02 PM:

" Love your posts, Nodak John! Intelligent men rule over the ones who, sadly, are victims of the Dumbing-Down of America. Keep the faith, Nodak John, & keep sounding off--maybe someone's brain will click & the blinders will be removed from their eyes. If not, you're still strengthening the rest of us Christians. I can't believe there still are people out there who don't know they've been duped into falsely believing what "the separation of church and state" actually means & how it came to be misinterpreted for the first time in 1947. Isn't that just crazy?!? "

Wild Flower wrote on Oct 26, 2006 9:41 PM:

" Wow..."Shakin my head" must've shook it too hard & rattled something loose up there for him/her to believe that Americans aren't upset about the war. That's an outrageous lie. Both camps--those in favor of the war & those not--do not LIKE the war. And "Eyes open is better"—your eyes are closed—not open at all! You viciously slandered all Christians when you wrote, "Christians mock, ridicule, intimidate, attack Muslims in our country." I'm a Christian & I know a LOT of Christians from all over the United States & I've seen a LOT of Christians being interviewed on TV & NONE of us suffer from that warped frame of mind that you accuse us of. YOU are the only one here reeking of hatred--a severe, vicious, & twisted hatred of Christians. I would be much more nervous if one of you guys were to follow me down a dark alley, than I would be if anyone from the Jesus Camp were to. Yep--that's what going on here: Jesus Camp thinkers versus Christian/God Haters Camp nonthinkers. "

WOW! wrote on Oct 26, 2006 5:19 PM:

" Wait a minuet! Okay I see what you are saying. To me it does not matter if someone attacks the church from the outside or from the inside; the Body of Christ needs to stand up and speak out for what the Bible says. In theory I did not miss the boat. But I do not want to force anything on anyone. Just wanted to show that there is always more to the topic than what is out there in the open because this affects the "church". (On that note read church history). May God bless all who read this! "

Wake Up America wrote on Oct 26, 2006 3:49 PM:

" Vladislaw, well said. We now live in a not so free country with our civil liberties eroding away because of religious intolerance. Religion IS at the root of all ‘evil’. Our founding fathers understood this and hence why they created a governmental system, a constitution, base on the separation of church and state. We still live in a great country, but that greatness is slipping away. We are slowly returning to the dark ages when chaos and terror rules. This is what the religious right wants us to feel, fear. That’s what fire and brimstone sermons are about, making us fear. When we fear we are easier to manipulate. Religious leaders have known this and been good about using this tactic for thousands of years. Governments know this and have been using it for thousands of years. Our own government and conservative religious groups are doing the same. I do have fear and disbelief at just how many Americans are buying into and believing in the fear. You want to have faith? Have faith in freedom! Not religion. Have faith in humanity! Not misguided leaders. Have faith in yourself! Not some false god. This is the 21st century, not the dark ages. If knowledge truly was important to the world, religion would fade away and humanity would flourish. This was the dream our founding fathers. Freedom. Not just from political tyranny, but also from religious tyranny. "

Okie from ND wrote on Oct 26, 2006 2:16 PM:

" Two things to remember: 1) Often we think we are doing things in "love" and with no intention of harming another, but we in fact reak havoc; 2)"ordained" has all kinds of different meanings--not all "ordinations" are equal. I personally know many folks who barely completed high school and are functionally illiterate, but are "ordained" by some sect. "

Vladislaw wrote on Oct 26, 2006 1:13 PM:

" Amber wrote"got children excited for Christ and prayer/intercession" Why not get our kids excited about math? I have never heard of a math cult beating people over the head with slide rules and calculators. But we have 4500 years of written history of religionous cults killing other religious cults. Fisher said it was not political and that the bible says to pray for our leaders. LEADERS, plural, where was the cutout of Ex President Clinton? Or the Democratic Leader of the Senate? Or a representative of ANY other party? Having ONLY a cutout of Bush IS political by definition. Curious wrote:"I think more of us need to read our Bibles" Which bible? There is literally HUNDREDS of versions of the bible. How about the original in greek? Or the jewish version of the old testiment or maybe the gutenburg version. Which one is the "true" bible? I would imagine YOUR bible is the correct one of course. Which part of the bible should we read? The current division of the Bible into chapters and the verse numbers within the chapters have no basis in any ancient textual tradition. Rather, they are medieval Christian inventions. Note, they are INVENTIONS of man. That is basically what the whole bible is, a series of inventions of spirituality that have EVOLVED (oh oh he used the 'evolved' word better tie him to the dunking chair and see if he drowns or floats) over the course of THIRTY centuries. loving god wrote: "Our whole country was founded upon God and their faith in God" What myth are you trying to sell? "Washington revealed almost nothing to indicate his spiritual frame of mind, hardly a mark of a devout Christian. In his thousands of letters, the name of Jesus Christ never appears. He rarely spoke about his religion, but his Freemasonry experience points to a belief in deism"- Jim Walker Jefferson believed in materialism, reason, and science. He never admitted to any religion but his own. In a letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, 25 June 1819, he wrote, "You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know." Adams, a Unitarian, flatly denied the doctrine of eternal damnation. In a letter to Thomas Jefferson, he wrote: "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" In his letter to Samuel Miller, 8 July 1820, Adams admitted his unbelief of Protestant Calvinism: "I must acknowledge that I cannot class myself under that denomination." In his, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" [1787-1788], John Adams wrote: "The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses. ". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind." Adam CLEARLY states:"It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven...forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses." The United States was founded on REASON and the SENSES, not under god or through god. James Madison, Called the father of the Constitution wrote In 1785, in his Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments: "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." Doesnt that sound like President Bush? "Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries" ? Maybe you should read a HISTORY book with whatever version of the bible you read. "

Two way street wrote on Oct 26, 2006 11:49 AM:

" I am sorry, Nodak John, but you seem to be talking in circles. You and your group are the only ones who have truth? I think the most frightening thing about this is that our government, both state and national, are now run by people who agree with Nodak John. In answer to your question, those in the movie did say that God will take care of that and the end of the world is coming. I'm sure they believe God will tell them what to do about that. "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 26, 2006 10:24 AM:

" To Chavez and Eyes Open,...wise words, intellect, and perspective. Thanks for the excellent posts! "

Nodak John wrote on Oct 26, 2006 8:58 AM:

" "Two way street" No I did not see the movie. Therefore I have a question. Did anyone in that group advocate that they should get their hand on a few hundred pounds of explosives and arm those explosives when they hide the in the local Wal-Mart? No, they did not did they. Though I did not see the movie, I am assured they did not advocate the massacre of all non Christians. He who does not know their history SHALL liver it. You would be impressed if you knew what certain people were doing behind the scenes to protect you from certain elements. But know this: Due to ignorance their numbers are growing exponentially. Though you may not agree with those of us who have an entirely different perspective on the world, I do know that there comes a time when the realities of this world will crush many. Am I your enemy if I warn you of the meaning of responsibility? Is it easier to learn from others experience or is bad experience so valuable to learn from that you desire to have the wounds so many before you carry? "

Eyes Open wrote on Oct 26, 2006 8:14 AM:

" WOW still misses the point. The charismatic tradition says they have a monopoly on truth. When someone says they have the only way that means the only way. Everyone else is left behind. Many far right people are attacking other Christians. In the movie they say that God does not visit many churches because those other churches do not think right or do not do things right. That doesn't seem to leave room in their world for Christians in the United Church of Christ, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Catholic, many Methodists and lots more. So, according to you, WOW, when other Christians attack charismatics, the others are attacking the body of Christ. BUT, when charismatics attack other Christians, then it is okay. Something is missing here. "

Chavez wrote on Oct 26, 2006 7:29 AM:

" Actually, WOW, you did miss the boat, as well as the point. Fundamentalists and Charismatics/Pentecostals consider their moral code to be God-ordained and taken from what they see as an inerrant Bible. By definition, then, all other moral codes are wrong or at the very least lacking. When anyone sees their moral code or religion as superior to all others, you cannot tell me that they then see other people as their equals. Why do I say this? Because it is part of charismatic and fundamentalist creed to evangelize and seek to convert others. Why would they seek to do that if they truly saw others' belief systems as equal? Yes, yes, I have heard the saying "We are all sinners saved by grace" but that does not in the least take away from the religious arrogance that demands that the rest of the world conform to fundamentalist or charismatic beliefs. Heck, even between charismatics (those who are strict believers in Christ and in the inerrancy of the Bible, but also believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the use of speaking in tongues, prophecy, etc) and fundamentalists (those who are strict believers in Christ and the Bible, but do not believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit) there is considerable disagreement and finger-pointing. Charismatics and Pentecostals think of themselves as those who have a "deeper walk" with Christ and consider the fundamentalists (non-tongue speakers) to be low-wattage Christians who are still "babes in Christ". Yes, there is plenty of religious arrogance to go around, and we all can hope that the influence fundamentalists and charismatics wield in the US government today will begin to wane after November 7. The spiritual hubris they exhibit is no different in mindset than the radical fundamentalist of Islam. Both see themselves as having the only path to God and are quite willing to use state power to force it upon the rest of society. "

WOW! wrote on Oct 26, 2006 3:11 AM:

" Know I did not miss the boat. When one attacks a portion of the church in theory they are attacking the Body of Christ as a whole. The charsimatic tradition is not a monopoly on the truth. I do not think that I can change you why of thinking, all I can do is pray that maybe someday my words will touch a heart or two. Sometimes people say something just to be heard, but sometimes there are people who say things to impact the world for Christ. I can say right now there are things in Christianity that I do not understand, but I also know that attacking those things is not going to change a thing. I am reminded of a verse in Ecclesiastes 4:5-6 which states, "The fool folds his hands, and ruins himself. Better one handful with tranquillity than two handfuls with toil and chasing after the wind." God bless! "

Two way street wrote on Oct 25, 2006 11:53 PM:

" Nodak John obviously has not seen the movie or he is a die hard and can't see the forest for the trees. Becky says clearly in the movie she believes she must do this because the Islamic jihadists train their kids for war. I am only quoting her. You talk about treating others like garbage. The best example of that are the people who follow the sect that says everyone who does not adhere completely to their way is evil and expendible. That doesn't make me feel very neighborly. You and Becky have a right to belive and do as you do. But, before you critcize others on a lack of respect, look in the mirror. "

Nodak John wrote on Oct 25, 2006 8:32 PM:

" I commonly respect individuals right To think what they will and do what they will do and let them learn from the experience, but there are those who speak so foolishly that it demands a response. Hope for the better? By what means? Treating others like garbage is not respectful. ""Hope for the better wrote on October 24, 2006 11:36 PM: "Certainly those of us who think we should respect each other need to start standing up for that or we'll all soon be outside, unwanted in a world controled by the Jesus Camp troops (jihadists)"" You speak of respect. What in the world does that word mean to you? Does that mean "if you have the same material in your head as I have in mine, I will respect you"? To call Christians Jihadists shows an extreme lack of courtesy or knowledge. Start with little mental exercises such as one plus one equals two. From there try two times three equals six. When you get those down pat, then STUDY a bit of history. You speak of respect and show none. "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 25, 2006 5:17 PM:

" To WOW, do you think your gentle words confuse us all with the twisted message of your radical religion and politics? They don't! "

Two way street wrote on Oct 25, 2006 5:15 PM:

" I think WOW missed the point. A critical part of the "charismatic tradition" is that they have a monopoly on truth and that all the rest of us are missing the boat. That doesn't leave a whole lot of room to live together in a respectful way as neighbors in a community. They have every right to be who they are and to do what they do at "Jesus Camp". I am open to them, but by their own words and deeds they are not open to me. And please stop playing the Christian victim card. "

l wrote on Oct 25, 2006 3:25 PM:

" I THINK THIS IS A DISGRACE... WHAT A BUNCH OF CRAP THEY ARE TELLING OUR KIDS... I AM SURPRISED PEOPLE LET THEIR CHILDREN GO TO THIS PLACE.... THIS MIGHT AS WELL BE A CULT. "

WOW! wrote on Oct 25, 2006 2:54 PM:

" Personally I have not seen the documentary. From experience our human nature is to not like something because it goes against our norm. When we are forest to go outside our comfort zone we get upset. This is a natural reaction. Granted everyone has there opinion on the subject of the documentary. But my advice is to step outside your comfort zone and explore the charismatic tradition of the church. You may be surprised to find out that there are more churches out there that are charismatic than you may think. Just to help the charismatic tradition is a Spirit filled life. The tradition focuses on the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit which is apart of the Holy Trinity. Why not experience something before saying its bad when it has to do with the church and the Christian faith. "

Hope for the better wrote on Oct 24, 2006 11:36 PM:

" You know, I just read again the article that started this and I scanned through some of the posts, too. I was very impressed by the two local people who said our values are very different than those who think so absolutist as Becky. Talking about a point of view that is different than Becky's in public is so very very rare here. It really is about what kind of community we want. Certainly those of us who think we should respect each other need to start standing up for that or we'll all soon be outside, unwanted in a world controled by the Jesus Camp troops (jihadists). I would encourage more people who posted here to become more public with your good thoughts. Don't let the extremists win by default. "

LJK wrote on Oct 24, 2006 8:17 PM:

" What would be really fun is to have a documentary of people writing in their comments. Cameras filming someone's reactions when reading a comment that really sets their brain aflame and rabidly answering it. Muttering aloud, glaring eyes, fingers hammering down on the keyboard and that final triumph of hitting the "post comment". Or maybe I'm just projecting. Anyway I would love to have seen Barbara Kay spending the day going haywire and throwing about the conspiracy theories. Now THAT'S a movie. Just remember I pitched this idea. "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 24, 2006 10:53 AM:

