Bismarck Tribune - North Dakota News - UND Sioux name<br />carries tradition

UND Sioux name
carries tradition

Jun 28, 2006 - 02:09:25 CDT

By MYRA NORTON
Bismarck
and CHARLES STOWMAN
Valley City

The many loyal University of North Dakota alumni, students and supporters would not have predicted the situation for the Fighting Sioux logo.

UND was established in 1883 with pride in affordable education and established strong traditions. Until 1930, UND was referred to as the Flickertails. Our name has been Sioux for 76 years. This name was chosen with careful deliberation. It was meant to honor our North Dakota heritage and the proud Sioux Indians. The present logo was designed by an American Indian from Belcourt.

American Indian tribal chairmen and college faculty come and go. The actions of Ron His Horse Is Thunder, David Gipp and some UND faculty members have been detrimental. Do they really represent the Sioux nation? Yet, the damage has been done.

Perhaps a fair solution is to remove the American Indian programs and faculty from UND. They could easily be transferred to United Tribes Technical College or Sitting Bull College or Haskell Indian Nations University in Kansas.

UND will survive, a reminder of the undefeatable Sioux Indian spirit. There will be a backlash from the silent majority. A watchful eye will be kept on additional funding for tribal colleges.

We are UND alums. Ralph Engelstad was our stepbrother. He was a private and generous man. He did not pander to the current trend of political correctness.

News > Opinion

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carries tradition

Comments

lilzinter wrote on Jul 12, 2006 7:17 AM:

" Sioux Yeah Yeah! "

missy wrote on Jul 11, 2006 4:09 PM:

" from what I've read, you are all keeping the fires blazing. Do away with the logo. "

JMc wrote on Jul 11, 2006 9:57 AM:

" As an alumni of UND, I think it is ridiculous that the NCAA just decided(I guess they had nothing better to do) last year to put an end to nicknames that THEY think are hostile and offensive. Well, who appointed them to change nicknames? Are we, the majority, supposed to suddenly buckle under the pressure of the minority and get all? I think it would be a travesty to cave in on this one. I hope UND and all the remaining schools on the list win in court. I'm Irish, have followed Notre Dame for 40 years and love the "Fighting Irish". Why hasn't the NCAA gone after them? "

So 'sioux' me wrote on Jul 11, 2006 9:45 AM:

" But you know it isn't racism unless a white christian conservative republican says something. "

To Mike R., wrote on Jul 10, 2006 10:24 PM:

" I agree, scroll down and read some of these posts; white people are being subjected to ALOT of racist remarks. "

to MIKE R... wrote on Jul 10, 2006 6:34 PM:

" I think you need to scroll down and READ. "

Hemacha wrote on Jul 9, 2006 12:36 PM:

" I just want to add my 2 cents, as an out of state alumni. I support the fighting sioux 100%. This is history in the making..Remember White Stone Hill, it was there that my ancestors survived. It was there that we lost alot of Sioux people..Those who survived Faught long and hard. My great Gramma was a young lady, she ran with my grampa who was alittle boy..and crossed a swift current. She survived because she wanted to her and my grandfather to live. This is why I live, this is why we as a Sioux Nation live. I don't wanna bad mouth anybody, because this is not our way. Instead we only seek out the best education for our generations to come. Thank you "

MIke R wrote on Jul 9, 2006 10:15 AM:

" to what a wast of time: What racist remarks? The real problem is caused by people like you who see racism all over the place, even when it doesn't exist. "

What a waste of time... wrote on Jul 7, 2006 9:32 AM:

" So people, it takes an article like this to bring out all OUR finer aspects of being human beings??? Regardless of what race we are, arent we all mothers? fathers? brothers? sisters? uncles? aunties? grandparents? It is so sad to see such discriminative remarks made at all races over such a trivial matter. I would hate to see what would happen if it was something serious. People, grow up and live life. "

cb wrote on Jul 6, 2006 6:34 PM:

" to waronracism and stepintomyshoes,Ok, you say you don't want to leave the reservation because people on the outside are too racist and don't respect you. I'm sorry to hear that there are still those kinds of fools out there who will name call and just simply act in a completely inappropriate manner towards people of different backgrounds, but, do you think that if you are insistant on setting yourselves apart instead of mingling in with the rest of american society as other people of different races and backrounds have done, that things are ever going to change? Keep in mind that, believe it or not,we face the same kind of racism and intimidation from some of your people, it's not just all one sided even though you may like to believe it is. There will always be jerks in this world, but those are the kind of people that you just have to turn the other cheek to and show them that they have no power over you. Prove to them by being honest and hard working (as we all should be)that you deserve their respect! "