" "SHOW THE MOVIE"! The public has a right to see this movie. Actually, I think every Jr. High and Highschool student should see it in Bis/Man! "

In Fargo Nov 17 wrote on Oct 23, 2006 5:52 PM:

" The Jesus Camp movie will open in Fargo at the Fargo Theater on Nov 17. The star of the movie is in Bismarck and yet it isn't shown here first. Becky Fisher toured with the producers because she liked the film and wanted to promote it. Maybe she can help us get it to Bismarck? "

Passion for what? wrote on Oct 23, 2006 11:09 AM:

" My favorite parts of the Gospels are when Jesus dresses little kids up in Roman soldier gear, then runs them through the streets of Jerusalem saying “Don’t worry everyone. They’re just fighting a spiritual battle.” "

Deb wrote on Oct 23, 2006 10:29 AM:

" As Incredulous and I have discussed, to get this documentary distributed nation and world wide would take an Academy Award nomination. And the good folks at of Academy are usually intelligent enough to know which movies to give the nod in order to get them out more. Then you all will see what a nut bag we have living right here in Bismarck. I have friends in Fargo and Minneapolis who haven't even heard about this movie. That will need to be changed and I'm hoping the Academy will help us out with that. "

One Way wrote on Oct 23, 2006 10:24 AM:

" It appears that there are a lot of people who are critizing something they don't understand. Jesus said that no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born again. Meaning that we must make a personnal decision to accept Jesus as the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus. No one has to make this decision unless he/she wants to enter Heaven. When you make that decision, you do see things in a different light. The book of John in the Basic Instruction Before Leaving Earth (BIBLE) is a good read for more info. For the most part it is obvious by these posts who has or has not made that decision. "

Show it in Bismarck wrote on Oct 23, 2006 9:02 AM:

" Where can we see this movie in Bismarck? Why isn't this movie being shown here in Bismarck? I have heard that Becky Fisher says this is an accurate and good prensentation of what she does. Why can't we see it here? Someone who lives here gets national attention and we are blacked out! Why?? "

Mike R wrote on Oct 23, 2006 6:48 AM:

" BSdoggy: You are right. The film does not show everything that goes on at the camp. It does not show the quiet bible readings and things like that. That goes on in every bible camp everywhere in the US. That is nothing new so therfore it is nothing to film. The film isn't going to be 72 hours long, so they have to cut a lot of the camp out. They cut out the everyday stuff and show the parts that make this camp unique. Those parts however are not staged or taken out of context. Those parts are filmed just as they happened. They may be part of other things that happened at the camp, but that does not take away from the validity of what is shown on the film. It did happed just the way it was captured on film. To me, the scariest part of this whole thing is the number of people defending it. "

Incredulous wrote on Oct 22, 2006 10:11 PM:

" I've seen this movie and I don't know what the documentary makers could have done to make it look "more fair" to Becky Fisher and her camp. It is what it is, and it showed the truth. After watching the movie, you wonder what makes Fisher tick. By the way, the kids are crying in many scenes in this movie. Sure looks like they're having a good time... "

I have seen the movie wrote on Oct 22, 2006 8:24 PM:

" It is amazing how the people in this movie talk just like Republicans around here do. In Bismarck we have legislative candidates Sitte and Karls who have a history of supporting one-way only type extremist policies. Their runningmate Martinson goes along with them because he doesn't have the guts to say anything. "

BS Doggy wrote on Oct 22, 2006 5:54 PM:

" From the look of the posts: (1)Funny nobodu IN ANY PRESS has pointed comments about Islam, how "COURAGEOUS", (2) Christians are an easy target, they won't kill you, (3) "Wiccan", witch..."Whatever"..get a life (4) Most people commenting have not seen tacthe movie, and (5) even if they had, in typical "Micheal Moore" fashion, it appears the movie is a "Mockumentary" with viscious intent, versus a documentary based on sterile fact. Don't be fooled before looking at the whole picture folks, lest you become the "bumpkin/rubes" the mockumentary hope to depict (this goes for the "Anti" folks as well). "

notabible weirdo wrote on Oct 22, 2006 5:38 PM:

" Try teaching your kids a little science and history along with your fairy tales and maybe we would have a better world. Most wars are flamed by religious stupidity and as a gulf war veteran I saw enough extremism in the middle east and the fundamental christians are almost as bad. Wake up and get a grip. Everyone , it seems, needs a crutch but try keeping your stupidity to yourself and quit brainwashing little kids. Bad enough you are of subpar intellect let's not bring our next generation down there too. "

LJK wrote on Oct 22, 2006 3:51 PM:

" To: Becoming Clear: Bingo. First being Republican equaled being patriotic (which implied nicely that Democrats were not). The Republican party has practically put out a licensed trademark on the American flag as its symbol. I guess according to these people being Christian is equated with being Republican, too. Which also implies that Democrats are not, or at least not Christian enough. Next step: only Republicans eat apple pie and watch baseball. "

Apagar wrote on Oct 22, 2006 3:47 PM:

" Jesus Camp is the work of the devil. You must beware and be aware of the monster within the church. Lets not kid ourselves, this is not good. The devil himself is loving his Jesus Camp!!!!!!!!1 "

TO Becoming Clearer wrote on Oct 22, 2006 1:39 PM:

" I agree with you. The Jesus Camp people have been undermining our democracy for a long time and now they pretty much are the heart and soul of the Republican Party. Most Republican candidates come from the hard religious right. If there are any moderates left in that party, they are too afraid to say anything. "

They are absolutists wrote on Oct 22, 2006 12:49 PM:

" Just listen to what these Jesus Camp people say. They say they have an absolute monopoly on truth and will not stop until they force their way on everyone. Like Becky said they are the Christian jihadists. America used to be a nation where we respected our differences and lived together. These people have the right to their beliefs. But, they have taken advantage of our good will and it is time for us to be more public or we will lose that right. "

Ben Thr Dun-That wrote on Oct 22, 2006 12:01 PM:

" These right-wing fascists do not even begin to signify what Christ taught over 2000 years ago. Where is the humility and concern for everyone within their ranks? They are simply a lobbying group for the Republican Army. Why is it that the right-wing always wants tax breaks when the BIBLE states "the love of money is the root of all evil". Is it time to start taxing these so called election pulpits? "

Amen wrote on Oct 21, 2006 8:40 PM:

" TO Becoming Clearer - Yes it is. The religous right, today's Republicans and President Bush are all my way or the highway, authoritarian, and all or nothing thinking. They sure play on people's fears, don't they? "

Becoming Clearer wrote on Oct 21, 2006 6:17 PM:

" Becky Fisher and lots of others like her have done an amazing job of persuading others to join them. Becky says that her crowd believes that "Christians" (like her) should pattern how they train our kids after how Islamic jihadists train theirs. Then, when it comes time to put religion into politics, they should support Republicans because Republicans are the ones who will do what Becky and company want done. Now, we have a president who says if you don't agree with my policy on taxes, the federal budget or other things, then you are in favor of the terrorists. He said that. He appoints judges who promised to do what people like Becky and company want done. In Jesus Camp we witness the idolization of Pres. Bush. The picture is beginning to get clearer. "

John wrote on Oct 21, 2006 5:59 PM:

" It is a ridiculous idea (see Rusty's comment) to make people think God has been "scratched out." Today, kids pray in public schools and religion can be talked about. How can you teach the reason for the labor movement, child protection laws or the civil rights movement without talking about the social gospel as a foundation for it? The religous right extremists have had a unanswered field day pushing their rewriting of history long enough! God is alive and well. He is about love not fear and division. "

Mr. E wrote on Oct 20, 2006 10:06 PM:

" Judging from these last few posts, if I was forced to be stranded on a deserted island with either Rhetoric, Inredulous or Becky Fischer...I'd choose Fischer. Now that's radical! I'd consider Deb if included in the four, because even though we disagree on most everything, at least he likes movie trivia and a good laugh every now and then... Nothing like a good I-believe-in-God/There-is-no-god debate to past the time. "

Mike R wrote on Oct 20, 2006 6:55 PM:

" rhetoric: Ummm. Not sure what to say. I kind of thought that is was obvious that I was NOT siding with the Jesus camp people. Go back and read Nodak John's comment again and my response to him. I was not saying that is was a conspiracy against me. I was asking John if that is what he believed it was. I am just pointing out the unreasonable fear of persecution or conspiracy against them - this is sounding more and more like a cult all the time. "

Incredulous wrote on Oct 20, 2006 4:03 PM:

" Thoughts to Rhetoric on our romance: It is possible to wear a suit in New Salem and not get beat up. Of course, I was at a funeral... Also, Deb is just jealous because she's my Halloween date. "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 20, 2006 3:01 PM:

" To Mike R, every news agency in the world is not against you? how silly...The answer is more in the category of most educated people in the world think your abusing (traumatising) your children with radical religious politics. That is why everyone is OUTRAGED! "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 20, 2006 2:47 PM:

" To Rusty..Morality doesn't need a God it needs a good parent! Think about it. "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 20, 2006 2:46 PM:

" New Salem...I'd have to trade in my loafers for cowboy boots, pick up some jeans and give away all my suits. OK, we'd better stop mak'in fun of ole Barbara Kay's conspiracy theory before Deb throws up. "

Rusty Shackelford wrote on Oct 20, 2006 2:18 PM:

" Its about time Kids got passionate about there future. maybe after the baby bommers are gone American civilization will be heading in the right direction. First Came hippies and then they had had kids and passed there morals on to them. Scratching out GOD in the proccess. Its up to us to pass on good morals of God,Honor,country on to the future leaders of America. "

Deb wrote on Oct 20, 2006 1:46 PM:

" I'm getting sick. "

Incredulous wrote on Oct 20, 2006 1:23 PM:

" How about New Salem? "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 20, 2006 1:01 PM:

" Austin? Well, I'd definetely dig the music scene. However, I'd hop a one way flight to Seattle if I could live in Belltown, Fremont or Capital Hill. But what about Bismarck?....We'd actually experience some diversity (the melting pot) and loose our conservative innocence? "

Incredulous wrote on Oct 20, 2006 11:39 AM:

" Only if we can live near Paisley Park, my love. BTW, I just moved back from Minneapolis, so perhaps we could pick a different locale? How about Austin? "

Nodak John wrote on Oct 20, 2006 8:53 AM:

" Many of the things we "know" to be true are well assembled lies glued together with a little truth. I just did a google search on PsychoPolitics and on MKUltra and found that the information on how these systems work was quite good. Barbara Kay took the time to illustrate how "our" sources of news is controlled by very few. Try this as a check on her contention that they tend to march to one drummer. When a "world shaking" event occurs, go from channel to channel and note the coverage of that one "news" item. How in the world did they seem to get their story from the same source. All too often even the wording is identical. As far as groups such as the Branch Davidians is concerned, I would suggest that you do a bit of checking on that whole mess yourself. I have, and I have spoken to a number of the survivors. For one example of disinformation, look at the girl who testified before Congress that she had been raped by David Koresh at the Mt. Carmel site. Her grandmother said that at the time she was "being raped by Koresh in Texas" she was in fact at her home in California. Where did you see that reported? In fairness to various editors and program directors, you have to realize that they must rely on others as a source for their material. Having trustworthy reporters all over the world is an impossibility. One lesson I learned when I edited a newspaper was to double check my sources whenever possible, but there are just so many hours in a day and trying to cover all the bases is just not possible any more. That very problem of putting out world wide news is that the miscreants can very easily take advantage of the situation. Other misinformation. As far as the apparent Biblical "incest" in the beginning of this era, go back and read that for yourself very carefully. Please note that the word Adam is not necessarily a persons name but refers to having blood in the face or in other words it could be interpreted "able to blush". The sixth day creation and the eighth day creation are NOT the same. Check it out. The point of all of the above, be careful of what you believe as fact. If it does not "hold water" when checked from many angles, perhaps it was designed to mislead. Or was it just an honest mistake? The nasty reality of all of this is that we (each one of us) is responsible for our own conduct. That is called responsibility. "

MIke R wrote on Oct 20, 2006 7:01 AM:

" Nodak John: Never heard that story about the 2 columbine kids mysteriously dying after trying to do some of thier own investigating. You would think that would have made the news, wouldn't you? Or is every news agency in the world against you people too? "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 20, 2006 1:18 AM:

" Incredulous, "I guess I shoulda known by the way U parked your car sideways That it wouldn't last.... See, you're the kinda person that believes in makin' out once Love 'em and leave 'em fast " Perhaps we will have to quit the Tribune, pack up the truck and move to Minneapolis where our "Untamed Hearts" and minds can run free ~ "

Incredulous wrote on Oct 20, 2006 12:21 AM:

" NoDak John: I reposted a an earlier post from Deb. I did not write that post, but I do not wholly disagree with it. I'm going to go way off topic here, I'm aware of that. However, with regard to school shootings, there are many causes in each case and not each case is the same. Personally, I sympathize with the school shooters as much as I do the victims. I think one of the greatest contributors to school shootings is bullying and not every victim is entirely random. Do they deserve to be executed? Of course not, but at least their parents are allowed to grieve. Raise your kids to be kind, and, if not, better luck next time around. School shootings are a recent phenomenon, but deaths linked to bullying are not. Before, kids used to commit suicide. Now, they've added a homicidal aspect to it. Why the change? I don't know. Was it caused by "mind altering drugs"? Perhaps, but what caused those kids to suffer from depression in the first place? A far greater number of people are helped by these prescribed "mind altering" drugs, too. At least the kids that are put on medication had parents that were aware of the fact that their children weren't perfect and in need of help and intervention. Not so true for the bullies. "

Nodak John wrote on Oct 19, 2006 11:30 PM:

" Incredulous wrote on October 19, 2006 "This leads to frustration and fear and anger and hatred which at some point manifests itself through violence. Heard of Columbine? Flint? Red Lake? The list goes on and on. Preaching radical anything leads to violence, whether it is Islam, Judism, or Evangelism. And preaching violence to children, and this is happening in America no less, in North Da-friggin-kota, is complete criminal child abuse. " Might I suggest you read PsychoPolitics. I would also suggest that you look beyond the headlines in those school shootings. If you do that, you will find things like mind control and mind altering drugs. In EVERY one of those school shootings, the individuals involved were on prescribed mind altering drugs. We had some of the Columbine students investigating the inconsistencies between the reports given and their actual experiences, but that came to a halt when two of the investigating students died mysteriously. "

Deb wrote on Oct 19, 2006 4:29 PM:

" I'm an idiot. You heard it here first folks. I swear to God (intended punnage) that that post wasn't on here earlier. Thanks Incredulous. "

Incredulous wrote on Oct 19, 2006 4:24 PM:

" Rhetoric, I don't think two Tribune employees can marry each other. "

Incredulous wrote on Oct 19, 2006 4:21 PM:

" I'm a weirdo, but I think maybe you didn't scroll down enough to find your post. Here it is: Deb wrote on October 19, 2006 11:53 AM:"Mr E - if you read the whole blog you will see that we've already been through this. You're right- they are not telling these kids to take up arms and kill people who do not believe what they do. What they are doing is calling for a "war" (that is their word, not mine) against people who do not follow the tenets of the evangelical church. They are telling this to kids as young 7. How can a child process that kind of information? How can a child at the age of 7 hold a fetus doll and be told that this could have been your friend but a woman aborted it. I'll tell you how that ends up. They go back to their regular schools and they get ostrascized and made fun of and worse yet- they go home and in one ear they are being told God created the world, but their text books say another thing. This leads to frustration and fear and anger and hatred which at some point manifests itself through violence. Heard of Columbine? Flint? Red Lake? The list goes on and on. Preaching radical anything leads to violence, whether it is Islam, Judism, or Evangelism. And preaching violence to children, and this is happening in America no less, in North Da-friggin-kota, is complete criminal child abuse. " "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 19, 2006 4:20 PM:

" Incredulous...I'm going to have to marry you sight unseen if you don't stop making so much sense. ha ha "

Deb wrote on Oct 19, 2006 3:36 PM:

" I just want everyone to know that I had a really good post about how the kids inthe Jesus Camp movie are going to grow up to be school killers. Alas, too much to retype. Incredulous: you pinko commie weirdo "

Incredulous wrote on Oct 19, 2006 2:32 PM:

" Why are we being so hostile to the communists? I'm not a communist, but, then again, neither are the "communist" countries on this earth. They're not truly marxist/socialist societies, they're dictatorships and, unfortunately, the term "communism" has been misused and now takes on a completely different meaning. It's too bad the remnants of McCarthyism still remain. If Christians think they're the last group to be bashed without anyone thinking twice, you better get in line behind the communists, the real ones, that is. "

Online Editor wrote on Oct 19, 2006 2:23 PM:

" To Deb: I don't see anything from you today that was deleted. I'm not sure why it hasn't been posted, I would recommend submitting your comment again. "

Deb wrote on Oct 19, 2006 2:19 PM:

" Online editor: wondering where my post went. Regarding the evangels in Jesus Camp training kids in their "war." It was a direct answer to Mr. E's question. "

Mr. E wrote on Oct 19, 2006 2:02 PM:

" Rhetoric: Wow...what in the world are you talking about.? "Distorted radical politics." Do you have any clue of what you're saying? What are my politics? If I had kids, I wouldn't send them to this church or this camp. But I believe they have the right to teach whatever they want as long as its peaceful. And I will need something more than a movie to give me all the details. I think it's obvious in your 1:41 rant that you are going through a tramatizing life altering experience all your own. I actually feel sorry for you as you wallow in all your negativity. I guess free ideas and discussion are only appropriate if they follow your agenda. "

To Wiccan wrote on Oct 19, 2006 1:49 PM:

" Just a correction on what you think may be taught at these camps. They DO NOT teach them that they are right and everyone else is wrong. These children can make up their own minds as they grow older. As all other religions. Whether children choose to continue being Catholic, Lutheran, Buddhist, Wiccan or whatever other religion they choose to be, it will be their choice. Yet their parents teach them from the time they are little to follow the parents choice of "religion". These children are not being brain-washed. These children are learning the same facts about christianity that you are choosing to teach certain facts about other religions to your children. The things being taught are FACTS. So if you do not agree with these children learning these facts, shouldn't you say that it's not okay for you to teach your children the "facts" about other religions? "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 19, 2006 1:41 PM:

" To Mr. E, actually its you who wants a communist country by supporting this Child Abuse by brainwashing of children with tramatic life altering expereinces. Obviously, this process along with "home schooling" denies these children the science and history that factually contradicts your BLIND FAITH and distorted radical politics. "

Wiccan wrote on Oct 19, 2006 1:03 PM:

" to MR. E: Yes that is what happens. And no i don't find your comments funny but verry disrespectful. A wiccan is also known as a witch FYI. And i just want my family to be given to same respect 4 what we beleave as we give them. We DO NOT go around telling them how wrong they are. How would it make you feel if your child came home telling you why they where forsed to pray or sing prase to one of our gods you don't beleave in. Or your children came home upset because they where told they where trash 4 beleaving in your jesus. Just think about it. These people are brain washing children let them make there own mind that they feel is right and what path they what to lead. My kids are tought all religons From christin to Wiccan as they get older they can chose what feels right for them. These camps do not do that they teach we are right and everyone else is wrong BRAIN WASHING "

To Wiccan wrote on Oct 19, 2006 12:53 PM:

" As I Christian, I do not believe in going around judging others who do not hold the same beliefs as I do. I am taught and believe that no one is to judge another. No matter what your beliefs may be! I teach my children that no matter how someone dresses, what they believe in, or the color of their skin, that they are to show everyone the same respect. So these children who tease your children should obviously be taught the same thing. Don't judge all christians by the fact of what some may do. Not all of us are like that! "

Deb wrote on Oct 19, 2006 12:52 PM:

" Did I really say something too controversial in my last post, or has it just not posted yet? "

Mr. E wrote on Oct 19, 2006 12:26 PM:

" Wiccan: If what you said is a true depiction of how these kids treat you and yours – that's deplorable. Maybe you should cast magical spells on them to be nicer, kinder and gentler. That should do the trick. "

To Rhetoric wrote on Oct 19, 2006 12:17 PM:

" Are you saying that children who are brought up in the Catholic church and taught their ways should be questioned? What about those children who are brought up Lutherans should be questioned? What about those things being taught. I do not believe in what Catholics believe yet I would never question what they choose to teach their children. That is their choice! Everyone has a right to their own beliefs. Just because they do not believe what you believe, makes it wrong! How do you know what you believe is even right? "

wiccan wrote on Oct 19, 2006 12:14 PM:

" It is people like this becky fisher that are going to bring back witch burning in the name of god. And yes these camps are brain washing kids so that when they get old enought to have a say these things will come to light. These same kids that are going to these camps are the same kids telling my child at school that we are going to burn in hell and what trash they are because we are wiccan. I was not rased in a church. Yet i don't go around telling people there religon is wrong and they will pay for it in the after life. Yet these people through there god BS at us daily telling us we are wrong what bad people we are because of what we beleave. no my kids should not have to pray to your god in school. People in ND are freaks and want to hang anyone that dosn't conform to there belefs "

To Mr. E wrote on Oct 19, 2006 12:13 PM:

" You said it right. This church is not teaching children to take up arms or to murder. This church is teaching them it is not okay to do these things. These children are taught the 10 Commandments. Seems like most people in this country has forgotten what they are. These children are taught not to hate. About any mention of "War" in this documentary is the "Spiritual Warfare". The war between good and evil, satan and God. It has nothing to do with physical harm against any other humans. These children along with other Christians throughout the world, are taught to pray about issues going on. Not to fight with violence!! "

Deb wrote on Oct 19, 2006 11:53 AM:

" Mr E - if you read the whole blog you will see that we've already been through this. You're right- they are not telling these kids to take up arms and kill people who do not believe what they do. What they are doing is calling for a "war" (that is their word, not mine) against people who do not follow the tenets of the evangelical church. They are telling this to kids as young 7. How can a child process that kind of information? How can a child at the age of 7 hold a fetus doll and be told that this could have been your friend but a woman aborted it. I'll tell you how that ends up. They go back to their regular schools and they get ostrascized and made fun of and worse yet- they go home and in one ear they are being told God created the world, but their text books say another thing. This leads to frustration and fear and anger and hatred which at some point manifests itself through violence. Heard of Columbine? Flint? Red Lake? The list goes on and on. Preaching radical anything leads to violence, whether it is Islam, Judism, or Evangelism. And preaching violence to children, and this is happening in America no less, in North Da-friggin-kota, is complete criminal child abuse. "

Mr. E wrote on Oct 19, 2006 11:28 AM:

" Great sidestepping in the last few posts to change the topic even though Rhetoric brought up Evolution in his 'October 18, 2006 5:33 PM' post. Now you say the real issue of this blog should be 'Child abuse.' Ok then. But from what I've heard and read, this organization is not training children to take up arms and commit murder. Sounds like you are trying to force what should be taught children, just because you don't agree with this church? Maybe you just want a communist country where everyone believes what you believe. As long as they aren't teaching kids to break the law, give it a rest. "

Deb wrote on Oct 19, 2006 11:19 AM:

" It's pretty easy to see what's wrong with evangelical radicals when you see Jesus Camp. And everyone needs to see it. These people are so completely wacked out it's really funny. Speaking in tongues... ugh. Hilarity. What isn't funny is how sheltering it is for the children that they are abusing and brain washing. No kid needs to grow up like this or be exposed to these freakshows. Love God, be pious, believe in the Bible, but don't abuse children while doing it. "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 19, 2006 10:48 AM:

" To everyone: The real issue of this blog is "child abuse"...by forcing young children to learn radical religious and extreme right wing political issues. Some of them involve life long Trauma experiences. I am still wondering if Child Welfare Services have explored some of these issues? Does anyone have expertise in this area and know how we can legally challenge and/or investigate it? "

Enough wrote on Oct 19, 2006 8:16 AM:

" Who cares as long as you don't push your religion on to people, or preach to people who don't want to be. Give it a rest. Believe what you want to. Everything would work much better of other people would just stop pushing thier ideas down other people's throats. "

Evolution vs Creationism wrote on Oct 19, 2006 8:06 AM:

" NO, I am saying I don't need a faith/religious crutch to help with the unanswered parts of life. You don't need faith to not care that EVERYTHING doesn't have an answer. Religion is basically wa way of explaining the unexplained things in our world. Look at the Greeks for an example. They didn't know what caused thunder or storms ofver the seas...so they created gods to explain the unexplained. Look at any religion in the world they have a creation story of some type. I am perfectly fine not caring about how exactly I got here. I am here, I don't care how. But when it comes down to the E vs C debate for teaching schools. Science should rule over a fairy tale. "

Mr. E wrote on Oct 18, 2006 10:24 PM:

" Also, you believe in some "unanswered parts?" Isn't that faith? 'So you're saying there's a chance...Yeeeaaah!...I read you.' "

Mr. E wrote on Oct 18, 2006 10:19 PM:

" E v.C: According to the Bible, Eve was created from Adam's rib. So that's gross too...Maybe God CREATED those early humans differently...I don't know?? But I guess bacteria, amoeba, whatever, evolving into humans is a little more politically correct for you to try and explain, huh. How did they breed. Wouldn't that be considered inbreeding? Try again... "

Evolution vs Creationism wrote on Oct 18, 2006 9:53 PM:

" Evolution or Creationism...hmmmm I would much rather believe in a science theory with a few unanswered parts than that of the beginning of man starting with inbreeding. If your god created Adam and Eve...and they had 2 sons. That means that Eve had to sleep with her sons..etc...ect...ect... There is something really wrong with that. "

MIke R wrote on Oct 18, 2006 9:13 PM:

" I am not sure how I ended up being accused of saying that Athiesm is a religion. I never said that. All I said in response to a comment that communists killed more people than religious wars is "so you are saying all communists are athiests?" I am not in any way saying that athiesm is or is not a religion. Heck I'm not even sure if it is a word or not. I am just saying that this person is making the assumption that all communists are athiests. They are not. That is all I said. Some people are trying way to hard to read things into these comments that are not there. "

Mr. E wrote on Oct 18, 2006 8:42 PM:

" Rhetoric: What is "Evolution?" How did it create us? What created it? A big ball of cosmic dust? How did that get there? Where is the science to explain that? Science says the universe is so many billions of miles big. What's on the other side? Truth is, science can't explain everything. Somethings require faith no matter how silly they sound. How do explain love for your wife, husband, gay/lesbian partner or whatever? Somethings you just feel and are true without rational thought... This is where extemists, however, can get dangerous. "