Stepintomyshoes wrote on Jul 6, 2006 1:20 PM:

" I am Lakota Sioux and I attended UND. I graduated and went on to work in the field I went to school for. I am proud for that. I want to let you know that I was neutral in this issue but when I noticed other natives telling their stories of racist remarks made towards them, I started to rethink my opinion. I myself haven't been harrassed at UND, but I have been... since I was 13 years old, here, in Bismarck. I am now 26 years old and I feel proud of my college accomplishments. I don't feel proud though, of being watched like a hawk at stores, being asked my views of the name issue, being called obscene names. In Middle School, High School, I would be walking home from school and I would get remarks from cars that go past me. Words hurt and yes I was only 13 when I first heard it all. I think that this issue will always be an issue, what needs to happen is that this city needs to understand that Native Americans are like any other person. I can't take away the hurt from when I was 13 but I can share my culture with you if you are aware that I am like any other human being on this earth. Check this site out and see what I would think about this and then how would you feel? Is this being "honored"? http://www.und.edu/org/bridges/index2.html "

To waronracism wrote on Jul 5, 2006 4:08 PM:

" Could you embelish a little on your desire for equality? In what areas, specifically, are you not equal? In our discussion of elected officials, your vote counts for just as much as anyone else's vote. "

waronracism wrote on Jul 5, 2006 3:06 PM:

" Heres the data. Native population 4.79%, whites 91.74% in ND. That is the census word(whites). How much of a difference is our vote going to influence an election? We have roots and want to stay put does that make us savages and all this other negative that people want to believe. We don't need your sympathy we need equality. I think the reps for ND are doing a good job, but if it comes down to native or non native who are they going to side with? The govenor showed his true colors. "

To waronracism wrote on Jul 5, 2006 10:23 AM:

" Taxation without representation?? I'm confused. Being indian means that you do not have the right to vote? As a U.S. citizen you have the right to vote. If you can vote, you are being represented. If you don't feel that your Senators or Representatives are doing a good enough job of representing you, vote them out at the next election. "

So 'sioux' me wrote on Jul 5, 2006 7:59 AM:

" If the native (who are no more native than I am because they immigrated from Asia over the Bering Strait ice bridge to North America) are so concerned over tarnishing their image, they need to begin in their proverbial 'teepee'. A gang of 4 or 5 'savages' brutally attacked a young man down on the 'Desert" in Kimball Bottoms. They surrounded him, got him down and proceeded to kick him in the face 4 or 5 times. My son and his friends stepped in and got the young man to safety, and tried to avoid any further confrontation. But yet the "kind, gentle, fun-loving" thugs continued to threaten my son's friends. Eventually a 'brave (?)' drunk red man (if I can be called a white man, you can be called red) grabbed my son, threw him against a car and threatened to stab him. My son, a highly trained United States soldier, warned him that if he planned to stab my son, it better be good, or he would have to protect himself. The thug backed off, but then mamma stepped in and began to push my son around (I suppose this was a mommas boy!) Ryan warned sonny to tell his mom to back off. My son did what a true man would do and walked away. He could have legitimately fought back, but didn't. Now if he would have, no matter what the circumstances, his actions would be considered a hate crime. The tribal council would sue, the ACLU would say my son violated the savages rights, whatever. So why isn't it a hate crime when Caucasian (the correct term) young men are attacked by the noble warriors? It's because the US is forever apologetic to a few for acclaimed wrongs done to the red man. If they want to be respected, then act respectable. If you want acceptance, then accept others. Public image is not the responsibility of the viewing public, it's YOUR responsibility. So act like you want to be treated! "

waronracism wrote on Jul 5, 2006 12:11 AM:

" You didn't swindle canada. I am not sioux, I was reffering to a comment that Tex Hall shouldn't speak for the sioux but it was alright for a different tribal member to create the logo. We're sovereign when it is convenient to make excuses or blame us for wanting better. We are under the United States rule whether you agree or not. All I'm saying is decisions are made for us without our input. We want better but are stuck because we are oppressed by poverty. When we have our own fighting for us then we can get unstuck. The fighting sioux senators? "

tom wrote on Jul 4, 2006 8:36 PM:

" Its a losing battle to save the nickname, the harder you fight, the worse the school looks, its a fact. Its not your name to take, if some people are offended, good enough for me, lets lose it. I'm UND alumni and I fully support changing it, time to quit playing cowboys and indians ladies and gentlemen, lets all grow up. "

Mike R wrote on Jul 4, 2006 2:24 PM:

" To waronracism: You are now missing the point more than ever before. Tex Hall is allowed his opinion just like anyone else, but he cannot attempt to speak for the entire Sioux nation that he is not even a part of. That is common sense. As far at the artist not being a Sioux, please read my last comment, then tell me. How many Sioux artists were there at the time that could have done the logo and expressed intrest in doing so? Where were the objections to the non-Sioux artist back then before the logo was adopted? You say the name was tolerated by your forfathers because they were uneducated? Shame on you. I bet you don't stand face to face with many of your elders and make that statement. And finally, you want your own senators in our government? How completely absurd. You are a sovereign nation. Why would you want representation in a government of another nation? Canada does not have any US senators, and neither does Mexico or Iraq. Why would we have senators from any other sovereign nation, including the Sioux nation? That doesn't even make sense. "

waronracism wrote on Jul 4, 2006 11:17 AM:

" Why is it not right for Tex Hall to speak because he nots sioux but it's alright for the artist not to be sioux. Double standards to fit your argument I guess. It's the same reason the "N" word become unacceptable for the black person. We were uneducated and took things back then, we want equality. We also want our own senators and representation of our people. No taxaction without representation. "

Irish Lassie wrote on Jul 3, 2006 11:10 PM:

" I am not at all a fan of football but I sure do love Notre Dame for no other reason than they are the Fighting Irish. It hasn't even crossed my mind to be offended at the use of the name or be offended that an Irishmen may not have drawn the Leprecaun they use as a symbol. I must be missing something because I don't understand this debate at all. The Irish were once the "natives" in Ireland for the centuries they were oppressed in their own country by England. I am happy as can be that now someone is cheering the Irish on! Even if it is just in a football game... "

MIke R wrote on Jul 3, 2006 11:55 AM:

" step back in time 60 years misses the point. The point I tried to make (and a darn good one at that) is why weren't the native americans offended 50 or 60 years ago by the name? Why be offended now if generations of native americans before were not offended by the exact same thing. Yes, times do change. But I think the only thing that has changed here is the perception of a few people (the very vocal minority). Generations of Sioux people were not offended by this fighting Sioux name. Now a handful of people are deeply offended by something that was not a big deal for 70 years. What changed? Did the respect shown by UND change - no. I think the only thing that changed is that now there are a handful of people looking for a cause to support and this is the best they could find. If anything else regarding this situation has changed, please someone inform me. By the way, no one on here ever said that Ron His Horse is Thunder was not native american. You do not need to twist what it being said just to have something to argue about. Also for those people who keep pointing out that the artist who drew the logo was not a Sioux, here is a question. Did the Sioux nation object to that fact when the logo was actually being drawn up? The answer is no, so I think you are a little late to register your complaint on that one. Also, how many Sioux artists were in line for the job? Maybe there were some, I don't know for sure. I do know that if there was a qualified Sioux artist who wanted to do the logo and the tribe made that clear, then I am quite certain that he would have gotten the job back then. Complain about all you want to now. The time to make that argument passed quietly a long time ago. "

To Step Back... wrote on Jul 3, 2006 9:05 AM:

" I whole-heartedly agree with your proposition to "native" americans. Since the race is not native to America but rather migrated over the Bering land bridge 12000 yrs ago, it does not seem fitting that we call them "native" americans. Furthermore, to insinuate that they might be native to this area does not recognize their heritage, by which I mean their Asian ancestors that made the long cold arduous journey to the New World. What do you suggest we call them? Asian Americans I believe is already spoken for. How bout Early Americans? Ancient Americans? Pre-Americans? "

step back in time 60 years... wrote on Jul 3, 2006 12:39 AM:

" okay, I have read all the posts on this, so now the native americans are not even from america, ron his horse is thunder isn't native american and ralph englestad didn't collect nazi memorabelia...just how much more ridiculous is all the trying to justify using the fighting sioux name going to get???? maybe we could go back to the days when indians were not allowed in certain resturaunts and blacks had to drink out of seperate water fountains and ride in the back of buses!! and maybe we could rename the native american people, and they will no longer be native americans at all!! "

Leigh wrote on Jul 2, 2006 12:02 PM:

" I am Cheyenne River Sioux...I do not see why anybody would see "fighting Sioux" as an insult. We did fight...we still fight. The UND School provides Native American's an opportunity to earn a degree in whatever we choose and offers many support alternatives. Go UND!! "

NOT AGAIN wrote on Jul 2, 2006 8:44 AM:

" I talked with a Native American from South Dakota and he said that the Sioux tribe gave UND permission to use the "Fighting Sioux". He also noted that Mr. Tex Hall is not Sioux and should not be speaking for the Sioux tribe. If memory is right the current picture was designed by a Native American. There is no dishonor done by UND. There are more important items on the agenda like the soaring cost of education that should be focused upon rather than a logo fight. Like somone previously memtioned, college is your choice- if you don't like being there- leave! or go to another college of your choice "

Father of a "sioux" wrote on Jul 1, 2006 10:44 PM:

" Maybe I am wrong, but isn't the name Sioux a whiteman word? I have talked to many Native Americans and all have told me that the name is a whitemans name not a Native name. I can not recall what the true name is. My son is part Native and I will teach him to be proud of his heritage both white and Native. But enough is enough, I don't take offense to the Vikings name. even though thats my heritage. I am proud of them as they are showing support for the heritage of the area. Most teams represent the area they are in. To me and alot I have talked to the name Sioux is just that. A representation of the area. Take a look at the Seminoles. That tribe is actually fighting to have the name kept with the team as they are honored by it. We need to do the same here. Show our pride and honor of being a "Sioux" and stand behind UND in the fight to allow them to honor your heritage "

ProudIrishPerson wrote on Jun 30, 2006 11:32 AM:

" To thinking out loud...First off my whole point was that it does not offend me or make me angry that they use a leprechaun on the jerseys. The only thing it means to me is a team name. Next, I have been to UND Sioux games and I haven't seen ANYONE disrespecting the Sioux in the way that you just described the Irish. So the only point you made in your last comment is that you are a bigot. And by the way...Last year I heard someone from the Sioux tribe use the "when I see a leprechaun walk through the door" argument on the news, was that you or is this the only argument anyone can come up with? "

What a waste of time.. wrote on Jun 29, 2006 10:58 PM:

" I think our native people have a lot more better things to do with their time then waste it on the debate of the UND Sioux nickname. I proudly wear my Fighting Sioux athletic wear because I attended UND and was treated with respect and dignity from the students and the staff and the native american programs were outstanding. I dont wear it because of my heritage...I wear it because I think they have an awesome hockey team!!! I am a proud Lakota and would like to see some of the "tribal leaders" time devoted to delinquishing poverty on Standing Rock, giving our people something to look forward too, promoting educational goals for our young people, making sure they are prepared to attend a university such as UND. My son is thinking about attending UND and I will encourage his endeavors. But please people, even though it is apparently a controversy, lets not get hateful and violent. Arent times hard enough as it is? I hope the NCAA makes sure to see actual votes from the reservations and the people who live there. Dont let one person speak for all of us. "

Mike R wrote on Jun 29, 2006 9:44 PM:

" So lets see here. The name has been around for what - 70 years now or something like that? Why all the fuss now? If the name were really that offensive, why didn't the native's forefathers object to it? I am sure that it is not because they were too stupid to realize they should be offended by it. FAct is they were not offended by it because they were proud of it. They gave thier blessings to it. Now after all this time, someone comes up with the idea that they should start being offended by it. If this were a real issue and people were really offended, why did it take so long? Think about that for a little while and the whole issue becomes much clearer. "

thinking out loud wrote on Jun 29, 2006 3:55 PM:

" Ahhh...that was my point, it makes you angry to have someone say something that may not be true, Yes, I know that the mascot is a fictional character, and yet, people get upset because I mentioned them in the same breath. People get upset at the the thought of someone not understanding the difference between a fictional character and a race of people. Oh but wait, if we don't understand a branch of people we can still honor them. I feel it is my duty to honor the Irish by eating some spud's and drinking the darkest beer I can find, while I run around in a leprechaun suit and scream in a bad Irish accent. Truthfully, it is all stupid..there are so many other things to worry about in this world. (I am also a fan of Norte Dame football and love nothing in the world more than watching them kick the bejeuzus out of the Wolverines. "

To all the Offended wrote on Jun 29, 2006 11:01 AM:

" If you're in support of getting rid of the Fighting Sioux nickname and you're not Native American, ask yourself WHY you're offended. Political correctness is a virus that stifles pride. I'm proud to come from a state that still celebrates the Native American culture with Pow Wows. Are we going to let political correctness strip that pride away from the people that surround us? "