Incredulous wrote on Oct 18, 2006 6:35 PM:

" Well said, Rhetoric. It's nice to see my fellow co-conspirator back on the blogs. I thought maybe you'd gotten fired from the Tribune and needed a day off to recover. :) "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 18, 2006 5:33 PM:

" To Barbara Kay. The answer to your previous question is "Evolution" created Incredulous, me, and every other living thing including you. Science supports that...the Bible clearly does not with its story of Adam and Eve. You ask why don't I argue the points you post?.....Because how do I argue with your un-scientific Blind Faith, ignorance, and a "God/Jesus talks to me" mentality in which you suggest your beliefs are the absoulute truth but offer no support except a book written 2000 years ago. A lots happened since then! Your so caught up in your own world that you cannot see the irrationality and ignorance of your arguments. Actually, your posts are so out of reality that everyone reading is aghast. I'm hoping that family or friends intervene (intervention) and try to get you into a de-programing help centre. "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 18, 2006 5:04 PM:

" To Barbara Kay, I am not employee of the Bismarck Tribune and I certainly don't know you (and don't care to). However, for the first time we actually agree on something....I agree that people should have to register with a valid email address but an annonymous name as is the status quo on most message boards. Should Tribune employees be able to post? I don't know the ethics behind this issue, but I'm sure the newspaper industry has a "best practices" position regarding employee participation within its own blogs. "

To Mr. E wrote on Oct 18, 2006 3:07 PM:

" Well put! As a Christian myself, I do not support the hate or judging towards anyone! No matter what stance someone takes on any views, who are they to judge the other? Who are they to say they are right? "

Mr. E wrote on Oct 18, 2006 2:25 PM:

" Barbara: You should really consider 'WWJD' before making comments. As a Christian, I am ashamed by your attacking and hateful posts. "

Incredulous wrote on Oct 18, 2006 11:53 AM:

" Barbara Kay, I don't understand why you would think Rhetoric and I work for the Tribune, although, again, you've insulted more people than you ought to have. The Tribune obviously wouldn't tolerate this kind of behavior, and for you to insinuate that they are less than ethical is a serious accusation, maybe even libelous. I don't know Rhetoric, although I am 99% sure he/she does not work for the Tribune because I believe both Rhetoric and the Tribune have integrity. I am not an employee of the Tribune, but I'm curious to know why you would think that. "

Online Editor wrote on Oct 18, 2006 11:49 AM:

" To Barbara Kay: After an exhaustive investigation I can assure you that neither Incredulous or Rhetoric work for the Tribune. The IP addresses the comments are posted from confirm this. The online department is comprised of three employees, plus myself, although I actually work for the news department. All of us are male and Incredulous has posted on numerous occasions that she is female. There is no conspiracy here, although that might make my job more exciting. "

Wow.... wrote on Oct 18, 2006 11:31 AM:

" ....and people try to discount the fact that differences in religious beliefs are the root cause of all conflicts, personal or governmental. Look no further. Crusades, Holocaust, Terrorism.....all in the name of 'religion'. "

Incredulous wrote on Oct 18, 2006 11:28 AM:

" Barbara Kay, you should be ashamed of yourself. You wrote to Rhetoric, "I feel pity for the mentally disabled, but not for the mentally disabled who attack other people." Is that your roundabout way of calling someone the "r" word? You just compared Rhetoric to a developmentally disabled adult that can in no way defend himself from your attacks? While you meant to insult Rhetoric, you actually fared far worse, in that you insulted an entire population of adults that face discrimination every day from people like you, when all they want is their own place in this world and a little compassion. Not very Christ-like, is it? You have no class, nor do you have a heart. You have shown yourself to be a bigoted egotistical mean woman with no compassion and you resort to playground tactics and bullying when someone doesn't agree with you. And you aren't even clever. Go crawl back under your rock. "

To Dave Bundy and Barbara Kay wrote on Oct 18, 2006 11:23 AM:

" I realize my comment is anonymous, so it carries somewhat little weight, but I know Incredulous and he/she does not work for the Tribune, not even close. I imagine the Tribune would be able to verify that by his/her IP address. "

Today wrote on Oct 18, 2006 10:28 AM:

" I WILL PRAY FOR YOU ALL!! "

Chavez wrote on Oct 18, 2006 9:42 AM:

" To Mike R: Atheism is not a religion. Take this example: Your disbelief in Santa Claus does not make your disbelief in him a religion, does it? Likewise, you disbelieve in all Gods other than your own. I only disbelieve in one additional God--yours. "

Dear "Wake Up" wrote on Oct 18, 2006 9:03 AM:

" Wow... please provide a bibliography for this information. I'd like to see those sources for my own benefit! "

To MikeR wrote on Oct 18, 2006 8:54 AM:

" Yes... atheism is religious. The requirement of faith in unprovable tenets and exercise of those beliefs is religion. Atheists believe there is no God. And while Christians (or any other religion) cannot prove God's existence, atheists cannot PROVE He does not. Therefore, to believe He does not exist requires faith. And since this is their belief and it affects their world-and-life views and behavior, I'd say atheists are religious. "

Kate B. wrote on Oct 18, 2006 8:12 AM:

" I want to congratulate Wake up America on being pretty much the only one that has posted here with FACTS. Mainly with FACTS that aren't "conspiracy theory" backed or facts people think are right. Wake up America you have great knowledge and are well read. Too bad others are too scared to actually listen to reason in debates like this. Even notice when you bring up valid points in a debate like this you either are ignored or bombarded with "scared" spiteful comments? "

Dave Bundy, editor wrote on Oct 18, 2006 6:59 AM:

" To Barbara Kay: This is a serious allegation and one that merits investigation and comment by me if it is true. I would appreciate a call at 250-8266 during business hours to share your suspicions and evidence. "

nutso wrote on Oct 18, 2006 3:30 AM:

" becky fischer (and people like her) are in fact wolves in sheeps clothing. If they where given the chance they would destroy gods world!! "

Barbara Kay wrote on Oct 18, 2006 3:01 AM:

" To Incredulous & Rhetoric--should Bismarck Tribune online employees really being talking to people as badly as this, while hiding behind fake nicknames? I know who you are... . "

Barbara Kay wrote on Oct 18, 2006 1:45 AM:

" To Rhetoric: Stupid men are losers. You reek of stupidity when you degrade, mock, & attack me for my research findings & others whose views you don't agree with. Can you read the story topic at the top of the page & comment on it or on my research or others' opinions? No--you can't--you've proven that point over & over, again. I feel pity for the mentally disabled, but not for the mentally disabled who attack other people. I don't pity you at all... . "

Barbara Kay wrote on Oct 18, 2006 1:27 AM:

" To Incredulous: Did the media create you...or did GOD? Hmmm... . God created you, you fool, but the media has re-created you. "

Incredulous wrote on Oct 18, 2006 12:45 AM:

" I totally agree with Rhetoric. However, if you keep going to the church, you may eventually win an all-expense paid trip to Jonestown. As far as the "dumbing down" of America: Yes, it's all the fault of the pagans and atheists and the liberal university professors with their brainwashing PhDs. They believe in things like science, sex education and the pursuit of knowledge. I'm so glad Christians are trying to throw out all that nonsense and replace it with a theory based, in part, that determines the earth's age by adding up the ages of the people in the bible. Screw carbon dating, that's junk science. Eventually, high school curriculums will include a class on how to survive in the belly of a whale, should they find themselves in that unfortunate predicament. There's only one exam with one right answer, so it should free up time to condemn other people to hell. BTW, the answer: pray real hard. "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 17, 2006 11:16 PM:

" To Barbara Kay...you might want to lay off the "KoolAid" their serving you at your church. "

Barbara Kay wrote on Oct 17, 2006 10:12 PM:

" If you look up certain words in early dictionaries--I have a 1910 one to refer to for the truth--& compare them all to what's written in "new" or "Collegiate" dictionaries published after the 1950s, you'll see for yourself just how the "Dumbing-Down of America" got started--by a handful of nonChristians rewriting our dictionaries, then encyclopedias, then school history books. Do your own word hunting, but here's one word to start researching: "Easter"--my 1910 Dictionary explains that it's a pagan holiday honoring a fertility goddess...what does YOUR dictionary say? What does YOUR church celebrate--Easter or Resurrection Day? My point is made--the schools' & the media's brain-washing of EVERYONE to twist the Christian religion & America's Christian beginnings to create a "new" secular America is invasive. "

Incredulous wrote on Oct 17, 2006 9:41 PM:

" So, Barbara Kay, you are outraged at the fact that only 6 companies control the media in the U.S. (pop. 300 million). Yet you see nothing wrong with one religion dominating the world? (pop. 7 billion). Hmmmm... "

Barbara Kay wrote on Oct 17, 2006 9:35 PM:

" Wow--Nodak John--I'm SO glad there's another person on this thread who is wise to what's going on with American public school systems. America's first primary schools used the Bible to teach children to spell, read, & write. How many people know that fact? Harvard University was our country's first university--& Harvard teachers used the Bible as a base from which to teach every subject to students. How many people know that fact? Between the schools & the media brain-washing everyone (& now with Internet it's gone world-wide big-time!), especially over the past 40-some years, it's no wonder nonChristians are freaking out. They know in their heart they're wrong to believe evil is good & good is evil, but they're brains are mucked up by everything they've learned all around them in their daily lives. So what happens to these confused people? The good-hearted ones freak out & get panicky cuz they don't know what to believe, anymore. How has this secular brain-washing become so incredibly invasive, though? Because of a concerted, full-scale, brain-washing campaign of the public by the following six companies that own the majority of media in the United States of America: (1) GENERAL ELECTRIC OWNS: 30 TV Networks, (including NBC, Telemundo, Bravo, USA, and Sci Fi Channel, and partial ownership of the History Channel, Sundance Channel, and A & E Television Networks); 14 Film Companies (including Universal Pictures, Imagine Entertainment, and Focus Features); one Magazine (Sci Fi Magazine), and seven Websites (including msnbc.com and ivillage.com). (2) DISNEY OWNS: 30 TV Networks (including ABC, ESPN, and the Disney Channel, and partial ownership of A & E, E! Networks, and Lifetime Entertainment Services); nine Film Companies, (including Walt Disney Pictures, Miramax, and Touchtone Pictures); two Radio Stations (Radio Disney and ESPN); four Magazines; four Music Companies; 15 Book Publishing Companies; and 22 Websites (including ABC.com, ESPN.com, NFL.com, and Movies.com). (3) NEWS CORPORATION OWNS: 29 TV Networks (including FOX, FOX Sports Net, Fox News Channel, and FX); 13 Magazines (including TV Guide); 110 Newspapers (including Daily Telegraph, Fiji Times, and the New York Post); three Book Publishers (including HarperCollins); 19 Film Companies (including 20th Century Fox Film Corp., and Fox Searchlight Pictures, and partial ownership of Regency Television, Balaji Telefilms in Asia); one Music Company (Festival Mushroom Records); six Radio Stations; and 20 Websites (including Myspace.com, Ign.com, Foxsports.com, and foxnews.com). (4) CBS OWNS: 22 TV Networks (including CBS, UPN, Showtime, and TMC, and partial ownership of the Sundance Channel); 178 Radio Stations; 18 Book Publishers (including The Free Press, Atria Books, and Kaplan); and 11 Websites. (5) VIAMON OWNS: 25 TV Stations (including MTV, VH1, Nickelodeon, and Comedy Central); three Radio Stations; three Music Companies; one Magazine (Nickelodeon Magazine); five Film Production Companies (including Paramount Pictures, DreamWorks SKG, and MTV Films); and 18 Websites (including mtv.com, vh1.com, and ifilm.com). (6) TIME WARNER OWNS: 35 TV Networks (including HBO, Cartoon Network, TNT, TBS, and CNN, and partial ownership of WB Network, Court TV, and Cartoon Network Japan); 150 Magazines, four Film Production Companies (including Warner Bros. Pictures and CastleRock), and three Telecoms (AOL, Time Warner Cable, and Roadrunner). *** Staggering, isn't it? It’s scary that all Americans & now even people all over the world have been & are are being brain-washed into believing things that aren't true & keeping the truth from everyone, mainly by six companies--SIX!!!--...like people who think that raising Christian chidren who are excited to praise & worship God & Christ Jesus is weird, scary, or wrong... . Idiots--wake up! Wake up, idiots. "

Barbara Kay wrote on Oct 17, 2006 9:24 PM:

" Wow--Nodak John--what a warrior you are! Good job! I'm SO glad there's another person on this thread who is wise to what's going on with American public school systems. America's first primary schools used the Bible to teach children to spell, read, & write. How many people know that fact? Harvard University was our country's first university--& Harvard teachers used the Bible as a base from which to teach every subject to students. How many people know that fact? Between the schools & the media brain-washing everyone (& now with Internet it's gone world-wide big-time!), especially over the past 40-some years, it's no wonder nonChristians are freaking out. They know in their heart they're wrong to believe evil is good & good is evil, but they're brains are mucked up by everything they've learned all around them in their daily lives. So what happens to these confused people? The good-hearted ones freak out & get panicky cuz they don't know what to believe, anymore. How has this secular brain-washing become so incredibly invasive, though? Because of a concerted, full-scale, brain-washing campaign of the public by the following six companies that own the majority of media in the United States of America: (1) GENERAL ELECTRIC OWNS: 30 TV Networks, (including NBC, Telemundo, Bravo, USA, and Sci Fi Channel, and partial ownership of the History Channel, Sundance Channel, and A & E Television Networks); 14 Film Companies (including Universal Pictures, Imagine Entertainment, and Focus Features); one Magazine (Sci Fi Magazine), and seven Websites (including msnbc.com and ivillage.com). (2) DISNEY OWNS: 30 TV Networks (including ABC, ESPN, and the Disney Channel, and partial ownership of A & E, E! Networks, and Lifetime Entertainment Services); nine Film Companies, (including Walt Disney Pictures, Miramax, and Touchtone Pictures); two Radio Stations (Radio Disney and ESPN); four Magazines; four Music Companies; 15 Book Publishing Companies; and 22 Websites (including ABC.com, ESPN.com, NFL.com, and Movies.com). (3) NEWS CORPORATION OWNS: 29 TV Networks (including FOX, FOX Sports Net, Fox News Channel, and FX); 13 Magazines (including TV Guide); 110 Newspapers (including Daily Telegraph, Fiji Times, and the New York Post); three Book Publishers (including HarperCollins); 19 Film Companies (including 20th Century Fox Film Corp., and Fox Searchlight Pictures, and partial ownership of Regency Television, Balaji Telefilms in Asia); one Music Company (Festival Mushroom Records); six Radio Stations; and 20 Websites (including Myspace.com, Ign.com, Foxsports.com, and foxnews.com). (4) CBS OWNS: 22 TV Networks (including CBS, UPN, Showtime, and TMC, and partial ownership of the Sundance Channel); 178 Radio Stations; 18 Book Publishers (including The Free Press, Atria Books, and Kaplan); and 11 Websites. (5) VIAMON OWNS: 25 TV Stations (including MTV, VH1, Nickelodeon, and Comedy Central); three Radio Stations; three Music Companies; one Magazine (Nickelodeon Magazine); five Film Production Companies (including Paramount Pictures, DreamWorks SKG, and MTV Films); and 18 Websites (including mtv.com, vh1.com, and ifilm.com). (6) TIME WARNER OWNS: 35 TV Networks (including HBO, Cartoon Network, TNT, TBS, and CNN, and partial ownership of WB Network, Court TV, and Cartoon Network Japan); 150 Magazines, four Film Production Companies (including Warner Bros. Pictures and CastleRock), and three Telecoms (AOL, Time Warner Cable, and Roadrunner). *** Staggering, isn't it? It’s scary that all Americans & now even people all over the world have been & are being brain-washed into believing things that aren't true & keeping the truth from everyone, mainly by six companies--SIX!!!--...like people who think that raising Christian children who are excited to praise & worship God & Christ Jesus is weird, scary, or wrong... . Idiots--wake up! Wake up, idiots. "

Wake Up America wrote on Oct 17, 2006 8:52 PM:

" Deb, LJK, Mike R, Rhetoric, and the many others reading this thread all have good reasons to be very afraid of religious extremists no matter the religion. Yes, other religions and governments have killed millions in the name of their beliefs, but Christianity is not innocent and therefore special. Let’s frame this just a little. Here is some interesting information to think about. Regarding what was mentioned earlier, the Russians did not kill hundreds of millions. (The Great Purge) Citing Soviet KGB documents, historian Dmitri Volkogonov, head of a special Russian parliamentary commission, concluded that "from 1929 to 1952 21.5 million [Soviet] people were repressed. Of these a third were shot and the rest sentenced to imprisonment, where many also died." As a comparison, the total number of Holocaust victims has been estimated at 9 to 11 million including 6 million Jews. Christianity became legal in the Roman Empire by imperial edict in 315. From 315 to 1492, some 6 million pagans, heretics, atheists, witches and members of other non Christian religious orders were killed in the name of Christianity. In 1492, Columbus ‘discovered’ the America’s in the name of Spain and Christianity. Spanish Crusaders and missionaries followed and by 1900, an estimated 150,000,000 Native American’s had died. During the 20th Century 1,680,000 deaths have been contributed to Christianity. When any faith or member of a particular faith proclaims how righteous it is, I often wonder, how much knowledge of their own history is really known? History is written by those who win the war. Often, all the dirty little secrets of that war are written out of history. "

Rebecca wrote on Oct 17, 2006 6:08 PM:

" To Deb: Sorry it took so long to respond! I've been away. Thanks for the positive comment! "

Rebecca wrote on Oct 17, 2006 6:07 PM:

" First, I still think people are missing the point here. I believe in teaching children about spirtuality and faith. But there is a difference between teaching and manipulation. From what I've seen, the latter is what children are getting. And these aren't adults or even teenagers. They are small children. Secondly, I say believe what you will, it is a free country, but in my opinion this kind of thing does not set right Biblically either. Religiously speaking, Christ taught that children are innocent, yet we see these children reduced to tears because of their "sins" and told that they are bad people when Christ taught that if anything, the woman telling them how bad they are should be emulating THEM. Once again, I don't condemn people who believe this, but I do question the camp and its ethics and I question how Christian it is to practice this kind of behavior. "

Mike R wrote on Oct 17, 2006 6:06 PM:

" To the person posting as To Rhetoric: So you are saying that communist regiems are all athiests? No communist has ever been involved in a religious war? Interesting. "

Incredulous wrote on Oct 17, 2006 4:18 PM:

" You know, Deb, I would have thought that, too, until I saw a documentary called "Rules of Engagement" with actual infrared footage of the compound at the start of the fire and some other interesting testimony and footage. I don't blame Janet Reno and I don't blame President Clinton. I blame the ATF and the typical macho law enforcement/military attitude. Check out the documentary, you won't be disappointed. Netflix it. "

Deb wrote on Oct 17, 2006 3:24 PM:

" To "To Deb": That's my point. "What's wrong here" said that if this church were brainwashing thier members, then the government would intervene. And my point was that they would not/can not/should not. Incredulous: Conspiracy theories abound!! Kidding. that Janet Reno... she was one tough momma. "

Whats wrong here wrote on Oct 17, 2006 3:09 PM:

" Hey Becky brainwash away because at least I knwo exactly what is happening.I may not attend as of right now but after reading how closed minded people are I am thinking honestly about joining. SO feel free to "brainwash" me. Because that is MY choice. "

Incredulous wrote on Oct 17, 2006 2:34 PM:

" And then, if the government does decide that you're acting illegally, they'll accidentally burn and poison you to death using a combination of tear gas and gunfire that ignites a cyanide gas mix, killing lots of women and children. "

To Deb. wrote on Oct 17, 2006 2:33 PM:

" Yes you did try to point out that the government or law enforcement should not get involved unless there is a crime committed. Which is exactly why they have not gotten involved at this point. There is no crime being committed by allowing the freedom of religion. There is no crime being committed in allowing these people to teach the adults and children as well about God. Just let them be! "

Cowboy wrote on Oct 17, 2006 2:29 PM:

" After reading some of these posts on here, I concluded that we must be getting close to full moon night. I checked the calendar. Yes, we are approaching full moon night. "

whats wrong here wrote on Oct 17, 2006 2:27 PM:

" Hey Rhetoric guess what....Kick whomever you want out of office...Still won't stop us from praying and trusting in God..what the heck does politics have to do with believing or not believing anyways? Why does everyone have to put those together? Some of us could care less about who or who not is in office as long as good things are going to happen...hha which I have not seen for a LONG time...but I still trust in God and think people should be able to worship God "

Deb wrote on Oct 17, 2006 2:25 PM:

" To: "What's wrong here" What I was trying to point out (this time without mentioning a certain church, which, I diagree with the editors ruling) is that it is not the government/law enforcement's job to stop churches from brainwashing its members unless a crime is being committed - like with Jonestown, polygamist sects, Branch Dividians, etc. It could be said that all religions and religious studies are a form of brainwashing if taken to literally or seriously. "

To Rhetoric wrote on Oct 17, 2006 2:14 PM:

" The number of people who've died in the name of religion (including those murdered/killed in the name of Islam or the Roman Catholic Church) pales in comparison to those by Communist regimes. Not even close! Do your homework. "

Online Editor wrote on Oct 17, 2006 2:07 PM:

" To Deb: The last line of your last post was the problem. "

To Mike R. wrote on Oct 17, 2006 1:46 PM:

" I am not sure if the other person was in attendance during the making of the film, as it was not filmed in Bismarck or Mandan. The film was filmed partially in Devils Lake and partially in Missouri. I have however attended PowerClub many many times. And the idea you may be getting from your reading is not the right interpretation of what is being taught. People have the freedom of religion. Whether you are atheist, Buddhist, catholic, or whatever religion you choose to be. No matter what religion you are, there is always people out there trying to get rid of it. "

To Kate B. wrote on Oct 17, 2006 1:42 PM:

" These children aren't taught that Islamic children or any other children should not be their friends. These kids are being taught Bible stories like we learned growing up. The only difference is these kids are actually having fun in church where before, the children got bored in church which actually lead to more people leaving the church. These kids are being taught to show God's love to everyone they come in contact with no matter what their background is or what religion they are, etc. "

Mike R wrote on Oct 17, 2006 1:32 PM:

" What's wrong here: You went over to the church and checked it out ONE NIGHT and now you know all about it. Wow you are a fast learner. By the way, did you check it out when the Jesus Camp was in session? If not, what you saw that night is not what is being discussed here at all. "

Kate B. wrote on Oct 17, 2006 12:42 PM:

" The topic is brought up about the children at the camp holding a “fetus” and crying for their “murdered friend”, but what if that fetus was to become Islamic or Athiest or grew up to have an abortion? Are they still that child’s “murdered firend”? If they are that is hypocritical because those children are being taught that "those" types of people are the people that they need to "battle against", so that wouldn't be a friend. "

Dear Rhetoric wrote on Oct 17, 2006 11:20 AM:

" Like I said, our God is a loving God and is also a forgiving God. So about not making it to heaven, I believe you will. About being ignorant, give me a break. I am being open to you, showing that I am open to ignorance. I am very highly educated and come from a great background of diversity. I will listen to every side of a situation and make my opinion after hearing all sides. I am very flexible but will not be flexible on my beliefs in the one and only God. "

whats wrong here wrote on Oct 17, 2006 11:12 AM:

" Hey Rhetoric guess what....Kick whomever you want out of office...Still won't stop us from praying and trusting in God..what the heck does politics have to do with believing or not believing anyways? Why does everyone have to put those together? Some of us could care less about who or who not is in office as long as good things are going to happen...hha which I have not seen for a LONG time...but I still trust in God and think people should be able to worship God "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 17, 2006 11:02 AM:

" One last thing....Americans will be voting (kicking) your GOP religious politics out of office in less than a month! Good ridens. Can you feel our boots on your xxx? "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 17, 2006 10:58 AM:

" So your more righteous than me and I'm living in a messed up world....LOL ha ha ha. Your ignorance only exposes your lack of education and diversity. "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 17, 2006 10:50 AM:

" LOL...I already know the truth.....Radical religion has killed more people in this world than any other disease, movement, or other. Your "end of the world" ..."won't go to heaven" scare tactic is a joke. "

To Rhetoric wrote on Oct 17, 2006 10:09 AM:

" So we see which view this is coming from? Let's just imagine who you voted for in the last election or who you will be voting for in the upcoming elections. Aborted fetuses...are you kidding? Where you there? Probably not! So keep being close-minded in the messed up world you're living in. Someday you will learn the truth. "

To Mike R. wrote on Oct 17, 2006 10:06 AM:

" Why are you fighting so hard against these families who choose to take their kids to a church and yet you say to go ahead and do this but leave others out of it? You are the one who continues to put yourself in the middle of this issue every day. Maybe you should keep yourself out of something you have absolutely no idea about. And to say that children should not be taught about abortion or speaking in tongues. Who are you to decide this. This church in Mandan is not the only church in Bismarck/Mandan that says this is okay. Have you ever thought about Word of Faith, New Song, or many various churches throughout the city? Probably not. You are just one of the people that continues to bring hate and ignorance into a situation that it doesn't need to be brought into. You have no idea what this church or film is truly about. Maybe you should experience it for yourself before you judge. Or a more simple solution, pick up the bible and read it. Then you will see what this church is teaching! "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 17, 2006 9:58 AM:

" Who in the world wants to experience radical religion to see what they are all about. I suppose I could go live with the Taliban too so I could see what they are like.....NO THANKS! The fact is that anyone who is SICK enough to teach children that there is no global warming and traumatize kids with fake dead fetuses for their own political agenda is RADICAL! I don't need to see and experience their church to understand that. "

Who are you to judge wrote on Oct 17, 2006 9:51 AM:

" Okay. So I see a lot of people on here who really have no clue of what is really happening at this church. First and foremost, the church does not teach any child to hate or to judge others. The first thing they teach every child or adult, is that our God is a loving God who will love anyone and forgive anyone no matter what they have done. This church teaches these children to accept others for who they are. PowerClub is a part of a Kids Ministry to teach children about the Word of God and to help each child develop their own personal relationship with God. Maybe some of you adults could learn this! There is nothing wrong with teaching these children that they are loved by God and that if they ever needed anyone to turn to, that God is always there for them to talk to. This church does not teach against other religions. They do not judge against Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, or any other religion. They are there to teach the truth from the Word of God (for those of you who don't know what that is...it's called the Bible). Like I said, above anything else, they teach LOVE! Not hate. And to teach children in this day that it is okay to love, is the most important thing! "

Mike R wrote on Oct 17, 2006 9:32 AM:

" Arguing with a religious fanatic like To Mike R is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig. This person is not worth commenting to anymore. It is obvious that thier religious fanatisism (if that is a word?) has obviously clouded thier judgement to the point that further attemted debate would be pointless. For the rest of the people here: Talking in tongues, trying to heal the sick, crying over abortion, etc. are not things kids should be concerning themselves with. Let kids be kids for a while. Send them to Sunday school. Take them to church if you wish. If they want to grow up totally immersed in religion, then they will do so. Completely smothering them in religious concepts that are not age appropriate as the Jesus Camp does is nothing more than brainwashing. Hey if you want to brainwash your kids - go right ahead. But please don't get holier than thou when someone else does the same thing on a different scale. That is something I have noticed from the religious fanatics - they insist on having the freedom to do thing thier way and want everyone to just let them be, but they are the first in line to tell others what they should be doing. "

whats wrong here wrote on Oct 17, 2006 9:25 AM:

" OK so here is the challange..how about everyone who is against this go over and spend just 1 night at this church to see what is reallygoing on over there. Because like i said I wanted to see it for myself so I did this. Yes Deb I understand the whole thing about doubting and about the education blah blah I also have been in the same place. I do not attend a regular church, I went to school and yes I have a great employment as well, with all the great family and friends. But guess what ..I am smart enough to know that just because something looks and sounds one way does not mena that it is that way. It called checking into it. Of course this movie looks like they are running little boot camps from what they show you. But that is not the case here. You say that the government agrees that education is not brainwashing ..yeah well they all agree that this church is not brainwashing otherwise it would have been stopped as well. No I do not agree with my children learning about abortion (yes I have kids) I complately disagree that kids that young should have to worry about that.(BTW it was a little plastic baby not a half aborted looking baby) I am against abortion and I am against my 3 kids learning about it from anyone other than myself. But just because I disagree with 1 thing does not mean I am going to not find out the facts and be completely against somethign I have no idea about. That is why I found out more about the church. I may choose not to go but I am not going to condemn all others who do. Oh and also Jesus didn't believe in "Relegion" either check up on your bible "

Deb wrote on Oct 17, 2006 9:15 AM:

" I'm with Mike R. Although there hasn't been a suicide bombing from the FIRE camp grads YET, that doesn't mean there won't be any in the future. This camp is teaching intolerence of other religions, lifestyles, adult decisions, and races. Who is to say that these kids won't go back to their schools and bomb the art class a la Columbine because there is a gay kid in the class. Or what about the hatred and intolerence they are being taught against non-evangelicals. Maybe they will hate on Lutherens, Catholics, etc etc. The problem is that there are many (I would say most) Evangelicals, even Fundamentalist Evangelicals who do not preach this hatred and do not want their children exposed to this radicalism... unfortunately, their documentary would be a bore. "

To Mike R wrote on Oct 17, 2006 8:42 AM:

" Read your own post. You're the king of double-speak. How can you accuse anyone of missing any point when you liken (another comparison!) this Jesus Camp to the same extremism as radical muslims? You are sophomoric. This time you get an "F" for "Failure to fool anyone about being anything other than a hater of Charismatic and Evangelical Christians." That much is clear from all your posts. I reiterate: when the F.I.R.E. people begin taking up arms against ANYONE in the name of Jesus and teaching/sending their kids on suicide missions, then you'll have a point and I'll join you in their condemnation. You keep making these comparitive statements then acting as if anyone who takes you at your word is dumb. Doesn't wash. "

Nodak John wrote on Oct 17, 2006 8:09 AM:

" In response to "whats wrong here.. wrote on October 16, 2006 1:50 PM:"Haha Deb sorry but thats funny. SO should we say the schools are brainwashing our kids because they are" There ARE experts in the field of education such as Charlotte Iserbyte who said it well in: "The Deliberate Dumbing Down Of America, Socialist Goals". My Aunt who lived with us was a director of the North Dakota NEA and later the National NEA. I would therefore consider her to also be an expert in the field of education. She too lamented the rate of decline in the level of education in the Public School system (aka the pubic fool system). The average college graduate of today and nearly all the teachers can not pass the ninth grade exam given at the turn of the 19th century, so don't brag about the education in this country. As a nation, our "educational" system ranks BELOW that of Brazil for example. Check it out and quit believing the propaganda "you are the most intelligent students ever seen and you are so much more intelligent than you parents that you should not listen to them". "

Mike R wrote on Oct 16, 2006 9:33 PM:

" To the poster named to Mike R: You make me laugh. You missed the point by so far, I have to wonder if you even bothered to read it first before you commented. Yes, in the past 10 years it has been the radical muslims doing the killing and Not the Christians. We agree on that one. I stated that religeous extremists were guilty of causing the death. I NEVER ONCE mentioned it was Christians. Are not radical muslims considerd religious extremists? You can't even comprehend the English language, and yet you have the nerve to give me an F? That is funny stuff right there. I don't care who you are, that's funny. "

LJK wrote on Oct 16, 2006 8:10 PM:

" OK, after having seen the trailers for this film, my balloon of optimism has been ruptured. Hindenburg-style. This is one freaky, cruel, morally wrong outfit. Oh, yeah- jihadism and religious extremism are alive and well and rampant at this camp. And worst of all it's innocent little kids having their minds twisted through methods of fear and hatred. Way to go, parents. This smacks of the same sentiment and fervor as the Hitler youth organization, only with a different idealogy. And this is being done in Jesus' name?? The original "turn the other cheek", "peace, love and understanding" kind of guy? What an insult. Not to mention that it throws North Dakota into the stone age. "

Incredulous wrote on Oct 16, 2006 5:47 PM:

" OK, Deb, I give in. We can be a couple again, but for Halloween only. "

whats wrong here wrote on Oct 16, 2006 4:13 PM:

" Oh km I am sorry these people are not doing exactly as you do. They are doing their own things and YES now we see that this is the issue. Its not who they are or anything it is that they are making THEIR OWN CHOICE to practice THEIR religion OMG and it happens to be that these people are Christians. SO yes please lets continue to judge them for being who they are. WHat a joke "

Deb wrote on Oct 16, 2006 3:55 PM:

" Incredulous- no worries, it'll still be around for you to see it. Can we still be a Halloween couple? "

Deb wrote on Oct 16, 2006 3:54 PM:

" To "what's wrong here": Sure, you can make the argument that schools are brainwashing kids to believe in things like math, reading, writing, art, music, etc etc. Although, without those things what kind of productive citizens would they be? I prefer to call it "necessary education" rather than brainwashing. And, clearly the government agrees with me, as it is required that kids go to school until they are (I think??) 16. There are no laws about getting religious training. No rules about having to go to church. I don't go to church, could care less about organized religion, I constantly question the existence of God, and for sure do not believe that Jesus is my lord and savior, and guess what- I have a great job, I have a college education, a great family and wonderful friends and believe I live a morally correct life. I do not hurt other people and do my best to do well by my community. I'll take educational brain washing over religious brainwashing any day. I find it hard to believe that you think that having children under the age of 10 holding dead fetus-looking dolls and praying for their "could be friends had they not been aborted" a good thing to do to children. That is harming them mentally and is abuse in my opinion. "

km wrote on Oct 16, 2006 3:09 PM:

" I comment very little on the trib site and have tried to keep to myself on this Jesus camp thing but.....kids flopping around on the floor, crying, freaking out, that just ain't right. I went through this thing (as a young adult) and wanted to explore different organized religons and really I did take something positive from each church. Religon still has no place in my life. God and being a loving caring person does but I am not going lay on the ground, cry and freak out about it. Incredulous, I think something stronger than St john's may be needed. "

Incredulous wrote on Oct 16, 2006 2:36 PM:

" Barbara Kay: I'm serious about the Enya and the St. John's Wort. And, you mustn't have read all religion-related posts from the last couple months if you think Christians are getting the short end of the stick on these blogs. I've been condemned to hell at least 8 times by one member. "

Incredulous wrote on Oct 16, 2006 2:33 PM:

" Deb! You're seeing this movie without me and the poster with many names? What?!? We're no longer a Halloween couple. :) "

whats wrong here.. wrote on Oct 16, 2006 1:50 PM:

" Haha Deb sorry but thats funny. SO should we say the schools are brainwashing our kids because they are teaching them Algebra, foreign laungages, biology or whatever the case may be. I know PLENTY of adults who have a hard time comprehanding that. This is just becoming a joke, a place so that someone can complain about something they have no idea about. I am actaully very sad that the place I call home (Bismarck ND)Actaully is like this. Hey yes please stop our children from learning about God instead lets teach them to judge everyone and everything that does believe. Get a grip please. The only harm that anyone is doing is turning everything into something else. It's a church so let them worship God. At least she had the courage to come out with this movie. I mean the church has been there for this long and no one had an issue so move on and get past it already. "

Deb wrote on Oct 16, 2006 12:04 PM:

" Right on Rebecca - you and I know that we are on the opposite sides of the abortion debate, but we completely agree that the blatant abuse of children in this documentary is the problem. Maybe you wouldn't use the word "abuse" but I think that anytime a child is coerced into thinking or doing something that most adults even find difficult to comprehend (religion, war, abortion), that can be considered child abuse. I get to see this movie tonight or tomorrow. I can't wait. As though I need another reason to question organized religion... "

Barbara Kay wrote on Oct 16, 2006 11:06 AM:

" To the online editor--Granted. Still, for those afraid to put their real names in the "Name" box, if they'd input a cool nickname, at least, it would make it easier for others to give them a pat on the back or to comment on something they've said. It would just make dialogue clearer, that's all. "

Online Editor wrote on Oct 16, 2006 10:48 AM:

" To Barbara Kay and others: We prefer if people don't use real names when commenting. The comments are meant to be anonymous. "

Barbara Kay wrote on Oct 16, 2006 10:37 AM:

" Sorry!!! Mike R just got a "well said" from me a few minutes ago--I meant my comments FOR the anonymous person, called "To MikeR" (I didn't catch the word "To") who responded to Mike R's deplorable comments about extremists on 10/16 @ 9:41 am. People--please use your real name on these topics pages, or at least a cool nickname. Thank you. In NO way do I agree with Mike R for his Oct. 15 comment at 9:51 pm or any of his other comments. QUITE the contray! Thank you. "

Barbara Kay wrote on Oct 16, 2006 10:24 AM:

" Well said, MikeR, & bravo to Virginia! I've noticed on other topics, that as soon as the Christian-haters hear you're a Christian (sometimes, they merely assume) they pummell the Christians left 7 right, often two or more ganging up on a particular Christian's comments or beliefs (Yikes! "Aren't we still all living in America?"--that's what one of them threw into a Christian's face on the "Editing God Out" topics page! Well...right back atcha, dude.) to try to force them away & stop commenting. Typical. Virginia's correct here--the persecution is huge on these pages...I can take it & so can Virginia & MikeR & the rest of the vocal right on these pages. Satan's running around in a major panic at the last quarter like a scavenging roach in the dark of the night when someone exposes it with a bright LIGHT. "

To MikeR wrote on Oct 16, 2006 9:41 AM:

" There you go again! Your hatred is blinding you and tha facts do not support your claim. It is reprehensible that even death could be attributed to religious extremism, but there are examples; however, no religious group or groups compare in deaths accounted for in comparison to Communists- who are atheists- outpacing even the Nazis who were/are haters. When added up, the masses "purged" by Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, et al, their numbers are in the hundreds of millions. In the past ten years, radical Muslims have been the culprit... not Christians. For your homework so far, you get an F. "

TimJ wrote on Oct 15, 2006 11:08 PM:

" There is a difference between a radical Christian and a fanatical Christian. The word "radical" speaks about living a way of life that goes to the root of one's Christian faith. It speaks about repentance and having a change of heart. A fanatical Christian is one who uses Christianity to justify inappropriate behaviors, or violent behavior. A fundamental Christian is one goes back to the funadmentals of Christianity to lay the foundation of one's religious faith. A cafeteria Christian is one who picks and chooses from Christianity whatever suits him, but rejects the real challenges that can be found in Christianity. "

Mike R wrote on Oct 15, 2006 9:51 PM:

" Religious extremists have caused more human lives to be lost than by any other cause. How many wars have been fought by religeous extremists over the past 10 years? How many are being fought right now? I think this Jesus Camp is a training ground for religeous extremists. I use the word extremists because this camp is definitely not what you would call the norm, now is it? "

Nodak John wrote on Oct 15, 2006 8:26 AM:

" "Evangelical Fundamentalists". Who are these individuals who are being attacked from so many sides? Is your opinion of "Evangelical Fundamentalists" based on some person's opinion of what a Fundamentalists are? I see where some object to asking people to act responsibly. No one forced anyone to take up weapons to rob and protect prostitution rings and narcotics sales territory. No one forced them to propagate and then ask me to feed their offspring. As a Fundamentalist Christian, I help those who are willing to help themselves. For those who expect me to support their drug habits and profligate lifestyle I am considered to be a "Hypocrite" because I will not support their choice of "lifestyle", nor do I expect government to do so either. It is all covered under one "nasty, dirty little word" called responsibility. As to party labels: We tried to get the police chief of St. Paul Minnesota to shut down an apartment complex which specialized in drug parties, the house next door which sold heroin and the house across the street from that which sold meth, but he did nothing. The chief was supposedly a Democrat. Am I to conclude that all Democrats are therefore bad? Go back to the roots of the real Democrats and the real Republicans if you want to see what real people stood for. IMNSHO the modern "Democrats" and "Republicans" are but prostitutes selling their wares to the highest bidder. So since I call myself a Fundamentalist Christian, does that mean that others who seek that label are the same as me? Most likely not, because we are individuals with individual responsibilities. "