UND athletic supporter wrote on Jun 29, 2006 10:54 AM:

" if this wave of political correctness continues, we'll no longer have any opportunity to celebrate the native american culture. let's get rid of the sioux, the indian head logo on all the ND highway patrol cars, the indian head logo on state highway signs and eliminate all references to native americans so no one's offended. is that really where we're headed? "

ProudIrishPerson wrote on Jun 29, 2006 10:32 AM:

" To "thinking out loud"...I am part Irish. And Notre Dame's mascot is "The Fighting IRISH" They are not "The Leprechauns" but they have them on their uniforms. I would not want them to change their name even if it makes people like you to think that Irish people and Leprechauns are the same thing. Their name is part of their legacy as a good team and a good school. Look at UND right now...they are SO PROUD of their name they are fighting for it. This should make the Sioux tribe feel good. If it was being used to put the Sioux down they wouldn't care so much. I guess there are more important issues to me than to sit around and complain because of a mascot that a college is using. But for your future reference, Irish people exist, much like the Sioux, Leprechauns are small people in Irish folklore. "

I NEVER want to be offended...EVER!!!! wrote on Jun 29, 2006 9:06 AM:

" If we never want to offend anyone, ever, in anyplace, then drop all mascot names. Let it be the UND hockey team, or Notre Dame football team. Better yet, how about naming teams after thing we all love or hate. The UND Fighting Puppies or UND Stinging Skeeters, or the UND Fighting This-town-is-boring-and-windy-and-cold-I-want-my-mommys. I want all native (they are NOT native they immigrated from Asia over the Bering Strait ice bridge to North America) americans change all their team names from Warrior, Braves, etc, because I am offended by their team names because those names offend them if we use them. Like I said earlier, what is the offense? Is it the name or the opportunity for someone to benefit from a trumped up issue? Think about that! "

Smedley Butler wrote on Jun 28, 2006 11:07 PM:

" I like "Sioux" and I went to NDSU... Dale Lennon is cool... "

Long Live the Sioux! wrote on Jun 28, 2006 8:16 PM:

" I'm tired of those opponents to the Sioux name who try to use the "Fighting Irish" moniker and say they are just a bunch of leprechauns and they're not complaining--the team isn't called the "Fighting Leprechauns." The name and mascot are depicting the Irish AS leprechauns and if I'm Irish (which is someone's heritage, not fictional), maybe that's offensive to me. Anyway, the problem with this whole issue, is that the whole NCAA process has not been applied equally among all institutions who have Indian nicknames. One cannot pick and choose because one school has the support of the tribe and the other does not. Either leave them be or abolish them all, as well as any other names having to do with a segment of people--Penn State Quakers, Notre Dame Irish, etc. Perhaps we can all follow Stanford and just use a color (Cardinal) as our nickname and a "Tree" as a mascot. We all know what the ND state tree is--the UND Telephone Poles! "

Sioux alum wrote on Jun 28, 2006 8:14 PM:

" There are two sides here. On one side, the name offends a 'small' minority of people, somehow who've gotten the NCAA's ear. From what I've read and heard the past few years, alot of the people speaking out against the name don't even live here. On the other side, it's only a name and one that UND tries it's best to honor the right way. As for any discrimination against Native Americans at UND, that should be punished severely. There should be no tolerance for intolerance. As for R. Engelstad being a nazi, whoever believes that should check their facts. He was a collector of WW2 memorbilia. I myself have an 8mm mouser with the german symbol engraved in the barrel. In no way do I consider myself a nazi. He did throw brithday parties on Hitler's birthday 86 and 88, but it was reported he did so to celebrate new collection pieces. All in all, he was fined heavily for this (1.5 million) and gave up his entire collection. At any rate, it's just a name. I would really hate to see it go (mainly cause there aren't any other good names...flickertails? You gotta be kidding me...), but I'm also getting tired of this continued bickering over something not really that big of a deal.... (please excuse any bad spelling....) "

Honor your Own! wrote on Jun 28, 2006 6:02 PM:

" This could all go away if we just renamed the UND the "Fighting Ralphies", then you get to honor your own UND alumni & hockey supporter, after all didn't he provide the "few pieces of gold" & didn't he have the "in your face" mentality that so reflects the UND Pride! You can always find sell-outs, so saying there are Indians who support the UND mascot is not surprising, the U.S. did a great job of colonizing! (It continues today!) "

Barney wrote on Jun 28, 2006 5:58 PM:

" This is an old topic that will never be resolved and I don't care either way, however I feel that you could have made your point w/o saying all those things about Mr. Engelstad - to me that is name calling/getting dirty and sounds desperate. Mr. Englestad and his wife gave more to ND than just the hockey arena. I'm pointing out that your posts may have legitimate points but when you get down in the mud and start slinging mud it diminishes your argument. Your putting in about Mr. Engelstad and the Nazi connection was mean spirited in my opinion and follows a pattern I have seen from you. "

Deb wrote on Jun 28, 2006 4:59 PM:

" Barney? Where did I name call?? Calling Engelstad a trader of Nazi paraphenalia isn't name calling, it's pointing out a fact. Telling Christie that everyother hockey team in the Big Ten and beyond yell out their sports team is again, just stating a fact. IT's nothing personal against her that she didn't know that. Wow. Stick to the topic Barney. If you want to contribute to the conversation, feel free. "

Barney wrote on Jun 28, 2006 4:45 PM:

" To Deb - I see you are up to your old name calling tricks again - how pathetic that you feel you the need to always name call and demean others in your posts - it diminished your point and really really really makes you sound desperate. "

NKH wrote on Jun 28, 2006 4:38 PM:

" For Sioux-Yeah-Yeah you go. That was awesome. They have no point and can not ever state facts they are just like little kids. The say "just because", that is all they got. I think Mr. Ron His Horse Is His Thunder AKA Ron McNeil should shut-up. I still can not belive that is his real name...Wow with that last name, maybe he should focus on Notre Dame in stead of UND...Go Sioux "

NKH wrote on Jun 28, 2006 4:08 PM:

" To Deb I think the one thing you are missing is where does it stop? It is a sports team that is right, so if I complaing about anything that you classify as trival does that give me the right to change it and everyone should listen? So lets say I am against the Vikings, because I am from Norway? I think that the Minnesota Vikings should quit using my heritage as a team name. Now before anyone starts to bash me. While I am Norwegian I am just trying to make a point. Where will it stop. The PC people in this country are out of control. GO Sioux and Sioux forever. "

Sioux-Yeah-Yeah wrote on Jun 28, 2006 4:07 PM:

" Just two thoughts on this issue and some of the past comments from a current Fighting Sioux. One, the name "Fighting Sioux", i feel, is no longer associated so much with the Native American's as it is with the University of North Dakota. It is now OUR name. It represents US. Secondly, I have asked numerous times of many opponents of the name to give me cold hard facts or how UND is "hostile and abusive". Until all the wimps out there that just want to hide behind the NCAA's "hostile and abusive" allegations can come forward and prove it to me and give me, and all of us, examples and cases, you're all just cowards who hide behind the NCAA. And until then, you're case has no water to float on. "

Deb wrote on Jun 28, 2006 3:41 PM:

" To Christy Johnson: uhm, no offense, but every hockey team says that at the end of the nat'l anthem. "and the home of the GOPHERS!" "and the home of the CRIMSON!" That has nothing to do with pride in native americans. And it brings me back to my original point. THIS IS A SPORTS TEAM FOLKS!! Not your parents or grandparents, not your kids. It's a flippin' sports team that grown men and women are arguing about. Last I heard, there was a war on... but that's a totally different comment board. "

Dan wrote on Jun 28, 2006 3:27 PM:

" Punker, you're a smart man. I wouldn't vote for me, either. ;) But I'm not silly enough to run for office in the first place. I'd rather intimidate politicians from the voting booth. "

Punker wrote on Jun 28, 2006 3:10 PM:

" I wouldn't vote for Dan ;) "

Christy Johnson wrote on Jun 28, 2006 2:42 PM:

" I am proud to say that I’m a huge Sioux hockey fan! One thought enters my mind when I read any article about changing UND’s Fighting Sioux name. It’s the respect for the Sioux during the USA’s National Anthem. Yes, during the United States of America, National Anthem! Instead of saying at the end, “ . . . and home of the Brave!” UND’s Fighting Sioux fans scream, “ . . . and home of the SIOUX!” There isn't hostility, animosity or anger . . . but pride and respect. Pride to be part of something that is bigger then just themselves, respect for the history of our state, for the people that live in the state and our UND FIGHTING SIOUX TEAM! IF you can walk away from that evening and tell me TRUTHFULLY there isn’t pride or respect for our Native American Sioux brothers then I will shut-up. BUT if you can’t, then we all need to ban together and “Fight” for the pride and respect of THE FIGHTING SIOUX! "