Virginia wrote on Oct 14, 2006 11:08 PM:

" Persecution paves the platform. You go girlfriend! Standfirm! The Devil is angry, but more than that he is scared. Listen to the cries in the messages, he is scared. The Devil is shaking in his boots. Keep resisting him and he will flee from you. We know that we are "more than conquerors through CHRIST who Loves us". Keep overcoming evil with good. GOD is for you, who can stand against you. GOD BLESS you real BIG!!! "

Barbara Kay wrote on Oct 14, 2006 5:22 AM:

" Funny how children mesmerized by & chanting songs to Satan (like those at Ozzie, Fifty Cent, & other so-inclined heavy-metal, rock, or rap concerts in our very own tax-supported sports domes), while flicking their bic lighters in dazed unison, to their "idols" (God warns us NOT to worship idols...) on stage (aka: concert hall "altars"), are no big deal to the Christian-hating, angry atheists, pagans, humanists, etc. These lost children scrimp, save, or steal to buy their idols' CDs, T-shirts, caps, magazines, & other mementos to prove to the world they are "followers"--not of Christ Jesus or God--but of their satanic idols. These actions by children, also, are no big deal, to the Godless. BUT children worshipping God with hymns in church is considered "brainwashing" by these poor, twisted, misguided souls. Funny how evil people or the Godless try to twist good so it appears evil & twist evil so it appears good...hey--didn't God WARN us not to fall into the trap of Godless thinking like that??? Ya, sure—ya betch’a—He sure did…in The Holy Bible! As far as I'm concerned, I hope Pastor Becky Fischer keeps the faith & keeps up the good work. I'd rather walk down a dark alley with a group of Christian children following me, than a group of Satan worshippers... . "

TimJ wrote on Oct 13, 2006 9:53 PM:

" I haven't seen the documentary, "Jesus Camp," but have both positive and negative comments about it. One negative comment came from an article published on the Catholic News Service web site today. Quoted was Heidi Ewing, the Catholic co-director of "Jesus Camp", where she talks about filming scenes for the documentary in New Life Church in Colorado Springs with Pastor Ted Haggard, head of the National Association of Evangelicals. She talks about how Haggard mocked a Catholic cameraman from England in the presence of 3,000 people in his church during the filming. She goes on to say that about 30 comic-tracts by Jack Chick Publications attacking the Catholic Church were distributed in the church. My question is: if "Jesus Camp" is about spreading love, unity, and salavation, why was bigotry, hatred, and mockery a part of this project? "

Rebecca wrote on Oct 13, 2006 6:15 PM:

" To what's wrong here: I think the reason this film makes people uneasy is not because of their beliefs but because of the parallelisms between what they see these very young children doing and the roots of extremist religion which leads to war, unacceptance, and generally closed mindedness towards reason. Kids going to Bible camp doesn't bother me; kids using words like "war" and "enemies" to describe non-Christians does, especially when a 7 year old has no conception of what those words mean. I am pro-life, but sobbing over the victims of abortion when they don't even understand what abortion is seems to me like brainwashing and manipulation of a child's sensitive nature and makes me, and others uneasy. "

whats wrong here wrote on Oct 13, 2006 12:39 PM:

" OK so here we go someone felt uneasy so we took God out of school. Someone disagreed so we took God out of workplaces. Someone was treated unfairly so we took God out of marriage. Someone was confused so we took God out of friendship. People were too busy so we took God out of family. I think I am catching on to what som of the people are saying here..someone is tired of hearing about about kids shooting kids in schools and kids committing suicide and kids doing drugs and joining gangs and busting up their cars every summer so hey lets take God out of church as well. Lets take God out of our children. Man why didn't we figure that out earlier ....Get a grip Bismarck!!! Everyone is complaining about what EVERYONE else is doing and fighting to have it their own way yet you blame this church for brainwashing and trying to convert people into a cult. Honestly I don't go to this church but just like EVERY other church across America they all have their own rights and beliefs and from what I see Beckys are just more open and updated. So what. Noone is being harmed here besides the control freaks who have nothing better to do than point fingers at children learning and praising God. If these kids and parents are making that choice and it is proven NOT ot be a cult out they would have been shut down already let them keep our kids wanting and hungry for God's word. Maybe more adults need to start figuring out its not the churches and kids doing wrong here but all of us who are allowing everyone to control our beliefs. But yeah what would I know I probably am in a cult and voted for Bush and can't be just a normal everyday person who is tired of everyone so quick to judge at anything new. "

To Mike R wrote on Oct 13, 2006 10:15 AM:

" No, no, no, MikeR, I get it. Taking a page from your logic book, I can see you've done what a pedophile would do; explain his actions to justify your meaning. When you write something you should be more careful to express yourself in less-extreme superlatives. You could've used the term "anyone" instead "pedophile" to make your point. Your resolve to keep what you think is the intellectual high ground in this discussion will be matched by mine so let's agree to disagree. What I'll bet we both agree on- stripping away the biases of the filmmakers and just letting F.I.R.E. be F.I.R.E.- is that we find their tactics and message bizarre... at a minimum! Just knowing what I know about Charismatic doctrine makes me shudder and I wish parents were more discerning. "

concerned citizen wrote on Oct 12, 2006 3:55 PM:

" Nice picture of Becky Fischer in the paper, but her so-called camp is a real negative influence in our state and community. I have seen the movie. It should be a reminder to everyone, whether they are church people or not, that religious fanaticism that spreads hate and intolerance is always a bad thing. These children are not encouraged to think about important matters of faith. They are trained to be thoughtless and disrespectful. If more people see the movie, maybe fewer people will get sucked into submitting their kids to such blatant mistreatment. "

I Listen to God wrote on Oct 12, 2006 3:29 PM:

" To "What"---I don't think that was God talking to you--sounds more like satan--he is very clever and can disguise himself as something good. That's where being filled with the holy spirit helps--you are able to discern between God talking to you or the enemy. "

Check your head wrote on Oct 12, 2006 2:45 PM:

" Right on, Travis! It's rare to see good sound logic in a discussion of religion on this site and many of us feel the same way. "

Mike R wrote on Oct 12, 2006 1:42 PM:

" To Mike R: My writing comprehension is just fine. I compared a tactic used by 2 different groups. comparing that one tactic does not mean that I am comparing the 2 groups in thier entirety. People like you evidently have trouble understanding basic concepts like that. That is how these discussions get so far off track. People like you who try to hard to read more into every comment then is really there. By the way, just to illulstrate my point. Have you ever heard of the color lime green? If a car is lime green in color, does that mean I am trying to compare the taste of a lime to a car? No. I am comparing the color of the lime to the color of the car. I am not comparing the lime by itself to the entire car. See you can compare certain aspects of different things without comparing the whole thing. It all goes back to common sense. Don't try to find the hidden meaning in my words here. There isn't any. Just plain and simple english. Hope you can understand that. "

Jeff wrote on Oct 12, 2006 10:40 AM:

" These so called "Jesus Camps" are no better than the propaganda the Nazi's and others use. It is hateful and no real follower of Jesus Christ would believe anything stated in these camps. They are indoctrincation camps for the right wing extremists some of them so called evangicals that want to have our society no better than the Islamic controlled societies of the world. So we wont have Mullahs telling us what do to we will have Bishops, Pastors etc. telling us how and what to do. "

JamFan wrote on Oct 12, 2006 10:17 AM:

" What I have seen saying all along about how the GOP and George Bush have been using Evangelicals, will soon be validated by a new book that is coming out next Monday. David Kuo who wrote "Tempting Faith" had such great conservative and christian credentials that he was put in charge of King George's Faith Based Initiative program. In his book, David outlines, how George and the GOP uses christians just to get elected. They have actually done nothing in the last six years, passed zero legislation, that promotes the social issues that are so near and dear to Christians on the right. He says they would not fund the faith based initiative with any amount of substantial money, and verbally abused Evangelicals and right wing Christians, even calling their leaders like James Dobson and others, nutballs and whackos. Karl Rove insulted these people regularly. I have been saying all along, before the election they will grab a Bible and wrap themselves in an American flag to ask for their votes, but the day after election they go right back to doing the bidding of those who gave them the big money to run. It is time for conservative Christians and Evangelicals to wake up and stop being insulted by the GOP. There is a political party whose primary platform is taking care of Jesus' flock first and the extremely wealthy second. You could vote for them instead. The platform of this party is prochoice but not pro-abortion, that concept is a scam. This party is tolerant of Gays and feel they should have equal rights. It is OK to disagree with these positions and still realize that the GOP is not really doing anything to further your cause on abortion or gays anyway. Meanwhile, the GOP is passing tax cuts for the extremely wealthy and balancing the books by cutting programs for Jesus' flock, the disabled and disadvantaged, children, the elderly, veterans. The choice is yours. I report, you decide. "

JamFan wrote on Oct 12, 2006 9:57 AM:

" The words of Travis Schmidt are so compelling, I could never have said it better myself. God is so great that many paths to God and Heaven have been provided, witnessed by so religions that seek a concept of God and Heaven. Religions that say they have the only true word of God, and the only true religion endorsed by God actually diminish God. What they are in effect saying is that God is so small that only one religion is provided that will allow only about 1% of the entire human race over the history of the world to know God and enter heaven. They are brainwashing their kids to think that God only visits their churches. Well, God is so great that all men, everywhere in the world, during the entire history of mankind have been given a path. 100% are potentially eligible. Praise be to the God of all of mankind. "

To Mike R wrote on Oct 12, 2006 9:40 AM:

" Spin it to try and make a positive thing of it? Kind of like you're explanation here? You're doing the same thing by "clarifying" your remarks yet no one is comparing what you're doing to what a pedophile would do. Your writing comprehension needs some work. When you begin mentioning the similarities of two groups its called a "comparison"... look it up. I understand your point; however, if that guy and his family gets involved in that ministry, he will find out exactly what they are: kooks or a misportrayed Christian sect. I can't thnk of a better way to find out, rather than blindly taking others' word for it... including the ministry folk. That ministry will show its hand for good or bad independently of agenda-driven filmmakers. "

Mike R wrote on Oct 12, 2006 8:30 AM:

" wow: I am sorry to hear about your reading comprehension difficulties, but if you would calm down for about 10 seconds I will try to dumb it down for you. I never tried to make a moral equivilance between the ministry and child molesters. What I did was attempt to show that talking directly to the Jesus camp people may not be the best way to get the "real" story. They are going to spin it and try to make it a positive thing. Just like the child molester tries to spin his crime. I am not saying that the 2 are related in any way. Just saying that no matter what the cult is or no matter what caliber of cimininal you are, you are always going to try to put a positive spin on it when you want support. Is that better? Were you able to grasp the basic concept this time? "

Travis Schmidt wrote on Oct 11, 2006 11:06 PM:

" Finally, a lengthy discussion involving religion and god. Glad to see numerous people voicing their opinions. I respect and appreciate all of them. I guess I will add my two bits. I am not going to make judgments about a film I haven't seen in its entirety, but I will comment on religion as a whole. I struggle with religion and god every day of my life. I find it hard to believe that there is one true religion that will get you to heaven. With billions (I think a little over 7 billion) of people on earth practicing what seems to be millions of religions, how would a fair and righteous god only allow a certain religion into heaven. You would have to be naive to believe that there is only one religion that will get you to heaven. I've met many people who believe this and I struggle with their intolerance. I think there are many paths to the top of that mountain. I don't even think you need to practice a certain religion. I don’t think god is as strict as we are lead to believe. What I think is key is having a relationship with god and trying to do as much good as possible in this world. Religions were created by man and all have their faults. Everyone practicing religion is trying to get to a better place after they die. Fundamentally most major religions have the same core values. Who is to say there weren't many prophets from god, such as Jesus, Buddha, and Mohammad? We could all be heading to the same place. It seems organized religion has caused more division than anything else in the history of the world. The majority of the founding fathers believed that Jesus, Buddha, and Mohammad were great moral teachers, but not “from” god. Who is to say they weren't inspired by God? The bible was written by man and has fallacies. You can't take certain parts of it literally and others not. The post that included the verse about slaves is a great example of this. What I believe it comes down to is trying to do as much good in this world as we can and having a relationship with god. I think the true understanding of a higher power is to complex for us to grasp. I hope that Becky Fisher (and those that believe the same as her) aren't exposing children to things in this world before they are mature enough to understand it and make their own choices about it. I really hope they aren't making Christian soldiers (the "military" meaning of the word). The last thing we need is more fighting in the name of god. Let’s go out and make a difference in peoples lives. The majority of us know right from wrong. I am looking forward to seeing the movie “Jesus Camp.” "

Wow wrote on Oct 11, 2006 9:53 PM:

" I cannot believe how vitriolic the anti-Christians' views are. Now people such as Mike R. find a moral equivalence between the ministry in Mandan and child molesters? A gnostic evangelist/proselytizer like JamFan gets to take swipe at Christians for doing the same thing he is... preaching and trying to persuade others to a point-of-view? These guys are the proverbial "pots calling the kettles black." Get a grip, Fellows. Take the blue pill... the blue pill! "

What! wrote on Oct 11, 2006 6:17 PM:

" Dear "I listen to God": I guess I didn't think of it like that. One time God came to me in a vision..she was female, black, and a lesbian...a close resemblance to Condoleeza Rice, although she had a complete different mentality. Thanks for reminding me! "