Ken wrote on Jun 28, 2006 1:55 PM:

" To "I agree w/Dan too": In answer to your question "besides what is the difference between the Fighting Souix name and other team names"; well, for one, the other names are spelled correctly in your comments. It's SIOUX, not Souix. "

I agree w/ Dan Too! wrote on Jun 28, 2006 1:08 PM:

" I also agree with "Dan's" post and also w/ "alum of und's" post. I never attented the university, but I have been to a few hockey games and have also spoken with other former students there and they are all very proud to be part of UND "FIGTING SOUIX". The hockey games I've been to were so much fun and so fun to see ALL the fans (past students and present) cheer so much and get so into the games. Not once did I see anyone NOT cheer because yelling "Go Souix" or anything like that is discriminating. It was never ment to hurt anyone's feeling, besides what is the difference between the Fighting Souix name and other team names.--(Braves, Cowboys, Indians) Generally a team's mascot is something to bring the school together and be proud of--not fight over. "

Deb wrote on Jun 28, 2006 12:12 PM:

" And just to comment on the editorial in general (which usually gets lost in the non-sequeter comment boards)-- What a subtly rasict thing to say to remove the Natvie American staff just becuase you disagree with their right to defend their image and history. Remove them just like they were removed from America and placed into reservations, hmm? Natives should only be on staff at native colleges- with their own people, right? Wow. And let's not forget who Ralph Engelstad really was -- he's not this amazing benefactor who gave tirelessley of himself for the good of the university. He was a Nazi paraphenalia trading/owning eccentric with a super ego and nothing besides. That UND bowed to him to get the new arena is more of a black eye to this univeristy than changing the moniker could ever be. "

Deb wrote on Jun 28, 2006 12:02 PM:

" Remember, that this is a SPORTS TEAM moniker. I have to concede that UND has done a much better job of using a Native American mascot than most. They are treating it with respect, akin to the FSU Seminoles. However, we still don't have a consensus among our nations as to whether it is an acceptable moniker, like FSU has gotten. If and when they do, then it will be even more of a non-issue than it should be now. If the nations decide that it is unacceptable, then we need to respect their wishes and choose another moniker. Honestly, what will this hurt? Are the Flickertails any less menacing than the Gophers? Both rodents. Both great teams. Remeber that it's the athletes that make a team great, not the mascot or moniker. And honestly, until someone goes door to door to all the alumni and asks them if they will still support UND if the moniker is changed, I have a very hard time believing that it will disrupt the alumni cash flow into the UND coffers. Remember, these are college educated people capable of separating their want to fund a great university from wanting to fund some false idol representation of it. "

What is the real offense? wrote on Jun 28, 2006 10:49 AM:

" Natives say "Sioux" is offensive, non natives say it is meant to honor them. Offended students attend UND anyway. Non offended students are harassed with the stigma of not being offended. My question is this. Is the logo truly offensive by design, color or use OR is it offensive to a select few who choose to be offended and in turn inflame the issue? I am disturbed by the stigma of my German heritage being associated by the Nazi philosophy, but That is just the association applied by certain uninformed or deviously intentioned people. If you take Germany only as a European country, there is no offensive feelings. The ground, the buildings the trees do not offend. If the native americans (who in my mind are NOT native, they immigrated from Asia to Siberia and over to North America) are so offended, they should show that by NOT attending UND or any other college that has offensive mascots. If an offended party injects himself in an environment that he finds offensive, then no one is to blame but that enrollee. It is apparent that those "offended" parties have no intention but to BE offended and acheive some monetary or political gain. In essence what is the true offensive nature of a Sioux team name and warrior logo? Unless the offense is created and brought to a boil. "

NKH wrote on Jun 28, 2006 10:33 AM:

" Her eis the biggest point about the logo issue. The majority is being told what to do by the minority. I still say, what is next. If UND changed the name I GUARANTEE the very next day there will be outrage among the so called Native American leadership that there are no Native American tribes being honored by having a nickname. They always want it both ways. Just my opinion..I could be wrong, but I doubt it...Go Sioux...Sioux Forever "

Dan is "right on"! wrote on Jun 28, 2006 10:26 AM:

" I am both an enrolled member of the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe and a graduate of UND. Read "Dan's" posting today - while some of the rest of you are bordering on ethnocentrism, "Dan" could not be more right. (It's amazing what people will write under the cloak of anonymity!) To Mr. His Horse is Thunder and Mr. Gipp - Why are is our reservation still the "Standing Rock Sioux" if it's such a derogatory name? Thank you, Dan. If you ever run for office, we'll vote for you! "

thinking out loud wrote on Jun 28, 2006 9:58 AM:

" What is honor? Is honoring something showing respect? Is honor something that can be given to a entire nation of people? You can honor an individual. You can honor the ideal that someone has presented. What is honor? To GradsMom, I respect and see your point, when Wild Prarie Roses start calling for respect and an end to hatred, maybe we will have peace with the botanists. It is the same thought pattern as the mascot of Notre Dame, when a group of leprechaun come to the fore-front and start demanding a mascot and name change there, this entire debate will come full-circle. It is the same with the Fighting Sioux. We are respecting and honoring them, just as we honor the mighty leprechaun. Oh wait, the leprechaun is a fictional character and the "Sioux" people are not. "

Must Note wrote on Jun 28, 2006 9:32 AM:

" If the letter is going to refer to "The present logo was designed by an American Indian from Belcourt." You must note that the Turtle Mountain Band of Chippewa with Ojibwa and Mechif/Metis heritage were enemies of the Sioux. Sioux tribes in the state are opposed to the nickname. If you changed the name once, you can change it again. Join the 20th century...Oh wait, it's the 21st. At least the former would still be making progress. "

Dan wrote on Jun 28, 2006 9:23 AM:

" Sure, there are a few outspoken opponents within the tribes. These individuals hold leadership positions within the tribe, and claim to speak for all tribal members. But the facts are hidden. The vast majority of people who are bona fide members of the Sioux nation do not oppose the name or the logo. In fact, their unheard voices are saying the name and logo should stay and that it's an honor to have the premier university sports teams in the state bearing their name. UND's financial support from its alumni would dwindle down to a mere trickle if the university were to bend over and take the politically correct ream job that the NCAA and a handful of liberals are trying to shell out. As a group, UND alumni hold the name and logo in high esteem, and don't do stupid crap like the "tomahawk chop" in Atlanta, or have the tasteless caricature like the one in Cleveland, or hold an offensive moniker like Washington. We have pride in our team name and logo, and respect for those represented. It's time for the not-so-vocal majority to put a stop to the PC nonsense. "

Alum of UND wrote on Jun 28, 2006 9:11 AM:

" As a former student, and always proud Sioux; I feel that the name represent honor and dignity for our students and our University. It was chosen as a respectful name to honor the Sioux, not to cause racial accusations. Has anyone gone to a game at The Ralph and seen the RESPECT shown for the Sioux, or the dance performed by a Sioux tribe member? I think people need to look past the racial aspects of the name, because it has nothing to do with race - it is pride, dignity, courage, and respect!! "

LM wrote on Jun 28, 2006 8:17 AM:

" "The UND logo issue has created further division among Native American people and non-native students on college campuses across North Dakota and the United States. Racial tensions within the city of Grand Forks and elsewhere has dramatically increased to the point of physical violence. As current and future college students, we must bear the unfortunate brunt of this issue. Once again, race and all the negativity involved with this issue has reared its ugly head. Both sides of this issue must be equally examined and a viable solution must be worked out". "

N wrote on Jun 28, 2006 8:17 AM:

" What bugs me the most is those Native American students attending UND that are protesting the nickname. Why would you enroll in a University that has such an offensive nickname? Maybe you should rethink your choice, not the nickname that clearly honors the proud heritage of our state! "

GradsMom wrote on Jun 28, 2006 8:06 AM:

" I agree with the the editorial. I never associated any sort of lack of respect or diginity with the UND Sioux name. It would be difficult to take a team named 'The Flickertails" very seriously. Maybe UND could become the "Wild Prairie Roses". Or would that offend the botanists? It is just as silly as the concept of changing the Sioux name. "

NKH wrote on Jun 28, 2006 7:58 AM:

" To Stop whinning...what is your point. The Sioux logo is beautiful and UND honors the Sioux nation and is very respectful. So those are what are called points can you make any? So maybe you are the one that should stop whinning. Go Sioux, Sioux Forever. "

NKH wrote on Jun 28, 2006 7:34 AM:

" Great letter I just think that it is time to stand up to the PC crowd and say enough is enough.. "

Stop whining wrote on Jun 28, 2006 7:24 AM:

" Stop whining about the nickname already. Its over. How come no one's mad about the 50 years the school was the flickertails and was changed? "

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