Mike R wrote on Oct 11, 2006 5:46 PM:

" Learned the truth: You learned the truth from talking with people from that church? Yeah that's a good way to get the "real" perspective on things. Try talking to a habitual child molester and they will tell you how much they "love" children and just want to show thier affection. You can make just about anything sound harmless and positive if you put enough of the right spin on it. I am sure that is how many of the current congregation got sucked in as well. "

learned the truth wrote on Oct 11, 2006 4:27 PM:

" OK I am just wondering if anyone actually read the article....yes I do agree that it is alittle scarey from all the things I have heard not from the people involved but the people who have no idea or who have different beliefs. I agree that some of these things children should not have to worry about at such a young age and I would not want a church being the one to tell my kids to prey for aborted babies but instead they should pray for things that they are surrounded with as children because they have a hard enough time growing up without having to face those things right now. But my point is that I decided to find out for myself so I met with some of the adults and children that go to this church and wow its completely different than what everyone here is making it out to be. This is NOT brainwashing!! I think its funny everyone is turning this to they are worshipping Bush instead of seeing it for what it truly is. We are supposed to pray for out leaders no matter who they are. Rather its Bush, Clinton who cares they are praying FOR our leaders that they make the right choices for Gods people. But the first chance people get to judge and change things from what they really are and to point the finger everyone jumps on it. I was on this wagon at first but I am now getting off. I see that what they are doing is teaching children in an updated way NOT brainwashing and who knows maybe I Will start attending and bringing my children. ANd yes I know I Will get great comments about me abusing my children and feel free to post them because my children are strong, well educated, loving kids and they will be able to make their own choices if they would like to go or not. Oh and just so everyone knows..just because people have a different religion or belief than you does NOT make them child abusers and brainwashers. I grew up in a penticostal church and I never wanted to go to church but was forced until I was old enough to make my own choice at least tehse kids are wanting to go and finally love learning about GOd. Mayeb we should all take a lesson so our children want the same "

I listen to God wrote on Oct 11, 2006 12:09 PM:

" This is in response to "What": You wrote "If you are talking to God, it's praying. If God talks back, it's schizophrenia" I guess you don't have a conscious then because who do you think is talking to you telling you "not to do this or that?" or that "gut" feeling you get or the "knowing" that something isn't right?? I pray you don't listen to the voice of darkness! "

JamFan wrote on Oct 11, 2006 12:05 PM:

" I use words like talking, praying, or communicating with God directly, only as a way to communicate to others in physical language something that is really spirtual. What I do is really more of mediation. Many Christians believe that God is only a little old guy with a beard, who sits on a throne, in amansion with many rooms, with streets of Gold out front. These perceptions diminish God. Where do they get this? From the Bible and their preachers. When you ask Evangelics who or what they think God is, many can not even answer coherently. Some do attempt to get it right. When you say very much more than simply "God is" you are in danger of diminishing God. Gnostics seek to "know God" seek "the knowing" and "the knowledge" meditating and communing directly with God. Churches want you to come on down so they can tell you what to "believe." Believe in their doctrine. Believe that the Bible is the Absolute word of God. Believe the unbelievable. Gnostics have always been considered heretics and were slaughtered by Christians for 15 centuries for their beliefs. Their biggest threat to churches were their knowledge that you didn't even need a church to know God. Didn't need their selective and edited Gospels. Didn't need their doctrines. The threat of the truth was just to much for them. If folks could "know" God through direct mediation and didn't need churches to tell them what to believe, then, I guess, Churches could cease to exist. Can't have that. So "off with their heads." Exterminate those Gnostic heretics. Burn their writings. Not only that, lets burn all the gospels of christians who do not believe in the Triune God. To many of them. Whoa, we better kill them to. Welcome to Christianity. This all actually happened back in the 4th century and beyond. It has led us to where we are today. Does all this sound a lot like what was being taught to these poor helpless children in the Jesus Camp? Get ready for war! We (our beliefs) are under attack. Kill the heretics. "

Salvation is Freedom wrote on Oct 11, 2006 12:03 PM:

" At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven?" > He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven." Matt. 18:1-3. "

Wake Up America wrote on Oct 11, 2006 11:42 AM:

" Greg Camp and JamFan are both absolutely correct. Again, man made god in his own image. If you have studied history you’d know that. You’d also know that Christianity is a pagan cult. All of the core rituals and beliefs can be traced back long before Christ was even born. Early Christian leaders adopted these rituals and beliefs to help pull in members of the larger and more dominant belief systems to help build a stronger Christian church. Christian leaders have always manipulated the bible as needed, interpreting it to suit the politics of the time. The same interpretations are being made today. There is a problem with this whole discussion that no one has addressed yet. Both sides know they are right. One side ‘knows’ they are right because god and their interpretation of the bible tells’ them they are right. No argument, however logical or historically correct it might be, will change their mind. The other side ‘knows’ they are right because their education, experience, logic, and knowledge of history tells’ them they are right. No argument based primarily in faith and doctrine will change their mind. Isn’t freedom great? "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 11, 2006 11:06 AM:

" To Moviefan, This movie was voted "The Scariest Movie" at one film festival. I have seen the movie at the Lagoon Theatre in Minneapolis. It will definately show all Bismarck residents how radical these folks are. Scary does not even begin to describe it. "

What! wrote on Oct 11, 2006 11:00 AM:

" "If you are talking to God, it's praying. If God talks back, it's schizophrenia" -unknown "

Online Editor wrote on Oct 11, 2006 10:55 AM:

" We hope to post seven clips from the movie later this afternoon or tomorrow. "

JamFan wrote on Oct 11, 2006 10:50 AM:

" Rhetoric's words are a little strong but he does have a point. Evangelicals support the GOP because of their "imaginary" support of certain social issues. They have controlled Congress now for a decade and all 3 branches for 6 years. They have intruduced bills on abortion, flag burning, gay marriage, and illegal immigrants, even this year. They have passed.....nothing. The only thing this Congress has actually done is give big tax breaks to the Moneychangers in the Temple, the wealthy, CEO's, and big oil and energy companies. They have broken all records for "Pork" spending and non-defense spending is up 36%. They have run up a debt that is unprecendented in the history of the world. Their answer? In the last two budgets they have started to cut programs for Jesus' flock. Yep! Cut money for programs for children, the poor, seniors, the disadvantaged and disabled, even Veterans. If Jesus were alive today and was elected to the Senate, what do think the chances are that he would go to Washington, give big tax breaks to the wealthiest 2% of Americans and then start cutting programs for the most needy in our society, or Jesus' flock. Not a chance. But in the upcoming election the GOP will grab a Bible, wrap themselves in an American Flag, and the Evangelicals will vote for them again. Sad. Evangelicals will scream about abortions but say nothing about all the babies slaughtered in Bagdad by bombs hitting civilian areas at the order of Geroge Bush. Then he warned our press not to show pics of mothers in Bagdad walking the streets carrying their babies with the heads blown off. The rest of the world saw these pictures and are aghast that we re-elected this guy. Where is there moral outrage at the GOP? "

moviefan wrote on Oct 11, 2006 10:40 AM:

" "Jesus Camp" sounds like a great movie. I hope it comes to the Bismarck theatres. Call the manager at Grand Theatre (222-1607) and encourage them to bring the movie. Plenty of people would come to see it. "

cac wrote on Oct 11, 2006 10:38 AM:

" Fundamentalist Christian ideals foster intolerance. It is sad. The movie made me shake in my booties...and not for God-fearing reasons! I fear for these kids and how they will treat others as they grow up. I do not foresee a lot of love, acceptance, nurturance and peace, but instead, as the movie suggests, war. "

Rhetoric wrote on Oct 11, 2006 10:01 AM:

" I see the whole "Jesus Camp" congregation is posting. That also means the whole congregation is reading. So read this: You are sick demented (I say criminal) for forcing young children to be subject to this mental trauma. How would you like it if I showed them pictures of the 655,000 Iraqis (See CNN News today on the human cost of war in Iraq) many of them blown to bits or shot in the head because of your GOP president. How about I show them the pictures of poverty and violence in our inner cities that force younsters to join gangs and kill each other while the GOP cuts funding for their schools, housing and police. I'm sure you wouldn't want these kids to see these GOP political policies and make them cry and protest!!! "

WHAT? wrote on Oct 11, 2006 9:46 AM:

" To all Born Agains- I understand your views and you have the right to praise what ever god you want. More power to you! Its not a bad thing to praise the lord if you believe. You are giving children a foundation in which to believe something out their is bigger then them- This is not bad. Two questions: If your son or daughter were to be in a political postition would you want them to impose laws on all of us because you strongly believe in the cause, and only you are right. Or do you have an open enough mind to set your beliefs aside and let other religions also chose what they consider to be right? (ex. blood infusions, abortion, not teaching evolution, movies that are produce that you find evil) Second question is Do you believe that god also left us with the option to make right or wrong decision. God did not even want to force his beliefs on everyone- He left it to US to chose to either believe his word vs. what you consider the devil? Just a note your religion is not what is hard to swallow, it is that people are feeling you would force everyone to also believe what you believe. Making it an us against them battle. Do you guys understand that? "

JamFan wrote on Oct 11, 2006 9:44 AM:

" To the gentlemen who accused me of being a cult. Well, I am only one. You need more than one to be a cult. I will share by views, but brainwashing is something that certain churches do, even to their defenseless little children. Moreover, I am not trying to influence politicians to legally impose my views or philosphy on the rest of the people in the country. I only ask folks to seek God from within. It is pure communication with God, not influenced by what a lot of "guys" wrote 2000 years ago in the Middle East. Or what your preacher shouts at you every Sunday in church. If you are brainwashed by the comments then you should be easy prey for any Evangelical Church. "

JamFan wrote on Oct 11, 2006 9:33 AM:

" I am most proud to see so many of you speaking up against a movement that gets so much press, but without the proper scrutiny that would shed more light on it's dark side. I am tired of seeing politics in American being defined by what Evangelicals think. They quote the Bible as though everyone actually believes the biggest lie in the history of mankind, that it is the ABSOLUTE word of God. It is absolutely the ABSOLUTE word of Man. It's not that there isn't good teaching in the Bible, because there is. An accurate history book it is not. But to quote it as though it should be some sort of Mantra that America should use to govern itself by is absurd. The is one scripture that says "it is OK to beat my slave so long as I don't kill him." Duh! This is just one of many. Don't forget the ones about women covering their heads and not being aloud to speak in church. And I guess we should all be slaughtering animals at the alter every Sunday. The men who wrote the bible, mostly scibes, wrote the words of men who were inspired by God, but were also influenced by the socio/political influences of the their times. And there were so many Gospels left out just because they were not believed by the guys who were in charge at the time. God (nor Jesus) ever wrote a gospel, started a church, wrote a doctrine, built pagan symbols, or elected men to be God-like leaders. I like the earlier writer in these pages who said, "Man has made God in his own image." There is so much about Evangelical christianity that is man made it is almost Pagan. But Jesus, in his final hours, when asked by his disciples what they were to do after he was gone, how would they find him, find God, find heaven. He said, don't worry, you will be sent the "Inner Counselor." Jesus did not say that he was going to write them a gospel, build a church, create a doctrine, give them a Pope, or even a road map to heaven. He told them that the answer was inside them through direct communication with God. "

To 1st Amendment wrote on Oct 11, 2006 9:12 AM:

" You are foolish. Christian Fundamentalism akin to Wahabism? I reiterate you are foolish. You do not WANT to see much less know the difference. Fundamentalists in Bismarck: have you ever had any meaningful interaction with them? It is quite clear you have not. I have, and while we may not subscribe to the same theology, I can say the only thing Wahabis and Fundamentalists have in common is that they are human, breathe air, eat food, drink water and procreate. Fundamentalist churches have people of varied political and socio-economic stripes. But you or Philips wouldn't know that because he had an agenda and anything can be written in ways to "purport and support" an ideologue. Wahabi schools teach students to hate and take up arms. Fundamentalist churches teach members to hate sin and take up the matter in prayer FIRST. If this leads to any verbal opposition of social ills, then Fundamentalists are disparaged. I'm not a fan of protests and I think they are counterproductive, but tell me when any Fundamentalist/Evangelical took up arms? And don't throw the names of anti-abortion people like Kopp from NC who were willing to murder abortion providers because Evangelicalism or Fundamentalism did not drive his actions. "Justifiable murder" is not a tenet of any Christian sect including Evangelicalism and Fundamentalism, so no one can tag that on to them. Nope, you are foolish, 1st Amendment, to equate Wahabism with Christian Fundamentalism... as foolish as you are willingly ignorant and/or spiteful become of some past or present offense. And if "offenseiveness" is the measure of being equated with Wahabism or other Muslim extremism, then you, too, are akin to a Wahabi. Grow up for cying out loud and use your brain! Jesus Camp kids were never told to take up arms and kill- just "war" through prayer. Will my kids ever go to one those camps? No; Bbut innuendo from film producers with an agenda does not a cult make. I'll reserve setting my final opinion of Fundamentalists, Evangelicals and Charismatics when I see them taking up weapons, performing acts of terrorism and fundraising for the same. "

To JamFan wrote on Oct 11, 2006 8:51 AM:

" Talk about brainwashed! I think you're in a cult. Are you trying to brainwash others by promoting your beliefs? It sure sounds like it. You're an evangelist of a different sort, but ONLY because your message is different. Your methods are the same as any Evangelical who opens their mouth and speaks? What's the difference?